[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Seggi31 Fox news? Lol. I'm actually a pretty firm liberal. I'd describe myself as a social democrat, but, before that, I'd describe myself as a rationalist, and I will say with confidence that sympathies with Islam as it is practiced in the middle east are derived either from ignorance or a sense of guilt. Yours might be a bit of both. [url=http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/wests-liberals-fail-to-help-says-hirsi-ali-20120415-1x1jh.html]Relevant[/url]. Liberals as a collective need to stop giving a bad name to the liberalism I love and stand up for the rights being crushed by Islam.[/quote]Well I better understand your position now, thanks, though you still seem quite misguided. You see, you keep referencing to the concept of "Islam" as being an inherently oppressive force used equally in many countries, where in reality, just like christianity, how it's applied is defined solely by the people and the leaders of the people. While undoubtedly the people in many countries throughout the world suffer from a lack of basic human rights and are being oppressed by their governments, like the people in afghanistan were, it is clear that the US model of intervention hasn't worked. Have we brought freedom to these people? No. Have we brought rights to these people? No. All we have done is militarily occupy them for over a decade, completely removing and semblance of self-determination any sovereignty they had. These people needs human rights, and need freedom. On that we agree. I simply hold that the US method of intervention clearly has not worked, and these people we're trying to help have received neither. [Edited on 04.19.2012 9:36 AM PDT]