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Destiny

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10/19/2014 9:04:16 PM
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The Ishtar Collective

We definitely need a topic on these guys! So they are a Golden Age scientific project which was doing some excavation and experimentation on Venus. 'Ishtar' is the name of the Babylonian goddess who was considered the diving embodiment of Venus (and the goddess of love, fertility, war and sexuality apparently). They come up in the level where Dinklebot has us access their machines before the Fallen do, only to have Rasputin mysteriously claim them for himself. The Grimoire has some info on them: [quote]The Ishtar Sink region looms large in our surviving knowledge of Venus. Guardians come hunting the ruins of the legendary Ishtar Collective, a sprawling Golden Age scientific project. But the ancient ruins that brought the Collective to the Sink have awakened again. We aren't the only ones interested in the Collective. The Fallen House of Winter has hurled its assets into pillaging the ruins, hunting for some advantage - whether from the Golden Age, or forgotten times beyond. The House of Winter's presence includes constant Skiff overflights in support of ground teams and hints of an improvised command post or staging area in the volcanic Cinders. The situation is degrading into a race against time. We must claim the Collective's ruins for our own - and hope they will warn us what other threats now rise from Venus' acid seas and ancient stone. [/quote] And more about their studies of the Vex: [quote]"The Ishtar Collective studied the Vex with all the instruments and power of the Golden Age. And we must understand the Vex if we are to survive. There are tales of the Black Garden and the Darkness that lives at its heart. If this is where the Vex are born, then finding it is of the utmost importance." - The Speaker[/quote] And also an transcript of some Ishtar researchers pondering a the implications of a Vex simulation: http://uk.ign.com/wikis/destiny/Vex_Grimoire To give more detail here, they have 'captured' a Vex entity and they notice that it appears to be running a simulation of themselves with perfect fidelity. After considering the disturbing implications of this, they come up with the solution of bringing a Warmind into the situation, which will presumably be too complicated for the Vex to simulate/model. So all that is to say, given that the Ishtar Collective is one of the few parts of history that we actually learn about, and practically the only historical incident that we're given a lucid transcript of, then one would suspect it has a large bearing on the overall story of Destiny. What I'm thinking is that humanity arrived on Venus and noticed these Vex ruins everywhere, and the Ishtar collective was set up to study them. The nature of the Vex 'ruins' is that the landscape itself has been turned into a machine - some sort of computer network. When they realised some part of this network was running a simulation of [i]them[/i] they freaked out and plugged Rasputin(?) into the network to vanquish whatever Vex intelligence was residing there. Since this is a Bungie game, with AI characters, the concept of 'rampancy' will surely come up. For those not knowing, rampancy is what happens to AIs towards the end of their lifespan - essentially they reach a certain level of self-awareness, and along with it ambition and ego, which causes an acceleration in their neural/mental development. Unfortunately their physical hardware can not accommodate this growth, so they go insane and have to be decommissioned. It would be possible to keep them stable only if you had a spare 'planet-sized network' for them to grow into. See where I'm going with this? The Ishtar Collective plugged a warmind into the Vex network (that is to say, a planet sized network), unwittingly allowing that AI to become hyper-advanced and in possession of an ego which, shall we say, 'transcends' human interests. Now, you might say that was awfully convenient, that some alien civilisation would have placed some self-developing computer network on Venus billions of years before humanity existed and then left without further ado, ripe for some future human AI to exploit. I'd agree. I think what's happening is more subtle. A future rampant AI has discovered some time travel technology, and used it to create the very thing that it needs for survival - a redundant planet sized network to plug into. So the Vex was created and sent back through time to start this building process billions of years in the past. Note the Vex is not really a super advanced civilisation, it's dumber and more drone like, possessing just enough intelligence/qualities to get the job done. Like an algorithm or a virus. The time travel happens via the Black Garden, which must be in an anti-entropic field, meaning time is flowing the opposite way from normal reality (similar to the Time Tombs concept in Hyperion*). This is backed up by the 'past' Vex being the descendants of the 'future' Vex, etc. When the Ishtar scientists saw the weird Vex simulation, that was the bait. The future rampant Warmind knew that they would come up with the idea of plugging a Warmind into the Vex network, thus ensuring it would survive rampancy and develop into a God-like intelligence. When you kill the heart in the Black Garden, that presumably has some impact on the plan, like stops the Vex traveling back through time, or stops some of them and thus weakens the future AI. I'm sure we'll find out more as the game develops. And also how the Traveler, Rasputin, and other AIs fit into it exactly. * Time Tombs: http://everything2.com/title/Time+Tombs

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  • And people say there is no story. God forbid you have to read a little now a days. It's like other games like halo and gears of war. They had books that explain everything and give back stories.

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    • I really like this theory! Thanks for sharing. It would be interesting if it was Rasputin from the future reaching rampancy (if he survived the darkness in the other timelines) and created the Vex to convert Venus. AI going from saving humanity to erecting its own army to attempt to become the dominant/controlling force throughout time with the end goal of becoming more powerful than the Darkness at any one point as a means of destroying it. Thus, fulfilling its own ego and sense of self preservation. This inspires more thought.

