Thorn nerf threads are probably the most common thread type on the forums right now, with good reason. Since House of wolves dropped, thorn use has skyrocketed, partly due to the addition of Trials of Osiris. Now, just because a weapon is over used doesn’t always mean it’s overpowered. Thorn is a great weapon. The issue with it is not that it is brutally overpowered, it’s just slightly overpowered. Many of us that are asking for a nerf are hesitant to do so because of what happened to the auto rifles and, just like those that say leave it alone, are terrified that they are going to nerf the entire hand cannon class, or just thorn and the other exotics into the ground, which would be no fun at all. That being said, something needs to be done about it. What makes thorn so good is a combination of things. It is the only weapon that has a damage over time effect. It has amazing range and accuracy due to send it. It has class leading RoF, with only the last word being faster, it has a good magazine size, great impact, good stability, etc. In the current state of the crucible and bungie’s map design, there is really only one map where thorn and hand cannons in general cannot compete, with that map being skyshock. This really isn’t an issue of weapon balance and more one of map design that really wont go away any time soon. Hand cannons should be good on almost all of these maps. This isn’t something people are arguing. What people are arguing is that one hand cannon in particular is too good on these maps, and its range and accuracy don’t really allow players to use longer range weapons to counter it. The damage over time being unique to one weapon means people are going to always know when they are getting shot by it, hence part of why people are so annoyed with thorn. You always know when somebody is using it. But, the DoT rewards body shots as much as it rewards precision shots. Yes, thorn is a two shot kill only with headshots, but the DoT makes thorn incredibly forgiving to those that miss headshots. It burns for enough damage that it allows for clean up kills, where other weapons would allow that player to escape. I’m talking about getting tagged in the leg when trying to take cover and burning to death. It has happened to us all and it’s annoying. Thorn does 56 damage per body shot. The mark of the devourer does 7 ticks of damage 5 times. Thorn and the other hand cannons of that impact class do 86 precision damage. Essentially, even with a body shot thorn is capable of 91 damage after the full burn and the burn keeps going after the other player died. There have been a lot of suggestions from the community on how to tweak the burn to be more balanced. Some have suggested lowering the amount of ticks while others have suggested lowering the damage per tick down to 5. Personally I feel that if the burning was tied to precision damage, it would raise the skill gap, still reward head shots, and leave the gun realtivly untouched for those that use it in PVE(but why are you using it in PVE? Fatebringer is love; Fatebring is life). Most of the issue with thorn is that is being used as a crutch for players because the burn is so forgiving. The other glaring issue with thorn is that it rivals scout rifles at range. Send it makes it able to counter snipe rather well. Now before it was buffed, for those that weren’t around back then, it only had 6 rounds in its magazine. I think it should go back to this as the base with a few additional tweaks. Snapshot is never used on the weapon. Its only send it and occasionally perfect balance. I suggest that they lower the base magazine size back down to 6, remove the snapshot perk, and replace it with field scout/extended mag. This would force a choice between range and accuracy or having those additional 3 rounds in the magazine. Many of the better, more accurate players would still choose send it and would still do very well, while some of the less accurate players would opt for field scout. Skill gap increased. Many who are against the nerf keep saying that another weapon will replace it. The issue with that is there is nothing else that can replace it. The last word is great up close but it DOES have range limitations and is not nearly as accurate as thorn is, it does need its perk fixed. Mythoclast is meh now and is really only good at close range. Autos are awful. Pulse rifles are probably the most balanced class, but they reward a skilled hand. As good as red death is, it’s quite a bit harder to use than the hand cannons. Scouts are actually well balanced, but they are punished by the map size (seriously though the scholar is -blam!-ing dirty). Mida is decent, but thorn actually staggers players harder than mida does, lowering Mida’s ability to counter thorn A thorn nerf might result in an increase in the amount of Last Word or Red death users, but both of those aren’t very forgiving weapons. Double kills are a challenge with the last word since it’s a bullet hose and red death needs all 6 shots from those two bursts to land on the head to be good. I would love to see more legendary hand cannons, the auto’s back to at least being competitive, and more pulse rifle duels happening. Right now the crucible is lacking variety. It’s boring. We don’t want a one trick pony meta, we want balance and each weapon type to be viable. One weapon ruling them all was how halo was for many years with its BR. As much as I love that series, I don’t want my hand to be somewhat forced as to what gun to bring into the crucible. We aren’t asking to nerf the hand cannons or thorn into the ground. We just want it to be brought back in line reasonably with everything else. Edit: this is trending. Edit 2: 150 replies. Thanks guys. Edit 3: broke 200 Edit 4: I'm not going to put a TL;DR Edit 5: friend of mine suggested to cut the reload back down again slightly and replace perfect balance with flared mag well. There would then be the choice between 9 rounds, range and accuracy, or faster reload.