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Edited by MC 077 Lasombra:
11/9/2018 5:39:08 PM
61
To clarify some, when the Hive took off from the surface of Fundament they did not leave. They spent many years fighting the Ecumene over the moons of Fundament.
Plenty close to see the wave kill trillions.
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The Hive fought the Ammonites at the ice moons of the Fundament, not the Ecumene. The Ecumene crusades took place over 24,000 years after the Fundament. Regardless, the Hive weren't present for the God-Wave. Oryx said he never found out what became of it, and in the early days of the Hive dynasty, they stuck together in their travels, so his sisters or their brood wouldn't have seen it either.
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I always call the Ammonites Ecumene by mistake thanks tho lol Verse 2:7 Even as your sisters press the attack against the Ammonites, the God-Wave devastates Fundament. Trillions will die. But the survivors will never forget... and their descendants will always be ready for another syzygy. Did they stick around until it was over and saw who survived and what happened? No. Did they stick around long enough to see the wave in action? Yes.
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All the reports that we get on the God-Wave are from the Worms, and never one of the actual sisters. They said it was comming, and that was proof enough for them.
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There were in orbit fighting on the moons while it was moving. Hence why Oryx can say he doesn’t know what came of it, they were there during but not after. The timing of when the Worms reference it is during the fight on the Ammonites moons. Unless you can say that the moons are too far for them to see the surface, that the wave is only mentioned by the Worm Gods is irrelevant. Also the Leviathan speaks of the wave. Pretty solid to me.
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Edited by Kell of Rain: 11/10/2018 3:21:07 PMThe Fundament was also enormous, and they likely only saw a fraction of it from the Moons. It was said that it would've taken two years to reach them when they were still on the Fundament, so there's more than enough wiggle room that the Hive wouldn't have seen it. Also the Leviathan was a pretty religious guy, and spoke with a lot of metaphors and symbolism. The 'Wave' could easily refer to the destruction of the Fundament in general, which Oryx had become.
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Edited by MC 077 Lasombra: 11/10/2018 9:02:36 PMYou do know orbit means circling [i]around[/i] the planet? You see more then a fraction. Especially over time... I see you’ve made a final stand. Here is a third reference. Verse 1:7 They heard the collision of continents. They heard the patter and the crash of helium-neon rain. They heard the struggles of monsters. And they heard the distant groan of the ocean rising. Tugged by distant moons. “The syzygy is real...” Sathona hissed. “It’s already begun.” Can’t wiggle around anymore. The Dark, Light and plain Jane mortals all confirmed the God Wave happened. The Traveler killed trillions.
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Edited by Kell of Rain: 11/11/2018 1:14:48 AMMoons do in fact orbit their planets, but we don't know the astrological conditions of the Fundament. Moon revolutions can range from a couple hours to multiple decades and planetary axis rotations can take several hundred days to complete. Not to mention if the formation has a prograde rotation, a planet and it's moons could look lile they're moving in sync given the right conditions. Given that there was never a verse where Auryx and his sisters looked down and saw the Wave, then they likely didn't see the Wave. As for the sisters hearing the syzygy, the Worms could hold up the weight of an entire Gas Giant at it's core with their minds. You think they can't shift around some continental fragments and mix up the current to startle a couple 5 year olds? You don't find it coincidental that Sathona, who the Worms psychicly manipulated into bringing her sisters to them, says that the syzygy was real and not Aurash who was the one actually obsessed with it?
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Edited by MC 077 Lasombra: 11/11/2018 1:57:31 AMSo we get three different sources who confirm the wave was happening but your what-ifs somehow contradict it. Read the excerpt. It says they. Not just one heard it. Amazing. Somehow the lore isn’t lore when it doesn’t suit you. You’re wasting my time.
