YES the guns are overpowered in general and compared to other guns. YES if you are a skilled player and you go up against a EQUALLY skilled player using Thorn, Hawkmoon or TLW with something else you are probably screwed and that sucks. BUT IF YOU GET KILLED BY A UNSKILLED PLAYER USING A THORN, TLW, OR HAWKMOON. YOU ARE DOING SOMETHING WRONG AND SHOULD RECONSIDER WHETHER OR NOT YOU HAVE SKILL. these guns are statistically better than most/all others in PvP (at the moment) but to use them at there most OP state YOU NEED SKILL. IF YOU ARE RAGING ABOUT GETTING DOUBLE TAPPED BY A, hell lets just call them the triad so I don't have to keep typing their names out, THAN THE [b]LAST[/b] THING YOU SHOULD BE COMPLAINING ABOUT IS THAT THEY TAKE NO SKILL TO USE AND YOU ONLY GOT KILLED BY SOME TERRIBLE PLAYER WHO ENDED YOUR PREVAILED UNBROKEN STREAK BY USING A TRIAD (ooh that sounds good, #triad anyone?) Ever tried double tapping a head shot with a triad QUICKLY? ITS NOT EASY. IT TAKES SKILL. More skill then I have generally speaking, I'm no PvP God.