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#feedback

Edited by Lost Sols: 7/30/2016 7:41:22 PM
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Stop enabling Bizarro Bungie, it's time for endgame matchmaking.

Edit/prologue: This started as just a small post supporting matchmaking, it has grown into something more at this point. This is the community taking a stand and asking for in-game access to content we purchased, who don't believe they should have to leave the game to play the game. Opposing views are welcome as are suggestions to making the process of teaming up better/easier. Also please consider before calling people lazy or stupid for not just using LFG sites, that not everyone's life experience fits your own. Be it work, family, financial situation, whatever. There are many Guardians who just are not comfortable with playing with strangers. For them, using in game matchmaking is a huge step but one that they can get through. Going to a separate forum and posting for a group is something they will never be able to do and that doesn't make them bad people or any worse at this game than anyone, it just means they are wired differently than you. https://www.bungie.net/en/Forum/Post/126184301/0/0 I appreciate all the support for the post and I hope Bungie are still listening ---------------------------OP---------------------------- There's no more guarantee of success through a random group on LFG sites as there would be with in-game matchmaking. By including matchmaking and making it optional, it would have zero impact on the experience of anyone who didn't want to use it. As the game stands now, without friends on that happen to have not run already, the amount of unplayable content without having to leave the game to search for people is just stupid. [b][u]Raids[/u][/b] I initially suggested a matchmaking solution, but after discussing this with a fellow guardian, I believe an in-game lfg would be perfect for raids. I think the approach to take would be like Gears and Perfect Dark ran their multiplayer. An individual could choose to host a raid, search for raids or be randomly placed in a raid. The host would form a lobby and have the ability to select a minimum level requirement, raid difficulty level and number of open spaces for randoms to join (in case they want to save a few spots for friends to join). Those not hosting could again, browse a list of available raid parties or just select to be placed automatically in one (choosing which difficulty to be placed in). There could be modifiers for whether or not in-progress raids are acceptable or not. This is also how Bungie could solve the issue of no private Crucible matches in Destiny, by doing lobbies hosted just like raids. One thing you found in both Perfect Dark and Gears was that when you are in a lobby and going game to game with the same group over and over, even people that don't talk are talking by the third or fourth game. It's such an incredibly social approach and one I've never understood why Bungie never tried in Halo https://www.bungie.net/en/Forum/Post/129939506/0/0 [b][u]Prison of Elders[/u][/b] The level 28 is a joke. It's a minimal challenge with 3 randoms whether they're talking or not. Once you've run the level 28, you pretty much know what to do in higher difficulties. -Kill enemies. Disarm mine. Destroy mine. Kill target. Revive dead teammate. I’ve yet to have a group talk in the 28, but I’ve been invited twice to do the 34 after and everyone talked in it. There is no reason to not have matchmaking for the higher difficulties and beyond that, it’s mindboggling that there isn’t a system in place to remain grouped from the 28 if we choose and go right to the next difficulty. Another option could be to open the 34-35 matchmaking when we hit 34. A fellow guardian had the suggestion of matchmaking for the 28 and 32 and in-game LFG for the 34 and 35. Either way, we shouldn't be beholden to leaving the game to run them. [b][u]Trials of Osiris[/u][/b] This one is admittedly the most divisive. Most seem to agree there should be some form of MM for the rest. @Nico802vt made the point for ToO that [quote]If they had matchmaking you're most likely gonna get stomped. I bet you'd at some point run into someone without a mic and that is a KEY factor in being successful.[/quote] My response to that is [quote]That's a possibility, but I'd rather have that option and the chance to get in and play (and potentially run into good teammates to form a steady team) than not play at all. If I'm willing to take that risk, that should be my choice.[/quote] There's just no justifiable reason to release a 5 mission 1 strike expansion and make the endgame expansion 90% unplayable without friends on. If nothing else, there should be some matchmade equivalent to ToO, where we can at least meet others who want to run and possibly find teammates for the regular ToO. [b][u]Nightfalls[/u][/b] While I personally love to solo them, there's no reason to not have the option to search for a group for them either. So if you die, you RTO... You do that with a Fireteam too. Want an easy solution? When the randoms enter, [b]put them in a fireteam.[/b] Then if they wipe, they RTO together and can rerun it. There's a lot that is really great and really fun with this game and yet it's constantly undermined by maddening ancillary decisions. -no matchmaking -lack of vault space -inability to delete consumables to clear what little vault space exists -shipping with virtually no default chat options -shifting, confusing and often useless economies -lack of checkpoint or progress save systems for a game with an entire Zoo full of connection errors -virtually no online forum chat presence. Oh look, a thread with a Bungie reply! [quote]I'm moving this to #feedback yadda yadda.[/quote] -ignoring the actual feedback posts with great ideas for improving the game and instead catering to the nerf crowd. You pretty much pioneered console online matchmaking for the original Xbox, but haven't evolved at all in the last decade. ---------------------------------------------------------------- Edit: I gave DeeJ crap for leaving the discussion and accused him of turtling. I’m not going to back off the belief that as the go-between for us and Bungie, he should be willing to participate in more give and take with the community. I understand that sometimes people push too far and I have gone to bat for him in posts where people have personally attacking him, but it is not unreasonable to expect him to accept and respond to feedback to his statement. There are so many amazing posts and stories in this thread explaining why the current system just doesn't work for some people. I hope Bungie are actually paying attention and understanding there are casualties to their philosophy. The vast majority of posts have been overwhelmingly supportive, but there have been a few anti-matchmaking posts peppered in. Some have led real conversation and idea exchange, but most have come down to the same thought process. FEAR. HATE. MISTRUST. FEAR [quote]You’re going to get grouped with AFKers, trolls and people who suck[/quote] HATE [quote]I’m not gonna carry noobs and squeakers through ToO! I get twice the kills in strikes as my idiot teammates!”[/quote] MISTRUST [quote]Most people probably won’t use mics or won’t know what weapons to use.[/quote] I don't understand the notion that we should restrict content for millions, because someone might be bad or mean. You can’t go through life afraid of what might happen. ------------------------------------------------------------ Edit: Back to DeeJ, if you’re going to weigh in on a topic, it’s fair to expect you not just post and leave. There are too many guardians in this post that have valid concerns, questions, and reasons why LFG just doesn't work for them. They want answers and I believe they deserve to be heard and they deserve a response. I would say to anyone who wants legitimate answers and real change towards what we the players want as opposed to what Bungie feel is best for us... Keep bumping for truth. Thank you to all who've commented and read this far. See you all amongst the stars.

