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12/4/2022 5:34:54 PM
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The Witness goes by many names; The Winnower, The Voice in the Darkness, etc. However the one we're going with in-game thanks to Savathun is The Witness.
Then there's the opposing entity: We call it The Traveler. Eliksni and Cabal call it a Machine. In opposition to The Winnower, it's also called The Gardener. It has a voice as well (Lore tab for Ghost Shell in Vow of the Disciple)
Season of Drifter when we were told about "The Game" that Light and Dark are playing in. The Winnower / Witness believes in power over all, the true Final Shape is Survival of the Fittest, all those who are weaker will perish. "No more Death.... No more Life...." In the end, it basically seeks eradication of all sentient life or perhaps it will gift the last remaining species with immortality as a reward for winning "The game".
The Gardener / Traveller seeks Peace through Cooperation. A belief that at some point, everyone can set aside their differences and work in harmony. This is the game they play, a competition of beliefs.
However, historically, The Traveller has always lost. The story we play is not the first time this game was played, we're on an unknown amount of restarts and Elsie Bray is the only person alive right now who has an idea on how many times this game was played out.
Dark Future lore books from Beyond Light state how one of those games ended: Dark Guardians vs what remained of Light Guardians and our character was not on the Light. Eris was the main "Queen" of Dark Guardians as well. Ikora and Drifter were dead, Mara Sov and Zavala were making one final desperate attack against the Dark Guardians while holding the Traveller captive with the Leviathan after it tried to flee again. During the battle, Mara Sov died from a betrayal by Ana Bray, who was killed by Elsie shortly after. Zavala was overrun and in one final moment, the Traveller sent Elsie back in time to the celebration parade when Cayde-6 was marked the new Hunter Vanguard after killing Taniks. We do not know how often that happened though, and Elsie has been trying to find the right methods to stop it from happening again.
Back to The Witness, that's probably their entire point. To witness this game of theirs play out. It's won before, and it probably believes it will win again regardless of how many resets the Traveller makes.
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Your entire comment fell flat from the very beginning because the Witness is NOT the Winnower. Two completely separate beings
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The witness is called the winnower by whom?
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Edited by The-IIID-Emp1r3: 12/6/2022 10:04:04 AM[quote]The story we play is not the first time this game was played, we're on an unknown amount of restarts and Elsie Bray is the only person alive right now who has an idea on how many times this game was played out.[/quote] Not restarts but rather timelines, Elsies ended up being bad, she's been to other ones where for example the Darkness won way before the Traveler came to the Sol system, another where there were no Hive on the moon, one where we died right then and there fighting them the first time we fought em, etc If the Worldline Zero exotic sword is to be interpreted, including it initial skin for it (Positive Infinity, most likely a hint that in the end, we will be alright. Specially when you consider the sword we got in 30th anniversary that says "After every age of darkness, an age of light" so it must surely have some kind of significance that things will get better in the end) , we are in worldline 0, the true middle timeline world, Elsies might have been worldline 1,2,3 or even -6 for all we know, but what is good to know so far is everything that happened in her timeline hasn't happened to us (Cabal, Fallen allies, Eris didn't fall to darkness, Ana didn't turn evil, Drifter wasn't found frozen dead inside of Deep Stone Crypt, last city hasn't been hit from all sides by Fallen, Cabal, Pyramids and Hive and we haven't turned evil so there's that) [quote]the Traveller sent Elsie back in time to the celebration parade when Cayde-6 was marked the new Hunter Vanguard after killing Taniks [/quote] Technically it isn't the traveler that did it, the traveler essentially destroyed everything by blowing itself up like a nuke destroying the universe (and time itself for it), the reason why she keeps getting sent back is the same reason why in all timelines she and her old man clovis would travel to (specific coordinates to locations) different timelines to find her gun No Time