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Edited by sTier:
3/3/2015 7:38:28 PM
26
Can Current AR's REALLY Compete With Other Top Tier Weapons?
This isn't a whining post but rather a feedback post on how the autorifle nerf wasn't too effective.
As long as there are autorifles they will remain the most used class, being that in a game automatic is simply fun, bit it's at the point where every single gun can deal more damage per magazine even if they aren't upgraded than a fully upgraded auto rifle, it's quite humorous (video coming soon.)
To treat this the right way you have tt like the classic Ninja VS Soldier argument, the Ninja could still kill the soldier but that is because the Ninja is far more skilled in combat than the soldier, so he could have no problem getting close with something like a sword (autorifles).
But what if we replaced this soldier with a ninja, but with a gun and blade just like the soldier had? Now the original ninja is completely outclassed, and this is logic I feel like should be considered, because the game will continue to have good autorifle use, it's just the performance of those users will pale in comparison to that of the Hawkmoon users and Thorn users.
The maps are also something to consider, most maps are filled with obstructions, making cover an essential part in gameplay.
With the maps being full with cover, auto rifles simply can't deliver the steady stream of bullets they are supposed to, while a hawkmoon user will be able to quickly 3 shot you at all ranges, even if you are partially covered, even if you fired first.
The ultimate solution to this without breaking autorifles would be simple, increased the base precision damage(Using low impact ARs moreso), this would reward players with quality aim, and because of the already existing range reductions. with this buff auto rifles would be even more focused on mid-close range rather than hoping on random headshots at range like they do now, since they suffer vs most other classes.
In time, I'll post videos to this threading showing Damage per Magazine and recoil to further illustrate the point.
I have noticed a certain Bungie employee stated that the opinion on ar's is 50/50, so I would love to see how everyone thinks of them now in the poll.
Do you all really think in PvP, a Necrochasm could compete with a Hawkmoon?
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1 ReplyEdited by PS_TRUDODYR: 3/8/2015 3:35:00 AMThey couldn't beat the top weapons before the 1.1.1 update with the exception of Suros. Now, ARs are firmly low down on the table. Base damage is simply too low.
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It was too low before the patch. I haven't used auto rifles in months. They're just too weak, especially since the latest nerf.
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7 RepliesThere is no AR right now that can compete with Thorn or TLW. The top level assault rifle (Suros Regime) or its cheap cousin (Vanquisher VIII) got hit so hard that the Stranger's Rifle can put down a player faster. In fact, I just got another mark of the unbroken medal yesterday while using the SR. The Vex (I don't have it) seems to be in shams also because I can't remember the last time I got killed by it. Right now its HCs, some scouts like fang of y..whatever its called, some pulses specially SR/red death and then autorifles. ps - the necro can't compete with anything.
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Nothing can compete with Hand Cannons.....
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3 RepliesI run hardlight while i play pvp all i gotta say
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2 RepliesIt makes me lol when ever I hear "AR's" where never meant to be a sniper rifle. It's the freaking future so why can't an AR have amazing range? After all they have embedded AI's, lazer targeting systems etc. It's time that every one got past the idea that an AR should be like an m4 or a AK47
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1 Replymy vanqusher lacks the punch it had prepatch
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LoL - AR's can not even stand against mid-tier PR's anymore. My Stranger's Rifle wrecks Regime runners - I can fire off my two bursts before they can get close to the last bullet they need to put me down. It is hilarious watching them fall to a [b]Rare Pulse Rifle[/b] that [b][u]EVERYONE GETS FROM BEATING THE CAMPAIGN[/u][/b]. xD
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It really seems to me like they lied about the percentage of change. High impact slow firing auto rifles were hit with almost a 15% damage loss, not 2.5%. It wouldn't surprise me if the supposed 9.7% pulse rifle buff is wrong too. I'm ripping peoples heads off in two bursts with 3LW. I've been killed very fast by people using Red Death too. I don't have it, but it sure feels like it has a faster TTK than Thorn or Vex. I don't mind the pulse rifle thing, they are a bit harder to use but I hate the auto rifle nerf. It just makes too many fun guns feel obsolete.
