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Edited by ZigTheZagy: 2/8/2016 8:12:24 PM
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A Serious Discussion About Sniper Rifle Changes

With all the talk about special ammo changes happening in Destiny PvP I thought it would also be good to also have a serious discussion about potential changes to snipers(and no it's not aim assist). [b]Notice: This is a long post I have highlighted the key points in bold for a TL;DR[/b] First let me come out and say that yes I am a shotgun user in PvP and that granted I don't have much skill if any at all when it comes to sniper use and that I simply prefer shotguns over sidearms and fusion rifles. That said I do know most people who do snipe will be automatically skeptical of this post. Though I can tell you that I am here to make a rational argument and proposition not another "OMG snipers are OP!" type of post. How I want to communicate my personal thoughts on what needs to happen to sniper rifles is by first discussing the advantages and disadvantages that each special weapon has in the Crucible and the risk of which each one presents to the user: Shotguns Advantage- Excellent one shot kill potential for user in close quarters combat Disadvantage- Requires the user to be extremely close to target creating significant risk for the user as they regularly place themselves within melee or shotgun range of their own target. Fusion Rifles Advantage- Excellent one shot kill potential at medium to close ranges Disadvantage- The required charging of the fusion rifle creates a short duration of which poses a risk to the user as they are exposed to potentially lethal damage from their target or other oppenents while charging. If the users fusion rifle shot misses or does not hit enough for lethal damage they are at an even greater risk of being killed as they must either charge for an additional shot or switch weapons leaving them exposed to their target for a further increased duration. Sidearms Advantage- Excellent quick time to kill at close to medium range; gives user quick defensive or offensive option in various unexpected scenarios Disadvantage- Requires user to be consistent with maintaining shots on their target. Doing so can be difficult for users as a sidearms rapid fire capability create significant recoil which can cause shots to miss. By missing multiple shots it puts the user at risk for lethal damage from their target before the user can eliminate their target. Snipers Advantage- Excellent one shot kill potential from medium to long ranges. Disadvantage- Requires a more skillful user to wield effectively. User places themselves at risk when aiming down sight as they can be counter sniped, flanked, rushed, and killed by a target or oppenent that the user was not aware of or not prepared for. The user also has no hip fire indicator for when they are unexpectedly rushed by a target. Now that I have laid out the advantages and disadvantages it may seem confusing as to why I am wanting a change to happen to sniper rifles since they clearly do have a disadvnatage. The issue is the fact that snipers are currently the special weapon that create the least amount of risk for their users and no it has nothing to do with aim assist or the disadvantages that I have stated. [b]The problem is that snipers as a whole reward too much damage for landing a body shot. The reasoning for this is that a single body shot from a high impact sniper rifle in Crucible does approximately 165 damage (pending on armor) leaving the target with about 17% of their health left. By dealing this much damage it barely takes anything to get lethal damage on a target. And while the target who did take damage can run to cover to heal up by doing so they are temporarily removed from the fight. This allows the sniper to reposition, go in for the kill, or give his/her teammeates the opportunity to go in for the kill as their target is incredibly vulnerable.[/b] Another situation is that while snipers do have the disadvantage of being caught off guard by being rushed the risk of the sniper dying is mitigated if they land a body shot on the rusher. By doing so it provides the sniper enough of a damage threshold that they can either finish the target with a second sniper body shot or switch to their primary weapon. Pending on the impact of the primary weapon it will finish the rusher off with a few shots or even one body shot often before the rusher is within harmful range. There are arguements that can be made about sniper rifles being able to deal such high body shot damage. One is that as a sniper it can be difficult to land a body shot at close range when being rushed. While that is very much so true a well practiced sniper I have found can often reliably body shot a target. Even so a mediocre sniper still has a reasonable chance of landing a body shot giving them the advantage over person who has caught them off guard. Ultimately by landing a bodyshot with a sniper rifle it gives the sniper far too great of a damage reward that critically injures the target from a safe distance. For all other special weapons to critically injure a target they have to place the user at a far greater risk. For example shotgun users that critically injure targets must get close which carries risk since they are at close range, Fusion rifle users which critically injure a target are at risk as they are left exposed for a longer period of time as they must charge their shots, and sidearms to critically injure have to land their shots quickly and consistently and by failing to do so put themselves at risk. Snipers on the other hand to critically injure do not have to be close to critically injure, they do not have to charge their shots, and they do not need to land multiple shots. To critically injure they just have to land one singular, near instantaneous shot to the body. [b]All of this said I still believe snipers should be be rewarded with a kill if they can manage to land two bodyshots on their target as it means they succeeded in being not only accurate but consistent with their shots. That is why I believe that the body shot multiplier for snipers in general needs to be lowered such that a single high to medium impact sniper body shot leaves a target with 35% to 40% health remaining and low impact sniper body shots leaves a target with 45% to 49% health remaining. In exchange the headshot multiplier is increased for all sniper rifles to encourage skillful play with them.[/b] By implementing this change it will give a sniper's target a fair chance if the sniper only body shots them but still reward the sniper for consistency if they manage to land the seocond lethal shot. [b]So what do you think? Is this a reasonable proposition, is there a better solution, or should things be left the way they are? Please be civil if you have disagreements with my proposition as I would like to have a reasonable discussion on what should or should not happen to sniper rifles in PvP. Thank you and don't forget to leave a like so we can get this discussion trending.[/b]