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  • Optional matchmaking for everything expect trials. That is actually what makes it so competitive. It nearly guarantees getting matched against a coordinated team. If matchmaking were available, 9-0 would be much easier. Best iv gotten so far is 6-0 then three losing streak

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    • Preserving this here because have more to say in OP. [quote]Edit 4/Prologue: This started as just a small post supporting matchmaking. Thanks to DeeJ dropping the mic on it, it has grown into something more at this point. This is the community taking a stand and as such, I've toned down the language of a couple of the comments from my OP (the points remain unchanged) This post is for the Guardians who don't believe they should have to leave the game to play the game. I stated in a post-edit that I welcome any opposing views, I just ask that you have an opinion of your own and a point as to how optional matchmaking would negatively affect your experience. I would also ask you to consider before calling people lazy or stupid for not just using LFG sites, that not everyone's life experience fits your own. Be it work, family, financial situation, whatever. There are many Guardians who just are not comfortable with playing with strangers. For them, using in game matchmaking is a huge step but one that they can get through. Going to a separate forum and posting for a group is something they will never be able to do and that doesn't make them any worse at this game than anyone, it just makes them shy. I appreciate all the support for the post and I hope Bungie are listening. ----------Original Post-------------- There's no more guarantee of success through a random group on LFG sites as there would be with in-game matchmaking. The only thing LFG sites guarantee is that Bungie don't have to pay anyone to put it in their game. By including matchmaking and making it optional, it would have zero impact on the experience of anyone who didn't want to use it. As the game stands now, without friends on that happen to have not run already, the amount of unplayable content without having to leave the game to search for people is just stupid. [b][u]Raids[/u][/b] Even if Bungie honestly believed that everyone were so bad and so antisocial that no matchmade team could possibly clear them, once everyone's levels progress past a raid there's no reason not to open up matchmaking. The raids are beyond easy at this point. Hell, you have us killing Oracles in the Vault in a story mission. Put in matchmaking and let everyone experience them. [b][u]Prison of Elders[/u][/b] The level 28 is a joke. It's zero challenge with 3 randoms whether they're talking or not. Once you've run the level 28, you pretty much know what to do in higher difficulties. Kill enemies. Disarm mine. Destroy mine. Kill target. Revive dead teammate. Not a hard concept to grasp. I've run 2 level 28. First group the other 2 were in private chat and invited me to a group after. We easily beat the level 32 and yeah we were in chat, but it didn't make one iota of difference. If we'd have been matchmade for the 32 it would have been the same. After the run, one had to log off and so the other left too. At that point, wouldn't it be nice to be able to queue for the level 34? Oh, but we're all so fail and Bungie's challenge is just impossible without randoms found outside the game. [spoiler]Bulls**t.[/spoiler] [b][u]Trials of Osiris[/u][/b] This one is the least understandable in my opinion. What exactly makes this so difficult that it requires pre-made fireteams? It's 3 vs 3 last team standing. Woo hoo. Could you possibly be matchmade with people without mics? Yeah. Is it impossible to kill people without talking? Not even close. All no matchmaking achieves is it makes the actual experience more lopsided than it would be. -Weaker teams are just going to hit buzzsaws repeatedly because the pool of competition is so limited. -The people with fireteams are going to have way more opportunity for etheric light, which in turn is going to widen the level gap faster and make ToO more of a rich get richer experience. If I'm willing to take the chance and queue with randoms for ToO, that should be my right. If I'm at a disadvantage, then it's on me to play smarter. If I have the option to queue with randoms,[b] there's a great chance the other team could be randoms[/b]. There's just no justifiable reason to release a 5 mission 1 strike expansion and make the endgame expansion unplayable without friends on. [b][u]Nightfalls[/u][/b] While I personally love to solo them, there's no reason to not have the option to search for a group for them either. So if you die, you RTO... You do that with a Fireteam too. Want an easy solution? When the randoms enter, [b]put them in a fireteam.