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6 RepliesThe problem is that Bungie capped the AR's peak potential, not it's achievable potential. AR's are and were very easy guns to use to their full or nearly full potential. With high rate of fire, full auto, and high stability, low recoil and great accuracy, the guns were very easy to get lots of rapid head shots. Good players could get all head shots. Any other primary is a bit more difficulty, hand cannons and sr's in particular. Both require more discipline, timing and aim to use. Getting all head shots with a hc or sr is much more difficult. Simply put, they are harder guns to use, but usually do more damage when used well. There are two basic way to nerf a gun, 1st you make it harder to use, aka reduce accuracy, increase stability, or make the aim assist or zoom weaker. This makes the gun harder to get rapid kills with to the average player. The second is to just cut the damage output by reducing rate of fire, impact, critical multipliers, or the like. When you take a gun that is easy to use, meaning that most players can use it to its peak potential, and cut the damage, this is a "hard" nerf. There is no way to compensate for the nerf by being skilled. This is the opposite of what happened to hand cannons, which got a minor "soft" nerf, they got reduced range and accuracy. A player can compensate for that nerf with skill. No amount of skill will compensate for the raw damage reduction given to AR's. And it IS more than "2.5%". Pre nerf suros did 36 crit damage in the crucible, no it does 31. 31/36 = .861, resulting in a staggering 13.8% cut in damage... pre nerf body shots were 29, now 25, 25/29=.862, again almost 14%. TTK has increased from .909/1.09 to 1.09/1.27. This is an increase of 16%-19% for TTK. Again WAY more that the advertised 2.5%! No change occurred to the high rof / low impact guns like atheon's, with the most change to the high impact guns, suros, vanquisher, ect. What they should have done is left the damage the same and decreased stability and auto aim, an increased recoil. That way the gun has the same Potential, just becomes harder to achieve peak output.
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I wish they hadn't nerfed ARs but I'd swear that I still see people using them a lot in PVP. I have stopped using my Suros in PVP as there was a noticeable drop in its TTK. No way the Suros suffered only a 2.5% drop off. Now I rock the Thorn on maps where I used to use Suros.
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I haven't been using anything besides the bad juju since the update. Although I have fun with it getting my super really quick and not having to reload when facing a weak mob. I do miss auto rifles but they became shit after the pacth and my favorite gun hard light which was border line already is just horrible now I don't even try to use it in roc strikes now how bad it is
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Eh, I'm not much of an auto rifle user but I ran with hard light just for funsies yesterday and did good with it. I'm not sure why they nerfed em in the first place, I never had a hard time killing someone that was using one..
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Edited by Mournblood: 3/5/2015 6:35:29 AMOpinion on the AR nerfs are divided 50/50? My ass. I wouldn't accept anything Bungie has to say on the matter as fact nor even informed opinion at this point. You're talking about the same people who based a nerf on what was essentially usage metrics, which were inconclusive as they didn't take into account play style preferences any more than they considered kill ratios for comparative counter weapons. That said, ARs are definitely no longer competitive in PvP. Sure, in Crucible you can still sport your SUROS and you'll still get some kills with it against poorly skilled or poorly geared players, but because of the combination of damage and range reductions on ARs, you're forced into close combat where shotguns and hand cannons rule. Essentially, if you don't want to get pulled into the shotgun/hand cannon fest going on right now, you're only viable choices are a sniper rifle (which isn't feasible on many maps) or one of the higher impact PRs now that they've been buffed to a competitive level. This of course doesn't include the performance issues with ARs in PvE now. IMO, the complaints about ARs were mostly centered on the SUROS, and were also mostly unfounded. The most Bungie should have done is increase fall off damage at range on that one specific weapon. The rest of the AR family should have been left completely untouched. If they had only buffed PRs (which was the original purpose of the balance update), they would have done a far better job of making PvP more balanced than this mess they've created.
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7 RepliesI don't even use ARs, yet I can pull one out whenever and snag a few quick kills. They're fine, they're just not the powerhouses that they used to be. Now you're not slaughtering everyone you encounter and you're upset about the gun being balanced.
