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10/11/2012 2:51:44 AM
63
C.E. -The Trump Card
Was arguing with a guy at work about how great Halo was, and realized something. If there was one singular thing that separated C.E. from its contemporaries (and a lot of games since), it was enemy psychology. No other game did so much to make you believe the enemies were real. Varying states of alarm/quiet...many games still don't seem to have that. Or even non-combat animations half the time.
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Yep. Enemies: -Jackals had a variant panic animation (wildly waving arms) -plasma grenade and needler gave enough time for enemies to react -Grunts and Elites tried to get the stuck grenade/needle off of them -Elites could run around when stuck -if you left the enemy alone for some time, they could revert to what they were doing (patrolling, sleeping) -Zealots could berserk more than once within 5 seconds -if an Elite was in the air and you were nearby, his mid-air melee could do damage. Nowadays, it does nothing, it's just an animation -when shot, the enemies had varying stumble animations. In Halo 2, they just stumble backward. In Halo 3 and Reach, the Jackals always do the same thing when shot in the arm -it was actually a viable tactic to shoot enemies in the legs or arms. If CE marines were smart enough to shoot at unshielded Elite's legs, the Elite would have been finished off more quickly. Nowadays, it's always headshots because shooting enemies elsewhere does nothing -Grunts and Flood had a fun landing animation. Grunts in particular looked like they broke their backs!! xD -search walking animation. Grunts and Zealots! Nowadays, everyone runs Marines: -marines panicked, berserked, and even cowered (if they had the pistol). Nowadays, they just take cover and die. Good for nothings! -Hog gunners raised their fist when you got enough height in the Hog [Edited on 10.10.2012 7:34 PM PDT]
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You must not own many games OP.
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Lol. Under the hood, CE's AI is actually absurdly simple compared with a lot of AI that many people find far less believable and interesting. Halo 1 was where Bungie aimed for "intelligence" rather than intelligence, and absolutely nailed it.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] sdnomdE Lol. Under the hood, CE's AI is actually absurdly simple compared with a lot of AI that many people find far less believable and interesting. Halo 1 was where Bungie aimed for "intelligence" rather than intelligence, and absolutely nailed it.[/quote]I'm sure we all know that. For instance, at first a Spec Ops Elite seems intimidating. But then you realize they're chucking grenades at you because you're shooting at them. You learn to exploit that and bang, that Elite just got stuck while you got past him. Same thing with Zealots. They're fearsome and badass but they are very easy to take advantage of since they almost always berserk when they close the distance. Nonetheless, Halo 2/Reach AI just have generic responses. Nothing really fun about them. :/ Halo 3 would have to be the closest to CE AI since it added a lot more (kamikaze Grunts, distinct Brute berserking, Hunters sweeping with their shield) and was going to add even more (Brutes doing brutal stuff to marines). You'll notice how enemies have varying dodging animations (they don't just do a roll, they can also jump for cover, spin, and side step), surprise animations, etc. Reach reuses a lot of animations (Elite surprise = Elite berserking, Hunter raising shield = Halo 3 Tank Form) and the only new thing I've seen is the Grunt's alert animation (skips 3 times). [Edited on 10.11.2012 12:18 AM PDT]
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] InvasionImminent You must not own many games OP.[/quote] Enlighten me.
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For any faults in Halo 2, Halo 3, and Halo Reach I blame Microsoft. Lol, no but seriously Halo 2 and Halo 3 got so much cut due to time and Reach just felt like it had no vision. Reach is probably the easiest campaign, but there are a few things that annoy me. It feels (I could be wrong) that the shields of Elites are stronger in Reach than other games and unrealistically so. Also, I hate bottomless clip. I know in Halo 3 the enemies reload their weapons. What about CE and Halo 2? I'm gonna have to go bacck and check. [Edited on 10.11.2012 11:40 PM PDT]
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sdno...your post is confusing...Invasionment, hit a brother up. I have been through (almost the entirety of the series of) Ghost Recon, all of Gears, all Dead Space, Riddick, Metro, (most of) Rainbow, Darkness, Half Life 2, Crysis 2, Assassin's 1&2, Jedi Knight, Fallout 3, Bioshocks, (dabbled in COD and GTA...) countless original Xbox games... and I've yet to see anything that matches CE's enemy psychological states. Was only talking about the early 2000's era, but, have yet to see enemy AI that outdoes it since. Tell me what games I'm missing...
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] nesteggfailure Invasionment, hit a brother up.[/quote] Okay, one of the best examp- [quote] Was only talking about the early 2000's era[/quote] ... [quote]Tell me what games I'm missing...[/quote] I can only give you games that are from 2003 and up. If you want to say that CE was rare for its time, then yeah, I totally agree.
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I must know what other games have it!! Do tell us Invasion, of the games that are from 2003 and up. I still have enough Microsoft points to buy a game...
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Woud really like to hear as well. Hey Sliding, do you have a mint ? Am getting self-conscious as we wait...