To Explain grasped in the hands of alternate versions of herself where she has died, my guess is the Elsie of our timeline is dead too, dead in the snows of Europa trying to protect DSC or whatever. In the lore tab for the gun though it seems to indicate that that gun was created well before she was, yet for some reason they need to retrieve the gun from those timelines which is weird, what's even more weird is that in our timeline originally the version we got from that one VoG quest said "soon" on the barrel but the one we get in Beyond Light prior to meeting with her says "now" like the canonical one she / Clovis retrieves from her dead corpses, I'm surprised we haven't ever bothered to ask her where her other self is in our timeline.. so my guess is that she's linked to each version of herself in all timelines (most likely through Vex mad scientist research from Clovis managing to put a time machine deadman switch inside her, which then by proxy exists across all timelines, that links her mind to another if she dies, basically frog hop onto another, syncs her memories with past Elsie) Then there's the fact that each DSC gun has the enscribed names of each Bray family member on it but with a twist, each of them was turned into an exo at one point or another or was meant to be, these guns might be retrieved from varying timelines (they can't be commemorative weapons made in their honor otherwise they would just use their names, not exo revision 1 designation, would make no sense) just like the ones Elsie and old man Clovis were retrieving
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ICEI’m coming home, Ace. - old
This was what I was thinking as well. I have a feeling we lose in light fall… and that the final shape is us figuring out how to use the light without the traveler. I also believe the witness will lose, and that it will be a lose lose situation for all. Then, somehow, it ends up alright. Idk how, that’s just my feeling. -
I have a feeling that while the Traveler falls in Lightfall, it "wins" the game in Final Shape. Hear me out: The Darkness follows the principle of simplicity through the Sword Logic. The Witness, as its agent, seeks to whittle down all of creation to a single species that has proven itself worthy through the Sword Logic (or down to just itself... jury is out on this). The Light follows the principle of complexity through the Bomb Logic. The Traveler, as its agent, seeks to create a diversity of existence that can work together. So... what do we have going on in Sol? We have a coalition of the Eliksni of House Light, Humanity, the Awoken, Ciatyl's Cabal, and possibly-in the future- Savathun's Lucient Brood (jury is still out on her role). Sounds like a pretty complex group working towards the same goal. Even if the Traveler falls, it ultimately wins if our coalition survives and is victorious. What else do we have going on in Sol? The Witness has been forced into fighting outside of its principle. The Traveler has partially "won the argument" because the Witness has been forced into creating its own coalition of Xivu's Hive, Calus's Cabal, the Fallen of House Salvation, the Scorn, and the Taken. The Witness has been forced into using a complex force. And its downfall will be its complex force being unable to work effectively. Already, it has weakened its coalition by its desecration of House Salvation. I expect to see infighting between the Hive and Fallen. I doubt Calus and Xivu will work togther well either. The Witness seeks to win each battle; simple warfare. But the Traveler knows how to sacrifice one battle so that the war can be won in the end. It has spent eons "blessing" species and then leaving them to destruction when the Witness arrives. But, after abandoning the Eliksni after the whirlwind, it comes to Humanity; and, when the Witness arrives, it stands it ground, sacrifices itself, and creates the ghosts (thereby creating the Guardians). Now... for the first time, we have multiple species ready to fight the Witness. I don't think it changed its MO because we're special; I think it changed its MO because when Savathun moved to protect it during the Collapse, it finally saw hope for a coalition in the future.
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ICE
I’m coming home, Ace. - old
This is probably exactly what happens. You nailed it bro. -
My current hope for a Destiny 3 is that once we deal with the Light and Dark saga, we end in a position where we can leave the Solar System and go to new locations in an attempt to expand Humanity (Maybe along with our Eliksni and Cabal friends). Perhaps we find the Exiled FWC and Dead Orbit groups out there, but mostly a chance to get creative with new species.