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  • We at Bungie have heard your concerns and read your feedback. So we nerfed fusion rifle range by 35%

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    • Buff fusion rifles!

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    • All I want is that two body shot sniping shouldn't be a thing. Sniper should award kills for precision

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    • Sorry cant agree with all the sniper criticism. I am an average pvp player with ok sniping skills. I sometimes snipe or shotgun depending on the circumstances. To snipe well definitely requires more skill than any other weapon type and this skill should therefore be rewarded accordingly. Very rarely do you encounter a sniper who is so good that you feel that there is no way to get close. Players have many ways to avoid snipers and get closer to them: general movement and map knowledge, grenades, blink, and invisibility. The most basic piece of advice is just dont be so dumb as to run in to an area where you know that a sniper is scoped in. Be patient. Turn around and find a different approach. I would bet money that a huge amount of sniper kills come from people failing to do just that.

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      • You missed one more negative to having a sniper equipped, no close game [b]or[/b] no mid game.

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        • Yeah body shots should take a bit less, but I think the low impact snipers need some sort of buff. Quicker weapon swaps or something. When's the last time someone sniped you with a Tao Hao Yuan or Uzume haha. All archetypes should be a viable option.

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        • Body shots should do 95 damage, meaning two landed body shots leaves the target alive. Head shots should be 1 shot kill still. It doesn't make sense that a crap body shot leaves someone nearly dead, all they do then is switch to MIDA and get the kill. It's too easy. Especially with the disadvantages of the other secondary types. A shotgun should most definitely kill someone if they are in close range, fusion rifles are pretty much junk, and sidearms are great.. If the other team doesn't have snipers or shotguns.. Or MIDA, or last word, or any weapon.. Sidearms are pretty bad. Now that you don't start with secondary ammo, it's really helped balance the game. There's not kids hiding behind pillars watching sniper lanes anymore at the beginning of the game. You can rush them and gun them down, which really helped auto rifles make a comeback. Now people have to be aware they may not get a long range option for a bit so their load outs are changing. Personally, Destiny PVP has never been my go to for multiplayer gaming. It's severely broken with all of the one shot kill weapons that can be used as a crutch in some capacities, yes people are good with them, but they're one dimensional players. I have had so much more success in crucible now that the secondary ammo is more scarce. I still believe that sniper shots should only reward skillful hands, two body shots for a kill is still a joke. The game doesn't have lead mechanics, bullet drop, or anything else that should warrant two body shots obtaining a kill. Any idiot can pick up a sniper in this game, hold a lane, and pop two shots into the unlucky guy who crosses their path. It should have to take three shots, kill off their ammo. It would force them to learn to become accurate. Two body shots and one shot from anything else is an option. Learn to switch weapons.

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        • The fix is less special ammo. The "nerf" has done nothing

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        • Increase flinch and add a little time with weapon switching (so you can't just body shot, switch to mida instantly and finish someone off). This still allows skilled snipers to do well, but not everyone else. Less body damage is fine too, but not really even needed with the other changes.