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2 RepliesI don't use ARs now so I can't comment on how they are performing after patch. However, not everyone can just pick up a Scout Rifle or HC and be better than they would be with a spray and pray AR. Just to be clear, I'm not sure the AR is meant to be equal or best at anything. That being said, if no one is using it, then maybe it went too far. I mean, Bungie used that reasoning to buff PR and nerf AR. If it turns out no one is really using ARs, they'll fix it. Be patient.
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Edited by Mayhem420: 3/5/2015 12:40:20 AMIn my opinion none of the guns needed to be nerfed. Buffed? Yea in some cases they were less than favorable. I was always on the side of just good old fashioned better play. I saw and still see lots of people running in straight lines, not using cover or movement to avoid damage. Don't get into that open a shoot out with a Thorn user. Strategy is not being used at all in most cases. Then the best part is when a team actually uses strategy people crap all over it as an exploit. So instead of actually trying to get better at the game most seem complain about things being OP. When you get enough complaints then it kind of forces action to be taken in an effort to placate those individuals. I dunno I kind of miss the old days. You know when games were legit broken due to glitches or just plain hard as hell to beat. We still managed to find ways around those problems and still enjoyed the game. The sense of achievement you felt. Just glorious victory. I don't know about anyone else but I never had issues with WHAT gun was used to kill me. I died cause I sucked. Then I knew what not to do again. Tried something else, learned from my mistakes. Mostly though I just suck at Crucible. Lol
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Edited by Adam: 3/4/2015 11:03:21 PMNo. They couldn't before the nerf..... The top Tier weapons are Hand Cannons and nothing competes with them. I'd much rather have come up against a team of Suros users than a team of Hand Cannons users the last Iron Banner. This patch completely destroyed the weapon balance. Auto Rifles are unusable.
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Reading all these posts, I've notice two things. First, Bungie looked at all their data and had a choice: Add new maps favoring longer distances or change existing ones. Or they could adjust the gun performance. One of these costs a shitload less money to implement. Second, Bungie needs to be more transparent with their data and direction for the game. I see little actual hard data posts and a lot of opinion. This is mostly Bungie's fault for not making the data that affects their decisions available for everyone to see and do their own theorycrafting. Personally, I would love to see more posts that dive into the data, so I could actual make and have informed opinions about this game. If ARs are that bad now, I would like to see some real research into how much or be able to do my own. Also, I think people are confused about this last update as if it was unwarranted. People liked their guns as is, or they were bitching about someone else's being OP. Bungie dove into the data and decided to make changes that [u]served their purposes not yours.[/u] You can disagree with their rationale, but you will get nowhere agruing about what percentage your gun got nerfed or how someone else's should be.
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1 Reply[spoiler]this[/spoiler]
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3 RepliesARs are the easiest weapons to use so it makes sense they have slightly slower TTK. Most ARs only take an extra shot to kill than before. They don't feel much less effective than they were before the last nerf.
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3 RepliesI think Bungie screwed up a tad. I agree that the high impact ARs like Suros and Vanquisher needed to be nerfed a tad, but they applied it to every AR. So now weapons like Atheons ep, hard light and Necrochasm are underwhelming. They need to fix this.
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Honestly the nerf was a bit to much.
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I have never used an AR in the crucible, and so cannot offer any incite into that. Reason being that when I use them in PVE, they seem to take too much ammunition to kill anything. I have a few of them and always toyed with the idea, but they just don't fit my play style.
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First of all hand cannons were already the best guns. even when suros was "broken" the last word and hawkmoon were much better assuming you were somewhat accurate. Hell even before 1.11 patch most hand cannons would win a suros 1 on 1 any day. This patch really confused me becaus all they had to do was test the dps of hawkmoon and suros and notice suros losses everytime. also they made the ok auto rifle bad and the bad auto rifle unusable.
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8 RepliesWhen you say 'Top Tier' are you referring to exotics, or legendaries or both? I'm not personally aware of any exotic AR-- as I've not found such or heard of such, but I don't know everything. The 'Vex' and 'Red Death' sound like exotics, thus I would expect them to be significantly superior to any non-exotic AR. IMHO.