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] sdnomdE Lol. Under the hood, CE's AI is actually absurdly simple compared with a lot of AI that many people find far less believable and interesting. Halo 1 was where Bungie aimed for "intelligence" rather than intelligence, and absolutely nailed it.[/quote] Intelligence rather than intelligence? Do you mean Intelligents rather than intelligence, or vice versa?
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Unanimate Objec [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] sdnomdE Lol. Under the hood, CE's AI is actually absurdly simple compared with a lot of AI that many people find far less believable and interesting. Halo 1 was where Bungie aimed for "intelligence" rather than intelligence, and absolutely nailed it.[/quote] Intelligence rather than intelligence? Do you mean Intelligents rather than intelligence, or vice versa?[/quote] No. You need to pay attention to the scare quotes. Halo 1's AI is not a very complicated system. They are not actually very intelligent in most senses of the word, but they seem to be very natural and convincing enemies in-game. Rather than trying to approximate real intelligence, Bungie aimed for expressiveness, smooth gameplay, and a decent illusion of intelligence. The newer games often feature substantially more sophisticated AI systems, but are often not perceived as having smarter, more natural, more convincing enemies. [Edited on 10.17.2012 2:53 PM PDT]
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Haha, very funny you guys. Sorry I don't have all the time in the world to post on Bnet, but I eventually get to what I post sooner or later. I'm actually busy right now, and when I got to this I wanted to post links to pictures and stuff, so I'll just leave this here for now so I can get some slack for two minutes. [url=http://darksouls.wikidot.com/enemies]See you in a few days.[/url] BTW, look up some footage of a game called Metal Arms, the enemies in that game actually taunt you and try to scare you out. Really cool game. Also I'll be in Japan for the next week, so don't count on any replies for a while. [Edited on 10.17.2012 9:20 PM PDT]
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] nesteggfailure Woud really like to hear as well. Hey Sliding, do you have a mint ? Am getting self-conscious as we wait... [/quote]What kind of mint? [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] sdnomdE Halo 1's AI is not a very complicated system. They are not actually very intelligent in most senses of the word, but they seem to be very natural and convincing enemies in-game. Rather than trying to approximate real intelligence, Bungie aimed for expressiveness, smooth gameplay, and a decent illusion of intelligence. The newer games often feature substantially more sophisticated AI systems, but are often not perceived as having smarter, more natural, more convincing enemies.[/quote]You always manage to state what must be stated without making it too extensive. My posts span hundreds of pages and my tldr's span thousands and there's really no point to be discovered in them other than a bunch of claims. :/ [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] InvasionImminent Haha, very funny you guys. Sorry I don't have all the time in the world to post on Bnet, but I eventually get to what I post sooner or later. I'm actually busy right now, and when I got to this I wanted to post links to pictures and stuff, so I'll just leave this here for now so I can get some slack for two minutes. [url=http://darksouls.wikidot.com/enemies]See you in a few days.[/url] BTW, look up some footage of a game called Metal Arms, the enemies in that game actually taunt you and try to scare you out. Really cool game. Also I'll be in Japan for the next week, so don't count on any replies for a while.[/quote]Funny, just today, I was discussing Dark Souls on Waypoint. Someone directed me to [url=http://www.youtube.com/user/EpicNameBro]this channel[/url]. Was this a good recommendation? I'm watching it right now. [Edited on 10.18.2012 1:31 AM PDT]
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I was actually going to post some stuff from ENB. My Organic Difficulty thread was inspired off of his videos. He has good content, but mostly for new players. Nothing too interesting besides lore and playthroughs. None of his work really stands out for the point I was going to make in this thread though.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] InvasionImminent I was actually going to post some stuff from ENB. My Organic Difficulty thread was inspired off of his videos. He has good content, but mostly for new players. Nothing too interesting besides lore and playthroughs. None of his work really stands out for the point I was going to make in this thread though.[/quote]Well, [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_vkxyJRtUg]this enemy[/url] is a total badass. Also, I'm loving [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P594j-E4jCQ]these skull enemies[/url]. Why can't Halo Hunters jump back like that? Is it just me or does Dark Souls seem like a 100x better version of Legend of Zelda games? I got the game using torrents but I haven't installed it yet. Edit: Damn, this port really is crap. 5 minutes in the menu and I have trouble adjusting to the controls since the controls are shown as Xbox buttons! [Edited on 10.19.2012 3:35 PM PDT]
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"They are not actually very intelligent in most senses of the word, but they seem to be very natural and convincing enemies in-game. Rather than trying to approximate real intelligence, Bungie aimed for expressiveness, smooth gameplay, and a decent illusion of intelligence. The newer games often feature substantially more sophisticated AI systems, but are often not perceived as having smarter, more natural, more convincing enemies." Exactly. Thank you. Nobody's matched what Bungie did (with such basic material) so far. IMO. Am glad I'm not alone here. That's all I was looking for...