[/b] Then if they wipe, they RTO together and can rerun it. <gasp> There's a lot that is really great and really fun with this game and yet it's constantly undermined by stupid ancillary decisions. -no matchmaking -lack of vault space -inability to delete consumables to clear what little vault space exists -shipping with virtually no default chat options -shifting, confusing and often useless economies -lack of checkpoint or progress save systems for a game with an entire Zoo full of connection errors -virtually no online forum chat presence. Oh look, a thread with a Bungie reply! [quote]I'm moving this to #feedback where it can be ignored by the devs.[/quote] -ignoring the actual feedback posts with great ideas for improving the game and instead catering to the nerf baby crowd. You pretty much pioneered console online matchmaking, Bungie. It's sad that a decade later, you have no clue how to do it. ______________________________________ Edit: A couple things. It was unexpected and interesting to see DeeJ reply, unfortunately it ended up being nothing more than psychobabble and he chose to turtle, rather than engage in a real discussion on the issue. So I would say to anyone who wants legitimate answers and real change towards what we the players want as opposed to what Bungie feel is best for us... Keep bumping for truth. Thank you to all who've commented and read this far. See you all amongst the stars. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Edit 2: I welcome all the opposing views to this thread. I would ask though that if you disagree, please let us know why and how optional matchmaking would negatively affect you. It adds nothing to the discussion to say [i]DeeJ is right, you're wrong[/i]. Have an opinion and point of your own. Also in regards to DeeJ dropping the mic, I will restate my 2 rebuttals here that I think deserve a reply. In response to his comment I replied: [quote]I appreciate what Bungie were trying to do, but sometimes you can be too close to something to really see it. That's why authors have editors. That's why musical artists have producers. That's why game companies have play testers. You're wrong on matchmaking, just like everyone who said it would fail in WoW were wrong. Matchmaking actually opens avenues to creating the friendships you so desperately want us to have. In case you missed this reply it in the OP, some reasons for optional matchmaking: Because we work 50 hour work weeks. Because we have families. Because friends aren't on at the same time. Because 3 person fireteams mean friends run with other friends and there's not a spot for you. Because not everyone have smart phones or nearby computers to go lfg outside of the game. Because it's 2015. Because optional matchmaking wouldn't hurt anyone. Because it's not Bungie's job to make us all social butterflies. It's your job to make a great game and let us play it. Because we're trying to play and love your game and you're putting up barriers that make no sense. Do any of those reasons help clarify things?[/quote] [quote]Let me ask you this DeeJ. When you get off from working all day and you finally get home, do you want to go get on the internet to find some people to go play Destiny with? Or would you rather just [i]play Destiny[/i]? I'd rather just play Destiny. [/quote] The point of these forums is to talk out what we don't see eye to eye on, so let's talk. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Edit 3: Not just to sit here and just say matchmaking should be implemented, here is a possible solution to how to do it and retain the integrity of the experience: [b]ToO[/b]- Must be level 33 to queue for optional matchmaking. [b]PoE[/b]- Optional matchmaking for level 32 unlocks when you hit level 32. Optional matchmaking for level 34 and 35 unlocks at level 34. [b]Nightfall[/b]- Optional matchmaking unlocks at 32. [b]Raids[/b]- Optional matchmaking unlocks for normal mode when hard mode releases. Optional matchmaking for hard mode unlocks when the next expansion releases. Fair, easy and simple solutions. Ready to discuss it, DeeJ?[/quote]

