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Edited by Madman: 3/6/2015 8:19:34 PM
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Addressing Concerns Regarding John Hopson's Statements on Loot at GDC

[url=http://www.kotaku.co.uk/2015/03/05/bungie-explains-really-killed-destinys-loot-cave]Yesterday, at GDC, Bungie's John Hopson discussed why they killed the loot cave, and he demonstrated how naive and ignorant Bungie is regarding their game and their players' experiences.[/url] I apologize if a couple of those words come off as harsh, and I'm fully willing to admit that the following may be taken out of context (as it's reported by Kotaku after all), but I honestly find some of this alarming. I don't want to get hung up on the loot cave stuff. Instead, consider the other things Mr. Hopson reportedly said at this panel. [quote]One person got up to ask why they didn't have a Gjallarhorn despite playing for over 700 hours. Hopson said that unfortunately, someone had to end up being that unlucky.[/quote] So let's just consider this for a second. Bungie purposefully designed a system in which they acknowledged some of its player base would have a frustrating, unfulfilling experience. And they're okay with that. For the record, my personal experience is 450 hours and no Gjallarhorn. It really isn't all that uncommon for players to chase specific things in the game (despite the fact that there are mostly no ways to chase most of the desirable things in the game) and invest weeks of their lives into the game and not get that thing. And then, when it finally happens, if it ever does (statistically speaking, there's no guarantee), it's likely going to come from a low-level greg in the Cosmodrome. Not because we're pounding loot caves, but because the reality of the game (which Mr. Hopson seems to not know) is that most of our desirable gear has come this way. If it doesn't come from a random drop off a random low-level combatant, it might come at the end of an activity we've already completed ad nauseum. Thus, obtaining this stuff is neither memorable nor fulfilling. And Bungie is okay with this. Furthermore: [quote]Hopson mentioned that Bungie didn't expect the random drops to be as big of a deal as they ended up being. What they were expecting was for players to simply buy better gear, and to have random drops act as the cherry on top, so to speak. Instead, players have latched onto the RNG, and it's affecting their perception of the game.[/quote] Tell me, what better gear did they intend for us to buy? Is there some vendor hidden in some corner of the tower that offers max. light level gear? Is there a vendor in the tower that sells gear that isn't ultimately irrelevant? Of the gear that is offered in the tower, is there a plethora of variety for us to choose from? Where exactly is this better gear that they intend for us to buy? Certainly, Xur offers us exotic wares, though his offering is pretty limited. As well, the use of exotics is also limited. But beyond Xur, there isn't really much that we can buy that's ultimately useful and/or desirable. In terms of armor, the vendor gear is not varied, and it's ultimately a stepping stone to max light level gear, so there's little incentive to buy a bunch of it and mix up stats and perks. Not only is the effect minimal, but there's just no point in grinding to build up gear you're inevitably going to dismantle for scraps. As weapons go, most of them just aren't very interesting, and unless we need attack level 331 weaponry, we're better off holding out for favorable rolls in the wild. If we could reroll or customize gear that we could buy... These two statements, however, concern me that Bungie is not fully aware of the realities of their game. Perhaps the intention was to offer us the ability to buy great stuff, but the game we have limits us severely in that regard. If there were a greater variety of stuff on sale, if it were desirable, and if it were accessible, it might be a different story. But the statement that Hopson thinks we like the RNG mechanic, that we've "latched onto it," is worrisome. We haven't latched onto it for any other reason than that we just have no other options for obtaining this desirable stuff. Also the RNG mechanic in its entirety is fundamentally flawed and uninteresting, but that's a completely different topic. For now, I just hope Bungie isn't misinterpreting what their data means. Just because we're hunting engrams instead of buying stuff from vendors doesn't mean we prefer hunting for engrams. It's just that Bungie's vendors are extremely limited in their use and appeal.

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  • What I get from this is bungie is clueless, out of touch and living in lah lah land I suspect they will continue on their current trajectory, because the disconnect seems ingrained and deeply rooted It seems that all the crap stuff players dislike, bungie feels is just the greatest thing since sliced bread

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    • Omg. Random loot is not a big deal. Its not a new concept. And i dont need my drops to be memorable. I have gally and rarely use it, i do how ever want reddeath, this does not make the whole expirience frustrating for me. If anything i still have something to hope for that i dont have. If playing the game isnt fun then go play sonething else. All you people are on here having debates and writing legal papers over a damn video game. Go look at the world news, there are plenty of real horrible things going on in the real world #gtfo