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My "what-ifs" leave room for plausible deniability, something you said wasn't possible. And I didn't say Sathona was the only one to hear the noise of the "syzygy", I said Sathona (who the Worms had manipulated in the past) was the one to declare the sounds they heard as the syzygy, and how that's a rather odd detail since Aurash was the one who was so concerned about it. And it is funny, since everything I've said on the subject entirely possible in the lore. So if your time is so valuable to you, you're free to do with it as you will.
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You also said that only the Worm Gods mentioned it. Which is [i]categorically false[/i]. The Leviathan and Krill corroborated it. None of your what-ifs have any in game support. So they can’t be used to disprove something that [i]is[/i] in the lore. Don’t be a knucklehead. [i]Anything[/i] is plausible when you remove the need to have support. The Traveler being our Guardians daddy is plausible because nothing indicates it isn’t true. Not the best kind of logic, now is it? Instead of defending the idea when it’s critically flawed you should spend your time refining it or coming up with something new. I think I’ll reserve responding to you for when I’m in the bathroom and have nothing else to do. Like now.
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I said the Worms were the only ones assuring Auryx of the validity of the God-Wave, not the only creatures to ever utter the words "Wave" in all of existence, I'm sorry you're having a hard time understanding things that aren't blatantly spelt out for you. And events that take place completly outside the game don't have in-game evidence? Color me shocked. Where's the in-game proof that the God-Wave ever happened then? When did Oryx tell the Guardians he witnessed the Traveler destroy his home with a syzygy? When did Xol ever say that the Traveler had killed just as much life as he had? Nowhere? Well I guess it never happened or isn't in the realm of possibility of happening, because as we all know the lore needs to be in-game to be considered actual lore, and isn't apart of Destiny's extended universe outside the game. I'm sorry deductive reasoning is such a critically flawed logic to you, but if this is the best argument you can muster, it seems rather fitting that you'd be in the bathroom while writing it.
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Where is the in game proof? This thing called the book of sorrow? Where it’s mentioned multiple times? I mean you believe in the Fundament, the Ammonites, the time line of that period of history. Things that only come from the BoS. Yet, magically, when part of that lore disproves your fan fiction idea, the lore isn’t lore. Just in those specific areas. Not convenient at all lol Pretty sure they weren’t speaking of waves in general. Funny how you think they are just being general when they specifically refer to it. “Deductive reasoning” indeed lol The sisters heard it, confirming it was in the beginning stages. The Leviathan doesn’t question the existence of it, merely the cause. The Worm Gods mention is multiple times. We know it happened because multiple sources, two of the main which aren’t allies and therefore have no reason to conspire to fake the event, confirmed it. More deductive reasoning in action. What isn’t deductive is saying they couldn’t see it from orbit when there is no reason too. It’s not like one of the sisters mentioned not seeing it while fighting the Ammonites, right? What isn’t deductive is saying that all plausible possibilities have to be disproven before the [i]stated lore[/i] can be accepted. That is just stupid. Stop thinking this is your own personal fan fiction. The fact that I have to school you on deductive reasoning while dropping a deuce should make you ashamed of yourself.
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You're criticizing my interpretation of events in the Books of Sorrow for being fan fiction by saying your interpretation is fact. You do see a discrepancy in that, no? You think things are exactly as they are written, I think that there was something going on behind the scenes, and everything that we know about the characters involved can support that. The only ones who assure the sisters that the God-Wave was happening was the Worms. The Leviathan, although he does say the word wave, could easily be referring to what "Wave" represents in context to the Fundament, same as how he refers to the Light as the Sky, or the Darkness as the Deep. What the sisters heard could've easily been the Worms shifting around continental fragments and shaking up the current above them, how would they know the differences between that and the God-Wave? They never would've heard either. Why was Sathona, someone the Worms could psychicly manipulate into saying way they want, so eager to declare what they heard as the God-Wave? Nowhere do the sisters see the actual God-Wave. That's enough pieces of evidence to come to a logical conclusion that it's possible the God-Wave didn't happen. Not fan fiction, just a theory. You seem to be having a hard time understanding that.