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ICE
I’m coming home, Ace. - old
What a fantastic idea! It’d be nice to go to fundament, tarabatle, or even the homeworld of the eliksni as well. It’d be neat to also see factions of guardians too, like dark guardians and light guardians still fighting after the fallout of the final shape. It’d be cool to see if other races get the light too, like the eliksni and cabal and hive. Then we could spread out across the universe and help rebuild the worlds lost to the hive and the witness -
[quote]What a fantastic idea! It’d be nice to go to fundament, tarabatle, or even the homeworld of the eliksni as well. It’d be neat to also see factions of guardians too, like dark guardians and light guardians still fighting after the fallout of the final shape. It’d be cool to see if other races get the light too, like the eliksni and cabal and hive. Then we could spread out across the universe and help rebuild the worlds lost to the hive and the witness[/quote] Fundament is destroyed (from the godwave), same with the Eliksni home planet ravaged by the Darkness, as for Torobatl it was turned into a Hive war moon iirc, so ain't much we can do about those Also uhh why would there be Light or Darkness during that time if the point of the final shape is that it'll be the end of both of those ? Sure they said it'll be the end of that story, but they never said what comes next will be the same ol' destiny we got now even if what comes after it will still take place in the same destiny franchise universe
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I think the Final Shape will be a combination of Light and Dark. The Guardians grow more powerful as we wield the Light and the Dark. My theory is the Traveler falls during Lightfall, the Witness falls during Final shape, and the Guardians become the sole paracausal beings as a balance of Light and Dark. And... I think "Guardians" will include Eliksni, Cabal, and Hive.
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ICE
I’m coming home, Ace. - old
Fundament wasn’t destroyed, we found out that the witness lied to savathun about that in order to get them to join the darkness. As for the other planets, that’s why I said rebuilding the civilizations there would be a cool thing for the destiny universe to continue. Maybe the final shape isn’t an end to light and dark as far as the two entities existing, but more of an end to the original saga. Regardless we will find out eventually what bungie plans are, this is just a forum for sharing ideas and being creative. -
Edited by Daemon White: 12/4/2022 5:42:03 PMAddition: The Vex. They were possibly created by The Witness at one point, but while the goal of the Vex somewhat aligns with the goals of the Final Shape, the Vex go the extra step and desire eradication of ALL life. Being a networked hivemind of machines, the Vex aren't necessarily a sentient life which makes them more of an obstacle than anything else and essentially not part of "The Game". They cannot exist in harmony with other life, they do not listen to The Witness and it's goals. There is the prophecy wall in Vow of the Disciple. We don't have a symbol for the final icon, and Vex is not an icon in the raid. What if the Witness destroys them after drinking the light?
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Edited by The-IIID-Emp1r3: 12/19/2022 6:40:15 AM[quote]Addition: The Vex. They were possibly created by The Witness at one point, but while the goal of the Vex somewhat aligns with the goals of the Final Shape, the Vex go the extra step and desire eradication of ALL life. Being a networked hivemind of machines, the Vex aren't necessarily a sentient life which makes them more of an obstacle than anything else and essentially not part of "The Game". They cannot exist in harmony with other life, they do not listen to The Witness and it's goals. There is the prophecy wall in Vow of the Disciple. We don't have a symbol for the final icon, and Vex is not an icon in the raid. What if the Witness destroys them after drinking the light?[/quote] False, the Vex are the first primordial beings that have been brought into existence after the Tree of Silver Wings in the Black Garden fell, essentially creating all time and space (the universe) and life itself, so technically the Vex started off as measly little bacteria but evolved to what they are now after an extremely long time. Also they don't desire eradication for the sake of killing everything out of pure evil, the Vex destroy all who stand in their way to survival, their end goal is to become one with the very fabric of reality so that they cannot go extinct, sure there's various factions of Vex, some don't see eye to eye (eg. Some Vex in the Black Garden sometimes get into little fights with those of the Sol Divisive and the Undying Mind [now eradicated by us across all timelines], as it was a Vex Mind so old and powerful that even other Vex were afraid of hence the infighting) Edit: source for other Vex of the Collective having fights with the Sol Divisive Vex - "Aspect" lore book, page "Epistemic"
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The vex aren’t really machines though, they are biological