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    • Edited by The lone genius: 3/7/2015 9:01:49 PM
      Repost: None of the effort I put into Destiny makes me feel unique or special when standing next to another player. We all got our gear through RNG. We all look the same. Destiny's grinding requires a ton of time investment and a lot of players are angry because their investment feels wasted. On top of that, this system is built to completely devalue our investment with each new expansion. Legendary Armor:: Light level has forced us to the point where we all look the same. There is only one complete set of end game gear at a time for each class (two if you count Iron Banner). There is no way of upgrading old existing armor to match end game gear. Even[b] faction gear [/b]is set below the maximum light level despite the ridiculous amount of grinding required to earn that gear. Why can't we upgrade old gear to light 36 in the economy. Shouldn't the raid specific perks and appearance still be enough to warrant earning them as new content comes around? Exotic Armor: I don't think there needs to be any change with exotic armor. I can point out that some are lackluster and very situational. However, that adds to the idea of collection. My only proposed alternative to this would be to have exotic gear and their perks separated by an enchantment process. The gear would still be earned and be exotic, but it would behave like legendary gear until you enchanted it. Enchantment and armor would be independent of each other adding to the cosmetic choice. Legendary Weapons:: You may never play with the gun that was built for your perfect playstyle. RNG only hands out so many legendary engrams. It's not a choice to play the game how we want, but hope that RNG rolls us the right perks. The truth is that it shouldn't be this way. Successful FPS games like Call of Duty and Battlefield both put grinding in place, but they allow the player to choose the perk combinations they want. At least[b] vendor gear [/b]should allow the ability to forge a gun the way we want given their price tag. I think all our random weapons from engrams, nightfalls, and crucible should also be able to be reforged for a price. I also believe that we should be allowed to increase the attack stat of legendary weapons in the economy even if that means unlocking perks again like how exotic upgrades work now. It's frustrating that you may have a favorite gun, but you can't use it in the HoW raid because it does 300 attack. The xp grinding to get the final product via our chosen perk path would still require time investment. We would still make mistakes and want to try new guns. We might opt out of reforging a gun and just see if we like the perks we got from RNG because it's free. Most players would still want to try new DLC guns just to get a feel for a weapon and see if they could find the perfect combination of perks that makes that gun shine best. Not everyone likes the same things and many players want to acquire a collection. Right now our collection is all based on our luck with RNG. Exotic weapons: There simply are not enough of them. You only gave us three/four in The Dark Below. Then there's the question if they are effective and even worth the exotic slot. I have the Crux of Crota. Apparently in order to get Husk of the Pit I am suppose to grind the first story mission? Then grind Eris Morn to reputation level 4. When you consider the time investment you must expect this thing to be a beast. Then I read reviews how the gun sucks and is outperformed by 300 attack VOG legendary weapons. A waste of an exotic slot many say. Why should one of the hardest guns to earn in the game be so mediocre? - some call it terrible - If anything is borderline op or the top of the line shouldn't it be the gear that requires the most effort to earn? What kind of trophy is this to people who bought The Dark Below DLC and put in all that effort? Conclusion: I can't see Destiny growing to its potential when you are asking us to put our hands into RNG for the next 10 years. There is limited choice in the end game, and I don't see how anyone benefits from this design decision.

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      • Edited by AdamMc1536: 3/8/2015 3:57:12 PM
        Longevity of a game is partially determined by the amount of random luck, that manifests as grinding, inherent to the game or a true grind that guarantees reward. Too much will cause players to give up, and too little won't keep people around long enough for the game to be memorable. The gaming world is evolving. There used to be a stark difference between fps/action games and rpg/strategy games. The two are being fused like never before. With that comes the good and the bad of both worlds. Players new to rpg style RNG and grinding will hate that aspect of the game, but they will understand achievement as it is respected in fps and action games. With that said, in a past post I calculated that a specific exotic had a mean time to drop of about 2.5 months if you ran both raids on hard with all 3 characters each week (6 chances per hard raid, 3 characters is 18 chances per week). I was lucky enough to have gotten a Gjallarahorn, but I still need Red Death and Hawkmoon. I complete all raids and Nightfalls each week with no reward. It is the only thing that keeps me playing (plus for longevity argument). However, I am growing weary and bored and have debated quitting on several occasions (plus for RNG killing the game eventually argument). This is why I suggested removing vanguard mark caps and allowing a vendor to sell exotics for 1000 to 1200 marks. It will still take the mean time of 2.5 months. However, now you are guaranteed to get what you want. It will gives players a light at the end of the tunnel without flooding the game with exotics effectively sustaining longevity and removing the weary boredom that RNG creates. On a side note, Deej stated in an article that Bungie's intention was for us to obtain every exotic. At first that seems like a feasible task because they are all new so every drop is a breath of fresh air. However, when you are down to 2 left with no way to influence RNG. The statistics suggest it may take a year or more two finish the task they claimed they wanted everyone to achieve. Like I said above, let us grind it if we truly want it. RNG is good, but it can be cold and salty. Let us feel the sense of achievement for a hard grind instead of misery for not being lucky.