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Edited by MC 077 Lasombra: 11/12/2018 4:29:13 AMSo my going by the letter of the lore is somehow equivalent to your biased broad stroking “interpretation” of the lore? Are you on drugs? Conflating those two? This isn’t Oryx musing about cosmic philosophy. That could be argued to be subjective and incorrect because of it. This is describing [i]events[/i] that drove the Krill to [i]desperation[/i] and agreeing to the Worm Pact. The Leviathan said who caused the wave. Who [i]caused[/i] the wave. [b][i]CAUSED[/i][/b] You don’t question the cause of something that doesn’t exist. Caused, as in it’s there but he is casting doubt to who is responsible. Not casting doubt to its existence. Is your comprehension that poor? If he meant the wave as being the Fundament then that’s utterly off point in the discussion. They are not discussing cosmic creation. Or the history of the planet. Are they? No. The Krill are talking about imminent doom and their desire to survive it. The Leviathan, by him casting doubt on the causation, can’t be interpreted as doubting its existence. You can’t question the cause of something that isn’t there. The only interpretations his line leaves room for is that either the Wave was a naturally occurring phenomenon or was instigated by something other then the Traveler. The Worm Gods were there for millions of years and the Needle ship was proof that some prior advanced species tried getting the Worms out. Millions of years is plenty to time to note astronomical events like the lining up of the moons. Giving them time to seed the civilizations of the surface with prophecies of impending doom to drive desperate species into the Worm Pact. See what I did? I used the lore to look for explanations that don’t require [i]dismissing[/i] lore. That is deductive reasoning. You [i]connect[/i] the dots. You don’t [i]erase[/i] some and [i]make[/i] new ones. That is intuitive reasoning.
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You're following the lore [b][i]Written by a heavily biased source[/i][/b] to a letter. Oryx isn't omnipotent, he didn't know everything that was going on, and that's reflected by the fact that he never actually saw the God-Wave. You're interpreting everything that Oryx says as true, I'm not. The Leviathan's use of the word "Wave" could easily be in reference to the devastation the Fundament went through. The Hive destroyed all the other civilizations living on the Fundament. They caused the destruction, they became the Wave, the Leviathan doesn't always speak in literal terms, so his speech shouldn't be considered to be literal at all times. I haven't made anything up at all. Tell me one thing that I've said that isn't true? What evidence that I've presented that leads me to believe the God-Wave never happened is inconsistent with anything in the lore?
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It’s written by Oryx. The Book of Sorrows, the writer who described what the waters of Fundament sounded like, what was said by the Leviathan and who orbited Fundament across 52 moons for who knows how long is Oryx. The very person who you questioned never mentioned the Wave is the very person who described hearing what was the amassing of a great wave. It was Savathona who spoke it out loud but it was Oryx who [i]described what it sounded like[/i]. The person you think never confirmed it actually has. You read it and didn’t make that basic connection. Now...wanna keep playing?
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You have a very meager definition of what confirmation is as well as a very poor memory. I never said Oryx never mentioned the God-Wave. I said that, in all the Verses of the Books of Sorrow, Oryx has [i]never[/i] laid one of his three eyes on the God-Wave. Not once. You think that the sisters hearing a sound and someone says it was the God-Wave means that it was confirmed to be the God-Wave? Even more, the person to propose that it was the syzygy they were hearing was the one being psychically manipulated at the time. You don't find that the least bit suspicious? Of course you don't, it isn't directly stated to you. So I'll say it once more for you; the Worms have incredibly powerful psychic abilities and have held up the weight of a Gas Giant at it's core. It is entirely within their range of skills to be able to psychically slam a few rocks together and move some water above the Needle ship and then tell Sathona to say that it was the syzygy to the others. And all of that if backed up by 'in-game" lore. So yes, I'd still like to "play", because something tells me you think your arguments are more sound than they actually are.