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      • Great job man with the updates/edits. Just goes to show how important this subject is to the community as a whole. Fight the power.

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        • Edited by II Stargazer x: 5/28/2015 8:49:29 PM
          Bungie should know this, ESO is soon to release on console, it brings with it hours of gooey content, a more robust character customization, hundreds of missions, vast areas of which to explore, public events that require everyone's help, a much more respectable RNG system, trading, robbery, crafting and all this without leaving the game, granted some of the places require groups to enter but they are not restricted to end game elitists. take note Bungie, if you do nothing, you will loose players to the much bigger and more EPIC story that is ESO

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          • Bump

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          • bump!

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          • FYI, it looks like High Moon Studios is being brought in in a "mission design" role to help work on Destiny for the foreseeable future. There might be some hope for fans of this game (I'm not one anymore) having a competent developer on the job. Might even get optional matchmaking. Either way, with almost 7 years to develop & half a billion for budget, its amusing to know Bungie still can't get its sh*t together and needs a more competent studio brought in. Keep your fingers crossed, maybe Bungie will slowly get edged out in favor of devlopers who know what they're doing. Not likely, but one can hope.

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            • bump!

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            • Nicely done. Bump with respect.

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            • This is amazing.. You should work for Bungie

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              • Bump

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              • bump!

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              • daily bump

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              • I've noticed several polls on this topic. Most of these polls hover around 75-80% for matchmaking then a few against and a few who don't care. Take out the ones who don't care and it's probably closer to 90%. By the time Bungie wakes up matchmaking won't matter because the player base who wants it will be gone. I've played since Beta (probably 1000 hours by now) and will continue to play HoW because I bought the expansion(and I like the game), but not sure after that. At times I've hade decent success with LFG sites, but it's absurd that a "social" game has virtually zero in-game social aspect for [b]endgame[/b] content. I understand there may be problems with AFKers and trolls, but if you encounter that all you'd have to do is create a fireteam with the other 4 non-trolls go back to matchmaking and then all you need is one guy who isn't a moron. The trolls will eventually realize acting the way they do is getting them nowhere and will change or quit. Bungie has a great team I know they can figure out a way to implement this but, as I said earlier will it be too late by the time they do?