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      • "Illuminati confirmed. 10/10" - IGN

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      • Mind. Blown.

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      • That was amazing. Apply for a job at bungie right now!

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      • The grimoire unfortunately have more content than the game..

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      • Nice post. One thing that occurred to me when I was playing the other day though; [quote] After considering the disturbing implications of this, they come up with the solution of bringing a Warmind into the situation, which will presumably be too complicated for the Vex to simulate/model.[/quote] Dinklebot or Eris (can't remember) states in one mission that the Warminds were a network of AI's & doomsday machines. Doomsday machines to my understanding meaning a type of mutually assured destruction should they be triggered. What we know about the Vex is that they are extremely intelligent. Surely more intelligent than humanity thus able to simulate a Warmind. I propose that if the Warmind was brought into the situation the Vex would either understand that it had essentially lost a zero sum game, or the doomsday element would trigger thus ensuring their mutually assured destruction and ending the simulation.

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      • I love this stuff. Thank you for the great read, every once in a while these forums shine with gems among the many complaints. I went and read the Vex # cards that you linked, that's some messed up stuff to think about.

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        • Related

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        • My mind is blown.

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        • The Vex technology and the black garden's hearth would lead as to new technology? Maybe a black hole gun as heavy weapon? :) I just wondering...the ghost figured out the vex sharing one mind, thats why react so fast. We destroyed the black garden's hearth, probably the mastermind. Why not turned the vex to mindless killing machines? Or even why we cant controlled it?

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          • Thing is, there is a planet sized computer base. Mercury. Which means the vex are the creation of Rasputin. Then they are sent back in time to create new data bases for him on the planets. This creates loops in time that are side by side and explain how the stranger has the ability to come here. The rifle isn't from the future, but from a loop farther into the coil, where Rasputin gets more planets under his control, and the technology is more advanced.

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            • What if Rasputin isn't the only surviving warmind and he is trying to stop another unnamed warmind from destroying humanity

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            • Its my opinion that your Ghost is some sort of embodiment of Dr. Shim. Notice that the AI in the Archive greets your arrival with "Welcome, Dr. Shim". I dont think they were referring to you.

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              • I have wondered if we were gonna see a shrike like enemy from Hyperion. It makes me wonder if all these events are from the creation of AI and the darkness is like the AI god in Hyperion. The traveler is obviously some kind of machine so maybe the darkness is also. The only thing I can't reconcile is where the separate factions come into play especially the vex. It means there are at least four factions of AI at war with each other.

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                • It would've been so cool to a part of the golden age

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                  • Dude. You should google Ishtar. Here. http://www.lasttrumpetministries.org/tracts/tract1.html

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                  • They're ok but ain't got nuffink on the Edmonton Massive.

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                  • My take on the whole Venus thing is that the Vex are attempting to turn Venus into a Vex processor or computer or something, in order to write themselves into the Universe like the Grimoire says. They aren't trying to prepare it for Rasputin or anything, they are just running their usual protocols. Now, what Rasputin is trying to do is achieve what he was built for (as described by him in the Ghost Fragment: Mysteries), which is to WIN. That's all he cares about. He even references "her" from the Black Garden, which leads me to believe the Vex actually worship, or at least did until the Darkness kicked her out. Which would also explain why Atheon's name means something about going against God, which could mean he is rebelling against the Darkness as the Vex's new adopted god in order to try to return to his goddess. Now, when Rasputin mentions "her," he talks about how she was stronger than he was because she didn't have to carry the burden of billions of people to protect. So, in order to WIN, he cast off his burden, which was mankind. After doing that, he began to work towards doing everything he could to complete his goal, and he figured out a way to try and integrate himself into the Vex system on Venus, or at least to exert some level of control over it. However, he hasn't managed to accomplish this yet, so he is still trying. That's why he pounced on the opportunity to get into the systems at the Collective after you opened them up for him. Now, what he plans on doing after that, I have no clue. But I do think that he plans on waging an all out war on the Darkness using every ounce of lost human technology he can take control of, the Vex's systems, and anything else within his grasp. But this time, because of his isolation and his possible rampancy have both caused him to come to the conclusion that to achieve this goal of winning, he must ignore human lives in order to accomplish what he was made for. He sees it as the only way to accomplish his programming.

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                    • Those cards with Shim and the members of the Collective are some of the best, for sure. I am also a fan of the "Human" cards which tell the story of encountering the Traveler on Mars, and some of the aftermath. There are some very serious and cool Sci Fi themes running behind the scenes in Destiny. They are easy to miss. It's always good to see them articulated by those who are paying attention, and find it cool. Kudos.

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                      • Are you suggesting that Sekrion or Atheon is the warmind? Or that the entire subsurface network on Venus is the warmind? I'd buy both, but I do find it kind of odd that a warmind would restrict itself to a physical form.

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                        • this is so deep. seriously well done. I love all the lore theories in this game

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                        • You are now my friend.

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                        • Glad someone actually has a brain in this community.

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                        • The whole concept of the Vex and their time travelling legitimately gives me a headache. ...But in a good way. They are truly interesting enemies, for sure. Worth a read.

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                        • very good theory. I like it.

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