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        • Edited by tacticalxxxpanda: 3/9/2015 3:45:20 PM
          Some games revolve around rng, it's not a flawed system and it's not a poor design choice by bungie. I still need ghorn and red death with close to 500 hours and I'm not complaining because unlike most entitled gamers I'm used to the rng grind from other games. (Although I died a little on the inside when I got truth for the 4th time the other day lol)

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          • Bungie hears what it wants to hear, I appreciate your feedback - but they are just going to glaze their eyes and continue with THEIR vision of this crummy, barebones game. Reason being, they have psychological research that backs that their game is addictive and they only want the addicts.

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          • "Bungie is not fully aware of the realities of their game." Came to this realization in December... Haven't played since.

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          • I personally think that there is a lack of communication. And that is putting it nicely. For months and months they've "heard" our voices and said they would make changes. Changes have not been made. They have made all their changes based on statistics and thus far have ruined the game to the point where I can barely connect with my fireteam. Sure they fixed a few cheeses... But the easiest and most simple of improvements have barely been addressed. I get weaseled out on Crota every Tuesday. And on top of that after hours upon hours (reached hour 600 last week" I cannot seem to get the gun I want no matter how hard I try. The struggle of having to fight an Internet connection to their servers so I can even play is not worth the outcome of getting shit on by a computer program. We grind all day and we all gripe about it on the forums. This game was not advertised to be what it is today. It's fun when it works and if I'm with the right people... But otherwise I have to find a reason toes t on and play anymore.

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          • First, good post and a very interesting read. Now, for what it's worth, I interpret the statement "latched onto" completely differently from you. I read the article you quote and the Hopson quotes about RNG, and what I take away from that goes like this: Bungie is surprised how angry people have been about RNG; people (mostly people posting on the forums) have "latched" onto RNG as a real problem in the game, something that bites, etc., and this has caught Bungie by surprise. So,Madman, I don't know if I'm right but it's possible Hopson isn't saying players love RNG, but just the opposite.

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          • Well, I mean, when the Mythoclast and Crux are entirely dependent on RNG... I kind of [i]have[/i] to latch onto that.

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            • I think it's a little odd that in a system that's supposed to be random, A person can play for months before getting the exotic that they want only to get 3 more within a the month.

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            • I am curious about 'players have latched onto the RNG, and it's affecting their perception of the game.' Has my perception of this game been affected by the loot system/rng? or is it merely one of the issues with Destiny. I got this game for story, - Little if any story in game with only slightly more from grimoire. I got this game due to its reported size (after they said that the beta was only showing a very small amount), - At most 5x larger, and that is likely being generous. I got this game for the co-op, - Mates have barely played since second release due to the lack of the above. One of them probably never will due to finishing a dlc 'campaign' that was greatly lacking. Fact is that the only reason to keep playing this game is for loot hunting, from my perspective there is little else left. As you stated the Vendor items are mostly lacking, even Xur who was to be a 'wildcard' with powerful and exotic weapons is a joke often repeating the same items over and over. Honestly loot is a single symptom of the larger problem, and when a developer starts making excuses instead of finding solutions to the larger problem AND FIXING IT then it shows a obvious disconnection/lack of interest to its consumer base.

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              • Edited by mgzilla: 3/8/2015 4:10:58 PM
                Poop

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              • Edited by Duelblade11: 3/8/2015 3:22:22 PM
                I agree. I got my ghorn after 7-10 hours from my first run in the vault. And my buddy with 5 hours a day only had red death. It's sad, because we were both playing since day 1.

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              • This^

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              • You have my bump sir, very worrying indeed...

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              • They just thought we'd buy vendor gear? Ok. Helmets and chest pieces cost 120 marks each. Then there are the gauntlets and boots. Weapons are 150 marks a crack. Earning marks is relatively slow compared to other games (yes it's a generalization). With a cap of 100 marks earned a week, and a total cap of 200 marks per character that's easily two months of work to max one titan/warlock/hunter. Looking back on things, my mind is blown by the amount of time I've spent on this game. At the moment, I'm just trying to max all of my exotics and gear so as to give myself a reason not to play. It's like a bad addiction.

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                • Edited by Chickenbaccaa: 3/8/2015 2:21:06 PM
                  You're not locked into the room in the chamber of night mission, unless you go in the room. You just have to be ready for one wave behind you, people should play the game before they write bullshit. The loot cave was lame, glad I didn't partake except for messing up spawns.