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                • Edited by QuackFever: 5/27/2015 8:32:26 AM
                  https://www.bungie.net/en/Forum/Post/124716170 The more posts we can make, the better. I hope it's ok to link this. I'll post it here too. A thousand people have asked for it a million times. Optional match-making. Consoles are for the casual player. The living-room gamer. Sure, they’re used by hardcore gamers. And some that consider themselves hardcore gamers. But the console market was, and is, primarily made up of casual players. Players who play as a hobby, not a life. They’ve got a console becase they couldn’t justify the money for a gaming PC. Or because a console is simpler (as well as cheaper). A console is geared toward making it easy to game. Every online multiplayer game on consoles has a built-in matchmaking system. A system designed specifically to find you people to play with. Sure, it matches you with random players. Some of them are absolutely terrible. Some don’t play, especially in a game like Destiny. I’ve only been playing since March, and I’ve seen my fair share of AFKers, and players without mics, and players who couldn’t find their asses with a map and both hands. I’ve also run into players that made an effort, even with a damaged mic, to communicate during a boss fight. Who used the emotes (wave) to signify understanding. I played my first run through the Level 28 Prison of Elders with a fella from New York who also ran a Defender Titan. We wrecked that shit. We communicated. This is a dude whose name I don’t even know, and we had a great time. Sure, 28’s not hard. But I have no doubt that I could have run 32 with him. Or 34, eventually. Even without being partied up, or match-made, I’ve encountered some really awesome folks on Patrol. Hunting down the Wolf packs with a group of randoms. Waving thanks when they revive me, and sprinting to revive them. Hell, one dude who invited me back to Patrol with him when I lost connection. We ended up running Patrol on Venus for a good hour together, just hittin’ Wolf-packs and collecting special synths. Even one fella on the Moon who gave up his opportunity to farm the Ether Key chest just so that myself and another Guardian could find it. These people have all been random, and I remember these incidents way more than any AFKers or terrible match-made Strike partners. Sure, I know I had them, but they don’t stick out in my memory like these folks do. Even further back, before Destiny, with Halo 3. The “Party Up” option led to countless hours of fun after being randomly match-made. I loved it. I’m pretty terrible at PvP and I loved it. And it was possible because of the match-making built into the game. Not all randoms are bad. I’ve had more successful strikes than not, using random match-made players. Players who I’ll likely never see again. They’re out there, and they’re good battle-buddies (most of them, at least). I’d run into a lot more of them if more of the game had more match-making options. Look, I’m a young man who lives on his own and supports himself. I work a minimum of 50 hours a week. I’ve got four pets to take care of. One of them’s a blind old dog that pees and poops on the floor at least four times a day. My girlfriend takes care of her parents’ house, and her father recently went through some medical issues that laid him out for about three months. I don’t have a ton of time to game. I don’t have time to trawl LFG sites for random players. The few times I’ve tried I haven’t even gotten replies. And honestly, even when I have time, I [i]refuse[/i] to use LFG sites. Either way, I’m going to get random players. I shouldn’t have to find them myself. Not in 2015. And then, in the updates Deej/Bungie bemoan the lack of players completing raids? That’s a real slap in the face. It’s like criticizing a tennis player for a bad performance after you took his racket away and made him use his hand. You break our knees and then bitch when we don’t run your race. Complain that we don’t even try. Well no, mothertrucker. [i]You broke our friggin’ knees[/i]. The hell did you expect?! Quit ignoring the community. You, the community, and the reviewers know that optional match-making wouldn’t hurt a damn thing and could actually breathe some life into this increasingly stale game. Those who feel that they're too good for match-making won’t have to use it. Those that have a stable group of friends that play can [i]keep using that group of friends exactly like it’s always been[/i]. It will hurt nothing, and will help everything. And mayhap, just mayhap, I can actually run a damn raid in the little time I get to play. Or finish my first damn Nightfall, even.

