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Destiny

Discuss all things Destiny.
Edited by Happy Jack: 6/7/2013 8:18:41 PM
64

Destiny's Biggest Issue

There is but one concern, well, my biggest concern with Destiny thus far is the inclusion of Aiming Down the Sights, ADS for short, or the ability to look directly down the sights of your weapon. ADS is not wholeheartedly a flawed mechanic, but used in the wrong type of game it can be game-breaking. You may all be familiar with this mechanic, but a refresher. By ADS of your weapon, your accuracy is drastically increased and your movement speed is drastically decreased. When not ADS, or Hipfireing, the opposite is true, you have good movement speed and poor accuracy, and by poor, I mean you only really have hope a hitting a target at point blank. Now this is great for tactical shooters, (generally with longer engagement distances, such as ARMA, Red Orchestra, Ghost Recon, etc.) as it forces the player to move cautiously and use cover, considering when you stop to shoot you are a sitting duck. If Destiny ends up being a shooter of this nature, then great, I have no problem with ADS, but I think most of us are expecting something else. Where the ADS mechanic falls flat on its face is fast paced games with shorter engagement distances. We need not look any further than our beloved CoD. Lets look at an encounter from a few perspectives, imagine two players run around a corner and meet each other and proceed to engage. [b]Option 1[/b], they both hipfire, they both have good movement speed so they can try and strafe, but considering the terrible accuracy of their weapons, the winner of this encounter is decided primarily by luck, with an edge given to the player with a weapon more suited for this situation, skill is hardly a factor here. [b]Option 2[/b], they both ADS, meaning the two players are standing more or less still shooting at one another, given the short range they hardly need to aim, and assuming they both ADS at the same time, this encounter is won by having the better or faster killing weapon. Again skill is only a factor is one player goes for a headshot, but considering the other player is already shooting at them, headshots have to be achieved extremely quickly. [b]Option 3[/b], one player decides to start shooting immediately and hipfires, the other takes time to ADS. The player that is hipfireing only needs to hit a stationary target, the ADS has better accuracy but has to take the time to ADS. Either the guy that is hipfireing gets lucky and wins, or the ADS player wins with an easy shot, neither requiring much skill. What you might ask, is a good way to get an advantage in this type of encounter? Well if you've played CoD you might be aware of it. If you are ADS before you see your enemy, you have a clear advantage, but doing so means you can hardly move, so what is the solution? Something we all love, Camping. Long distance is not much different, the only real option being to ADS, meaning near stationary players are shooting at one another, lowering the skill gap tremendously. Now obviously we can compare this to a game without ADS, such as Halo, and we all know how the encounters go, it's about footwork and aim, trying to get your enemy to miss while having better aim, meaning the winner is determined by skill and weapons, with a touch of luck, sure. So while ADS might be a great mechanic for some games, when it's implemented into a fast paced game with short engagement distances and players running around the map, it doesn't work in my book, resulting in a game about luck, weapons, or annoying tactics. However, assuming Destiny is a fast paced game, there are way in which ADS can work. [b]Option 1[/b], get rid of the standard features of ADS, meaning ADS works just like it does in Halo, your accuracy doesn't change, nor your movment speed, the changes lies in your zoom, optics, and FoV. [b]Option 2[/b] I like this one, get rid of the accuracy penalty, meaning hipfire doesn't suck, and instead add a recoil bonus (reduction) to ADS. The movement penalty can remain. This is great as you can engage an enemy and any distance with hipfire, but if you want to zero in on an opponent that is far away and get a faster kill you have to ADS, which can get you a faster kill but puts you at a disadvantage as you are now a sitting duck. Additionally, the guy you are shooting at can return fire (not as effectively as you of course) while still trying to get cover. Well, that was a bit of a read, but the implementation of ADS is a bit of a concern, and I want to have a discussion about it with you all. Bungie is a great developer, and I believe they will implement it correctly, but there is still a bit of a fear that it can really hurt the game. Please, I would love to hear your thoughts.

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  • China called.

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    • From the first videos we've seen, I don't think there's going to be ADS in Destiny. I think it'll be a reticule similar to what we've seen in Halo. You'd have the muzzle and a third of the firearm body slightly off center, but not meeting with the center-screen visuals. It'll be that the Guardians armor is giving you a bit of aim-assist, not in the gameplay itself (please, don't take that the wrong way...), but in the visualizations of the targeting mechanisms. At least, that's what I think.

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      • I don't think your first assertion, that Destiny is a fast paced shooter, is necessarily a given. I for one would definitely welcome longer kill times and more tactical situations being present. In which case, when coupled with the traveler's abilities each class will have, could lead to situations where the ability to aim down your sights will only help gameplay. I dunno. I just think it's something we need to wait until Monday to really get into, I suppose.

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      • You're correct that aim down sights, if implemented thoughtlessly, could be a concern, but as you said, I'm sure Bungie isn't the type to the thoughtless. Altogether a nicely detailed thread that lays out and explains the issue, and explores different solutions. I don't have enough experience with ADS games besides Planetside 2 so I don't have much to bring to the conversation, but good job.