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                • Interesting post, but I don't agree. My account has nearly 1200 hrs on it and no Ghorn, yet there are people with quite a few hours less than me yet they have several Ghorns. It's the nature of RNG and I accept that. I play for fun and the random awesome drop is icing on the cake. If your game play centers around acquiring those one of two special weapons you want, you'll only be setting yourself up for disappointment. I don't have a problem with Mr. Hopson's second statement. Just about every exotic piece of armor or weapon has been sold at one time or another. I'll concede that how as well as which items are selected for sale by Xur can be both maddening and infuriating, but as I stated above, if you let your chase of a particular item be your sole purpose for playing you'll be left with a negative experience 9 times out of 10. I do like your suggestions on rerolling gear and if it's good enough for IB, it should be good enough for the rest of the game as well.

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                  • No arguments from me on this subject. I just ranked up my Vanguard level and got the exact same chest piece I was wearing. Prior to that I got two energies from the Nightfall. Thank you! I wish there was a great vendor to buy things and RNG does not work. I have never received a good pulse rifle, so I bought one because I had no choice. There are not many to choose from and mine is just fair. This frustrating part is that this game could be so go and so much better but there does not seem to be any acknowledgment of its flaws.

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                    • If you don't like RNG stop playing the damn game. Swear 99.9% of you people have no clue how good you actually have it in this game with gear and exotics being sold by a damn vendor.

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                    • When Bungie employees open up about Destiny they prove their lack of understanding of what they've develeoped. They intended us to buy gear and rng would be the cherry YET the max light level is behind rng. So did the left hand not talk to the right hand during development? They expected players to only play on average of 30min a day. Can you imagen leveling exotic guns only playing 30min a day? That grind is worse than 59-60 in eq back in 1999(that was an 8hours 5days a week for a month zero deaths grind). The fact that they said that the loot cave was slower than grinding strikes without noting a strike modifier to loot would suggest they are horrible at math. Kills per minute flatline several times in strike grinds while in the loot cave there is no fluxuation, it's steady.

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                      • This is depressing as fućk. I really hope people stop praising destiny/Bungie after reading through this. It point blank shows they have absolutely no idea what they're doing, what to do, and no idea about their own game. After this, I'm prepared for HoW to be completely horrible, and it's going to be very easy for me to quit after playing through a couple hours of it. It's just bad call after bad call with them. And maybe a few things they've done so far have been half way decent. But I will not show them gratitude for the things they've done. Every update/patch and what not, should have already existed at launch. With the engram fixing, some exotic fixing (guess they're just giving up on fixing the rest), the faction rep at the menu, etc. It's pure ignorance to not have all this at launch. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this things out, not does it takes months after months to achieve some of these updates.

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                      • Ya why is it that there is no venders geared to us players who are higher level gunsmith and cryptiarch are worthless in the way of buying anything i can understand making high lev armor hard to get but NOT THE GUNS My fav thing is to collect cool and powerfull wepons

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                      • Their vendor gear certainly doesn't work with the half-hour loot cave they call the Crota raid. But I'm sitting at thirty one and a half on both my main and alt, and I feel that the last month or so I certainly could have fallen into that vendor sweet spot they were hoping for. Heck I could still upgrade some weapon slots if I wanted to. I didn't for a number of reasons. I didn't feel there was a reason to own more than one Primary for a very long time. I have an Up For Anything with Crowd Control and the "damage bonus if you reload after a kill" perk that is just amazing. And for the longest time you could simply use whatever primary you wanted and it would be fine for all content. 1.1.1's various nerfs actually [i]fixed[/i] this issue. I know it pissed a lot of people off, but a single primary weapon that worked for everything was a serious loot table / balance issue. Now at least I think a bit between Thorn, Up For Anything, or Scout/Pulse. And hey, I don't have a great scout or pulse rifle... I also felt the need to level all my reps to level three before buying anything. It didn't look like the various vendors had themes or specific weapon types from my casual browsing, and I didn't want to get stuck with an inferior option. I'm still working on that, and it still feels necessary. Of course I'm almost out of range where it matters since I need raid gear now. I don't PvP enough. I also gather enough coins to get Xur exotics fairly often. I can't level these fast enough before getting another, so I'm not really thinking about that slight purple upgrade that I'll probably actually wear most of the time. Heck I still need ascendant shards. Overall the various game systems simply don't provide enough pressure or reward to buy vendor stuff.

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                      • I think, and this is just my interpretation, that when he mentions the "latched onto it" it's in a negative way. Like they thought everyone would love the RNG because we would buy all that cool vendor gear and then get a random drop of good gear making it that much cooler but instead, we've latched onto hating RNG because it's screwing some of us out of the best gear.

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