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                  • Edited by Kuvnoz: 5/27/2015 10:34:48 AM
                    Here is my normal LFG weekend. Now a bit more tedious with PoE (more non MM content makes for more LFG). Maybe the same as it used to be just NF and VoG for me. Log on, collect bounties, complete bounties, complete weekly Heroic, maybe daily heroic, complete 28 PoE. A pretty quick process. Go to orbit, go to #recruitment and look for NF groups, respond to several LFG posts via invites or friend requests (which, IMO, is a bit of a pain as this is a console, not a computer), wait...wait some more...probably no response so back to LFG, respond on the app as well as via friend requests...found a group! Complete the NF! Anyone wanna run PoE 32? Maybe one guy. "Hey invite your friends" Wait another 5 minutes. Go back to LFG. Maybe find another. Maybe. Get frustrated, other dude leaves. Back to LFG. Maybe you just completed the NF on one character and you want to get another one through the NF...why not ask the group the just completed the activity with! In my experience you've got far less than a 50% chance of the group needing to do it again. Back to LFG... This just repeats itself on my gaming weekend evenings. Every weekend, with exceptions few and far between. End rant. NF is NOT so hard that MM wouldn't be beneficial. Depending on the Strike, I will solo it quicker than the time it takes to find a party via LFG and complete the activity that way. 28 PoE is not bad. My limited experience with 32 PoE says the same thing, we did not use mics, we just went in, played, and won. Unlike NF though, I can't solo 32 PoE. Raids are a different animal. Do I think there will be a whole lot of success completing raids via MM? Honestly? No, I don't. Is it possible? Sure. If MM is optional and you can still utilize LFG or your standard raid team then no one loses for giving players a choice. Consoles are NOT an ideal platform for this LFG crap. They're just not. My "friends" list is a group of strangers that I met once via LFG for NF and the VoG. Of the 40ish people on there I get random invites from a few of them...cool...that's a LOT of LFG to get invites to run flippin patrol or Cruicible (and not use mics? Why invite if your not going in to communicate and win?), or get invited to an activity you've already done (which I will do again as I hope to get the same courtesy if need be). At the end of the day, LFG will get you a group. If it didn't I would have far fewer NF completions and maybe 1 or 2 VoG clears. But why should it be this tedious to just be able to play the content that is in the game? Seriously? I like Destiny, I want to play Destiny, but I don't want to have to dig around the bowels of the internet to do it. Strikes are only fun for so long before the lack of rewards is no longer...rewarding. 3 man activities, any of them, are very well paired to in game MM. Bungie loses nothing by adding MM to these activities, or even the 6 man activities. Let the choice be with the players. Lock out MM to players who don't meet the level cap if need be as it's a better option than what we have now. Want to run NF or 32 PoE? Be 32. Fine. Whatever. 31 would work 90% of the time of the player is competent, but again, it's better than no MM option at all. One level down for the required activity is not that big of a deal. How many times was CE HM cleared? Two levels down would be a burden most of the time IMO and I'm not too proud to say it. At the very least meet the players in the middle here.

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                    • http://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2015/05/07/everything-in-destiny-needs-matchmaking-yes-everything/

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                      • Edited by DiGiDaWG: 5/28/2015 4:18:55 PM
                        [b][u]Bizarro Bungie In Full Effect. [/u][/b] This week's community focus speaks volumes about the direction this game [i]won't[/i] be taking. Deej pops onto this thread, makes Bungies "philosophy" clear and then turns turtle. Not even a.... "We are looking at this feedback." I understand that a community focus has to be about [i]well community of course. [/i] but what Bungie don't seem to want to acknowledge is that a very significant part of the community of this game are excluded from huge and important pieces of said game. I will probably continue playing until I get my characters leveled soloing nightfalls, but at the end of that long process I won't even consider buying the Comet unless optional matchmaking becomes a thing. Yes sure I could use an lfg site and manage to do some of the non matchmade content but like the majority of Destiny's players I just want to play the damn game!

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                        • Bump

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                        • Bumpage

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                        • Bump.

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                        • Glad to see this topic still has momentum. Keep bumping and liking folks!

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                          • Glad to see this is still getting recognition!

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