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Well if you want to discount a part of the Book you don’t like due to Worm manipulation then the [i]entire[/i] Book has to be discounted because the worms are around the whole time. Again with that oh so self-serving selective “interpretation” and “deductive reasoning” I see. You can’t even keep up with what you say. 🤣 You said isn’t it odd that Sathona and not Oryx remarked that the sounds sounded like the Wave. Remarking of the Worm manipulation for why Sathona thinks it’s the Wave and Oryxs lack of concern. lol and behold it was Oryx who describes what the sounds sounded like. Showing that indeed Oryx did hear it. You just forgot who wrote the book it seems... Refuting your Sathona was manipulated idea. But who cares you got something wrong again, right? Oh well now that you know he did confirm the sounds it’s back to the manipulation. This time Oryx is being manipulated based on nothing? Now the goal post is that he’s never [i]seen[/i] it. First it was confirm now it’s seen. Oh and before that it was only the Worm Gods who reported on the Wave. Once more proven false. You set a goalpost and lose then move the post, lose and move it and act like it never happened. This is just getting sad.
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If someone proposed that the entire Books of Sorrow was Worm Propaganda and had substantial evidence to back up their claims, then yeah I'd say that their interpretation is valid. I didn't say that Sathona was the only one to remark on the sounds, I said she was the one to [b][i]declare[/i][/b] that the sounds were the God-Wave. Keep in mind that the Books of Sorrow weren't being written as they happened, even if Oryx wrote that the sound was the God-Wave doesn't mean that she knew it at the time. And I never said Oryx didn't hear the sounds, how can you not understand literally anything I've said? For someone who interprets everything literally, you seem to be having a hard time with that. Im not saying the sounds never existed, I'm saying the [b]Worms[/b] created the [i]Sound[/i] with their [i][b]Psychic powers[/b][/i] and then told [u]Sathona[/u] to tell her sisters that it was the [b]Syzygy[/b]. Can you comprehend that or should I break it down further than I already have? Oryx never confirmed the God-Wave existed, you want to know why? Because he never saw it himself! He believed the Worms on their word and they were the only ones assuring him that the God-Wave was happening. I've been consistent this entire conversation, but you're too high off your own ego to notice.
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Substantial evidence? Yet you require [i]no evidence[/i] for your ideas when they contradict lore..... Consistent? My ass lol Only the Worm Gods reported on the Wave. Wrong, Oryx and Leviathan mention it. Oryx never referenced it when they heard the sounds. Wrong, Oryx is the one who described what they sounded like. Oryx never saw the wave, no evidence. Savthona and Oryx were tricked by the sounds, no evidence The Leviathan was being metaphorical, no evidence. So your ideas require no evidence and in fact have to be disproven....others need substantial evidence. Hmmm whose got the ego? Consistent...riiiiiight lol
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Edited by Kell of Rain: 11/13/2018 4:07:18 AMOnly two points that you list are accurate to my actual argument and the rest you've altered to fit with your poorly structured counter argument. The first one if that Oryx never saw the God-Wave. What proves this point isn't evidence in favor of my interpretation, rather lack of evidence in you're belief that the God-Wave happened. I don't have to prove anything. Oryx was never said to have seen the God-Wave and nothing about the Books of Sorrow suggest that he ever did. Quite the opposite in that he said he never learned what happened with it, suggesting that he never saw it to begin with. The burden of proof falls to you. So tell me, where's the evadence that Oryx saw the God-Wave? The second point that you list that is even somewhat accurate to my argument is that the Leviathan was being metaphorical. Again, I don't have to argue anything. The Leviathan doesn't speak in literal terms at all times. So long as his use of the term "Wave" makes sense in a metaphorical context (which it does), his words interpreted in a literal sense can't be used to confirm a point. The rest of the points you mention are a far cry from my actual argument, so I'll assume you're either not cognitively equipped to understand the points I've actually made or too childish to admit that you have no counter argument to them and choose to debate against a skewed version of my argument, one that I never actually made to begin with. So if trying to alter someone's argument to prove a point is all you've got, I'd say we're done here.