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          • Edited by diaboliC NOR: 2/9/2016 1:09:56 PM
            No need to make such a long post, everybody knows what wrong with the sniper rifles. Why do Destiny have 500% more skilled snipers then any other game? How many team sniper games have you played in Destiny, despite the fact that the playlist doesn't exist? Is there a map in Destiny where a sniper rifle is not THE best option? The smaller maps just give you a fighting chance using shotgun, fusion and side-arm. Snipers can be used effectively in any situation and range. I will say the other options are decent in 6v6, and shotgun rushing can be very effective but the risk is much higher. Fact is Sniper is vital in PVE, and dominant in PVP. Solution: The easy solution has been posted on these forums since November 2014, increase the flinching. When you snipe you should have to be the one making the first move, you should know were the enemy is and get them first. When someone is shooting at you, you should be forced to re position or die. All those slow snipers netting headshots on you because of no flinching, would now die because they actually suck balls.

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            • I'd like it if when I'm shooting at a sniper first, he doesn't quickscope and headshot me

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            • Edited by Elite: 2/10/2016 2:50:19 AM
              I say nerf them. Add a sway or something . Game is getting ridiculous it's so easy now to sit back in a corner with mida and a sniper. I've gotten some crazy shots that shouldn't be happening

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            • Slow down aim speed! A high powered sniper shouldn't be accurate when ADS and walking and shouldn't be able to quickly turn and snipe the enemy running up on them. I played Borderlands 2 while destiny is dry and grabbed a sniper and it felt totally different. It felt slow and powerful, not like a scout rifle with better zoom. It makes them Too effective at close range, and 18th almost no flinch they land headshots even while you are laying into them with primary fire.

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            • Increase zoom and add sway. That simple As it stands now, snipers are effective at all ranges when every other special has its own sweet spot where it'll be ineffective anywhere else

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            • I just wish I could play a game of 3s without the opposite team all using 1000 yard stare, it's really frustrating and forces me into a play style that while good, doesn't work on certain maps. Dungeons for example, is a super snipe map because of all the doorways. Meh. I stress, I carry on playing.

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            • I just wish I could play a game of 3s without the opposite team all using 1000 yard stare, it's really frustrating and forces me into a play style that while good, doesn't work on certain maps. Dungeons for example, is a super snipe map because of all the doorways. Meh. I stress, I carry on playing.

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            • I kinda think that they could just increase the zoom and increase the time to ADS and it'd substantially reduce the viability of using snipers at close and medium range -- which, to me, seems like the biggest problem with snipers.

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            • All they have to do is make it so you have to actually aim and then sniper rifles will be balanced. Honestly I have never really had a problem with snipers and I used to use snipers in PvP pretty often year one do to the easy kills they netted me.

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            • ░▄▀▄▀▀▀▀▄▀▄░░░░░░░░░ ░█░░░░░░░░▀▄░░░░░░▄░ █░░▀░░▀░░░░░▀▄▄░░█░█ █░▄░█▀░▄░░░░░░░▀▀░░█ █░░▀▀▀▀░░░░░░░░░░░░█ █░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░█ █░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░█ ░█░░▄▄░░▄▄▄▄░░▄▄░░█░ ░█░▄▀█░▄▀░░█░▄▀█░▄▀░ ░░▀░░░▀░░░░░▀░░░▀░░░

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            • One sniper archetype does too much body damage(high impact). However with my weylorans(low impact) against full armored titan or ram warlock it takes 3 body shots.

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              • https://youtu.be/NRJ4CdU8sMk For all you shotgun crybabies

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              • Leave snipers base stats alone....nerf aim assist on 1000 yard Buff range on fusions Nerf charge time on fusions Nerf shotgun range 5 percent

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              • Rather or not people like it there are "to many" people complaining about snipers right now for Bungie to just ignore it. I don't believe in "Nerfing" weapons but I think one's inbound here. PS: But they're just going to find another weapon to replace it. Then you'll have this type of thing all over again people will be crying for a Nerf and it's a never ending vicious cycle. Piece.

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                • This is reasonable. Actually, this was the same thought I had about how they could have handled shotguns better. Instead of continuously nerfing the range, taking away Shotpackage, nerfing Blink, and then messing with the movement speed when it's equipped, they could have left all of that alone, lowered the body damage, and increased the precision scalar. I mean, nearly every time you get one-shot by a shotgun, it's a body shot. And no matter how many times they nerf range, people still complain about it being a one-shot from "ridiculous ranges"; that the nerf didn't really change anything. Well of course not. It's because the main issue was never the range to begin with.

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                • Can someone please tell me when blink shotgun got so hard for you people to do? Lot easier to rack up kills with a shotty...

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                • Holy -blam!-ing wall of words

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