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      • You have to consider that we are facing NPC enemies for a majority part of the game. However, a competitive multiplayer would be nice to have an ADS option, but not make it to where you have to rely on it.

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      • It could work in a way somewhat similar to Bioshock: Infinite, where there is ADS, but hip fire still has similar accuracy to Halo and games where there is no ADS. This essentially makes ADS impractical at short range, but helpful at long range.

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      • I use to play cod competitively as well as halo 2 and 3. I am a much bigger fan of ADS. Black ops 2 to me was absolutely ruined because of hip fire accuracy. That game requires no skill and no requirement to aim. Modern warfare 3 was the best cod yet because of the hip fire perk which even with that on was still not giving you bo2 accuracy, but it allowed you to play differently. I like a bit of realism in my games and while it completely logical to hit a target from your hip in real life firing I just don't like it. It is called triangulation aiming by the way. None of it matters when it comes down to servers, hosting, and Internet speeds. Your scenarios only matter based off who is host sadly. All in all I would like to see Ads with moderate hip fire accuracy. Like 10 meters max. Ads makes it feel more real and I think hip fire players are garbage just to throw that in.

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        • I'd like the ADS to work like most other shooters but without the movement penelty and without the extreme inaccuracy when shooting from the hip.

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        • I am not so secretly hoping that Destiny is the more thought based type of shooter. The fast paced run in and shoot everything that moves is great for smaller map/arena type battles but in a larger world where you are expected to face multiple enemies I want some actual use of tactics. That being said, ADS has to be implemented in a way that works with game style. If it isn't then it does more harm than good. Sure, in the real world a trained soldier isn't going to randomly fire from the hip, but in the real world aiming your rifle doesn't magically slow you to a crawl. One thing that I do find rather annoying is the fact that firing from the hip in many games suddenly makes your weapon horribly inaccurate. You can have the aiming reticule dead on a target and watch the bullets miss. It may only be a "semantic" difference but the weapon itself should still hit whatever it is aiming at just fine. What really changes is your ability to aim at a target. Given this the reticule should be more difficult to hold on target while running and such. Of course this effect would happen both with ADS and hip fire, just to a lesser degree while ADS. Sniper rifles are sort of the exception to much of this. You don't move while aiming down the scope, at least not much unless you have it at a rather low magnification. In the military a sniper carries an assault rifle as well as their sniper rifle, and a pistol for backup depending on unit loadout. That has changed a bit in recent years with a number of SASS setups, either switchable uppers or side sights come into play there. Anyway, agree that ADS needs to be well done.

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        • I don't agree. I find the halo mechanic clunky and the CoD mechanic DOES require skill you have to choose when to ADS mot effectively: round corners, up stairs, etc.

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          • I just hope Destiny will be an Adventure based Shooter and not the other way around...

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          • love it points and totally understand..either option will be awesome just hope it happens

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          • Destiny's biggest problem... Is that no one theorizing about it has ever even touched the game to see how the mechanics that they don't like are being implemented.

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            • I bet it will be Halo aiming but with ADS being more of a visual aesthetic.

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                I like your thoughts, and I'm sure that Bungie's going to take it into consideration. However, there is a chance that they will do what Visceral did with the Thrust Boost in Dead Space. In the scenes where you're flying through space, you have an option to hit boost to speed you up whilst dodging many obstacles. The boost, though, does not actually [i]affect[/i] your flying. You still fly at the same speed, they just added fancy camera effects to make you feel like you're moving faster, since those kinds of scenes are hard to do.

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              • I'm sure the game testers have considered or are currently considering this mechanic. It is, after all, a different thing for Bungie to mess with in comparison to previous works. We'll see what they present at E3.

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              • That is pretty ballsy to say that this is the biggest issue in the game. No one has seen any gameplay footage and no one has really heard anything about combat.

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                • This isn't an issue

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                • Um. Isn't it called iron sights?

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                  • That wall all for just ADS.

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                    • A game without ADS like Halo only has hipfire, so it only has the scenario where players win mostly on luck, according to you. Thus, Halo has no skill and all luck. This topic seems redundant.

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                      • This is stupid who cares

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                        • Borderlands is really fast paced and I think it wouldn't be nearly as fun without ADS. However, you're accuracy whilst hip-firing doesn't take nearly as big a hit as it does in games like CoD. Maybe that's how Destiny should be: only a slight drop in accuracy while firing from the hip.

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                        • To sum it up, if you can customize your weapons with sights, then ADS is pretty much confirmed.

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                          • ... It's fine. No ADS and I'm not buying the game. I think they know the majority of people want to be able to aim down sights. Remember that this game is now open to us PS players as well, so it needs to appeal to a wider audience where most of us prefer ADS. And you don't need to ADS if you don't want to. It's your choice lol.

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                            • I'm going to stop you right at the COD bit and just say no. I hope to dear God that this game is nothing at all like COD.

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