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Edited by MC 077 Lasombra: 11/13/2018 7:43:12 AMThe burden of proof isn’t on you when you start declaring what is and isn’t true? That someone is lying or being misled when there isn’t anything to show it? Or that something that is confirmed by multiple sources isn’t real? A lot of “that’s wrong it’s this” with no evidence to prove it’s wrong or your right? Yet the burden [i]isn’t[/i] on you? 🤡 You don’t have to prove your idea? Since when is the burden of proof not on the person proposing the idea? You are either stupid or so desperate to fool yourself you aren’t using your basic faculties. Alter? You started with only the Worm Gods reported on the Wave. That’s it. I’ve been generous in letting you make up new standards and disproving then too. Then we see the Leviathan and Oryx reference it. Then you [i]change it[/i] to Oryx hasn’t [i]seen[/i] it. Then when it’s pointed out they were in Orbit Around Fundament and would be in a position to see it or not then it’s “he never said he saw it so he didn’t”. Where does Oryx ever say he didn’t see it? He never does. The Leviathan isn’t always literal. Your idea that he meant the Hive is disproven. The Hive are credited with taking over a measly 2% of the surface, verse 2.2, in the next one they are in space. So can’t be that they are the wave that destroys Trillions on Fundament. Metaphorical idea [i]disproven[/i]. But I got more. The burden [i]does[/i] fall on you to show that he is being metaphorical because there is nothing to suggest he [i]wasn’t[i] talking about the wave that the sisters had just mentioned as part of their reason for turning to the Deep. Context you sad sap. When someone says they are doing X because of Y and you [i]know[/i] Y doesn’t exist you don’t ask them who [i]made[/i] Y [i]happen[/i]. You tell them Y doesn’t exist. His word ars “who summoned the wave” not “what wave” or “you’ve been tricked”. 🤡 It’s amazing you think I’m twisting your stance. You keep changing it, each time I show something to prove you wrong. It’s also an abysmal proposition, telling a lie that is so easy to confirm right or wrong. Do you think they’d tell a lie that could be disproven by a simple flight around Fundament? Especially considering the Worm Gods put them in orbit, where it would been seen? Are the Worm Gods that incompetent? Can’t be since you give them sooo much credit in mind games. Good golly. They are so powerful and tricky yet they just tell the dumbest of lies! You talk about deductive reasoning. All I see is a bad fan fic writer who can’t stomach being wrong. Pathetic.
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Yet again, you prove that you can't argue against an actual point I've made and choose to tweak them instead so that your counter points might seem more solid than they are. You don't understand how evadence works and are only able to comprehend what's directly in front of you so long as it fits your interpretation. You seek to infuriate someone with an opposing view point rather than prove that yours is more sound. Its childish and tells me everything I need to know about the validity of your actual interpretation. Like I said, if all you can do is alter arguments to better find security in your own view points and sling insults, then we're done.
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I dunno. Stated lore vs your fan fiction Pretty sure stated lore wins. The wave is confirmed by multiple sources. Your what-ifs to dispute those confirmations are wholly unsupported. Since you can’t refute stated lore with what-ifs and I’ve shown you made glaring mistakes in making your fic, like Oryx mentioning the wave when you said he never did...I’d say you are done. So if you’re done, I don’t blame you. Gotta be hard to trick yourself after so many corrections. But hey at least you tried 😎
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Edited by Kell of Rain: 11/14/2018 8:00:23 PMYou've literally corrected me a sum total of zero times, but it's rather humorous that you think you have. Like I said before, Oryx is a biased source, and as such makes him an unreliable narrator. So your stated lore is little more than a perspective, like how my supposed "fan fiction" is. A perspective from a character in the game, but a perspective none the less.