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Lulz roflcopterz, My interwebz is back up. I left this thread without supplying a whole lot of info (like I promised to do) so I bumped it up. I've been busy unpacking boxes all day and because I have been relocating, but I still stand by my promise to answer all replies to said stupid posts I make. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Sliding Ghost Well, [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_vkxyJRtUg]this enemy[/url] is a total badass. [/quote] Wish I had to DLC to have a go at him myself, but sadly I don't. I DO know he has some Badass armor. [quote]Also, I'm loving [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P594j-E4jCQ]these skull enemies[/url]. Why can't Halo Hunters jump back like that?[/quote] Those guys are asshats, not sure what you're talking about lol. [quote]Is it just me or does Dark Souls seem like a 100x better version of Legend of Zelda games? I got the game using torrents but I haven't installed it yet.[/quote] I watched a friend play Majora's mask all last weekend. I kept on making DkS comparisons the entire time I was observing. I think there is just more to DkS than Legend of Zelda games. But it depends on what style you're going for to be honest. [quote]Edit: Damn, this port really is crap. 5 minutes in the menu and I have trouble adjusting to the controls since the controls are shown as Xbox buttons![/quote][quote][b]Posted by:[/b] InvasionImminent [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Sliding Ghost Well, [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_vkxyJRtUg]this enemy[/url] is a total badass. [/quote] Wish I had to DLC to have a go at him myself, but sadly I don't. I DO know he has some Badass armor.[/quote]I see. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] InvasionImminent [quote]Also, I'm loving [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P594j-E4jCQ]these skull enemies[/url]. Why can't Halo Hunters jump back like that?[/quote] Those guys are asshats, not sure what you're talking about lol.[/quote]What DkS enemies do (no matter how stupid) is 200 light years ahead of Halo AI. Halo Hunters are extremely limited in cqc. They can't dodge -blam!-. They're just huge giant roadblocks. The only time they use block is when shot at the neck (which is pointless since their weak spot is their back). [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] InvasionImminent [quote]Is it just me or does Dark Souls seem like a 100x better version of Legend of Zelda games? I got the game using torrents but I haven't installed it yet.[/quote] I watched a friend play Majora's mask all last weekend. I kept on making DkS comparisons the entire time I was observing. I think there is just more to DkS than Legend of Zelda games. But it depends on what style you're going for to be honest.[/quote]I think I'd prefer DkS. Having to revert to day 1 again and again was excruciatingly repetitive. Also, I could never do that alien invasion defense objective. Had me weeping because I could never get to the third or fourth temple of the game. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] InvasionImminent If you've done any research then you'd know that PtD edition is terrible and can only be used with an Xbox controller.[/quote]I knew it was terrible but I didn't see anyone mention using a Xbox controller. Can it be a Xbox 360 controller? [Edited on 11.27.2012 12:55 AM PST]Most people use an xbox controller.Majora ? Dark Souls...Sliding, are you seeing other games behind my back ? I can handle whatever you have to tell me, but I need you to be real...[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] nesteggfailure Majora ? Dark Souls...Sliding, are you seeing other games behind my back ? I can handle whatever you have to tell me, but I need you to be real... [/quote]I played Majora way back before I found out about Halo. As for Dark Souls, I never played it. But I'll tell you a secret, way before I got into Halo, I was playing Super Smash Bros. Melee and Brawl.[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Sliding Ghost [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] nesteggfailure Majora ? Dark Souls...Sliding, are you seeing other games behind my back ? I can handle whatever you have to tell me, but I need you to be real... [/quote]I played Majora way back before I found out about Halo. As for Dark Souls, I never played it. But I'll tell you a secret, way before I got into Halo, I was playing Super Smash Bros. Melee and Brawl.[/quote] Geez, you must be around my stepson's age. I literally first gamed in 1977. Yikes. The thing I couldn't stand about Smash Bros. was how you could wear an opponent down, doing everything right, and then suddenly, he unleashes one attack and you're jacked. Whah... But I still recall the authoritarian announcement of "Captain Falcon !" As if everything he did was worthy of an announcement. Still better than Fusion Frenzy.[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] nesteggfailure [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Sliding Ghost [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] nesteggfailure Majora ? Dark Souls...Sliding, are you seeing other games behind my back ? I can handle whatever you have to tell me, but I need you to be real... [/quote]I played Majora way back before I found out about Halo. As for Dark Souls, I never played it. But I'll tell you a secret, way before I got into Halo, I was playing Super Smash Bros. Melee and Brawl.[/quote] Geez, you must be around my stepson's age. I literally first gamed in 1977. Yikes. The thing I couldn't stand about Smash Bros. was how you could wear an opponent down, doing everything right, and then suddenly, he unleashes one attack and you're jacked. Whah... But I still recall the authoritarian announcement of "Captain Falcon !" As if everything he did was worthy of an announcement. Still better than Fusion Frenzy. [/quote]I'm in my 20s. It's the glitches that got me interested (also, it's what my friends used to play). [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YSeHeuiX8U]Super Wave Dash with Samus[/url]. It's basically the counterpart of Halo 2 sword flying except you can string it with other attacks for pure domination. There's also [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdmwKfPchms]Infinite Dimensional Cape[/url]. Not nearly as versatile but it's still useful. :P Captain Falcon was more or less the counterpart of Halo's Johnson. Overhyped and he lived up to it. xD [Edited on 11.29.2012 10:10 PM PST]I play a mean Meta Knight. Just saying.
