Crucible doesn't need to be fixed the loot system does

nobody cares about your TTK data ! the PVP is full of garbage tactics, all team shooting or running after guardians that are already low health

Pulse rifles should have increased stability across the board allowing for more crits if the TTK won't be changed. Increasing the stability is a good start for these weapons. Right now their stability is atrocious

HC are great. Bloom makes them better and more balanced. ARs are ok but could use less recoil overall. Pulse rifles are eactly right. We need Vision of Confluence back. Hard Light needs to stop totally with the screen shake and the recoil needs to be toned down alot.

Finally someone gets it. The slow time to kill mouth breathers will fight you despite the [b]MATH[/b] being obvious. Everything's so bland weak and the same. [b]indeed[/b] Why use a handcannon when both have same time to kill and scout rifles achieve optimal TTK much easier?

1. Because Bungie doesn't want you standing around outgunning Scout Rifles with your hand cannon. SRs and snipers are the game's long range weapons. Hand Cannons are intended for short to mid-range work. Bloom is in the game because there isn't a hand gun in the world that is as accurate under repeat fire as a rifle. I would use a hand cannon, because HCs allow me to fight from cover more effectively than a SR, thus presenting my enemy a difficult target. 2. No one uses pulse rifles because of the map size. A burst-fire weapon (pulse rifle) is a COMPROMISE weapon to get some of the volume of fire of an automatic weapon, and the precision of a semi-auto one. In this game, they are supposed to fit in-inbetween the shorter optimal range of ARs, and the longer range but lower VOF of SRs. The problem is that---in order to keep ARs relevant in the much larger PVE play spaces of PVE, Bungie had to increase the range of ARs. But at the same time because of the switch to 4v4 in the Crucible, map size has been reduced. So the optimal ranges of ARs and SRs OVERLAP. So anyone running a PR is going to outgunned by someone with an AR...and out-critted by someone with a SR. Which is why trying to define "balance" as "equal usage" of all weapons types without factoring in map design is a fool's errand (Jon Weisznewski). 3. Agree that PRs need a buff. Otherwise the things will just never get used in PVP given the current map design situation. Disagree on hand cannons. The problem isn't bloom or their damage drop off. Bungie needs to give them their aim assist back. The difference between D1 an D2 handcannons is that Bungie ratched them WAY back in terms of aim-assist for D2. Also, all the game's weapons need to have their in-air accuracy reset to D1 levels. Its annoying as shit to miss shots that you know you would have made in Destiny 1.

I like the thread mate! I didnt read all the comments but I will add a few things. 1) "aim assist" is a BIG one. Most of the "Pros" actually use handcanons the most. Which wouldnt make sense right? but its true... 2) Some Pulses (such as Vigilance) is also used a TON by pros... Its a 3 shot even if you dont get all headshots. The other thing though, is that according to TTK everyone would use high impact HCs with lower TTK but most use Old Fashioned or BD which are 4 hit kills (without kill clip). I actually think what COULD be good for the game would be lowering base Guardian HP to ~165 (from 186?) Which would actually change TTK. my FEAR is this game already has a fast TTK with team shooting. Sometimes I peak and get insta death from 3 team shots at once.... which would make teamshot even more powerful. So in order to do this, you would need to reduce all aim assist a little, across the board, because right now its FAR too easy to get headshots. I remember Halo 1/2 which IMO were the "prime" of Halo games. Halo 1 Pistol, was a 3 shot, but.. for the "average" gamer getting a headshot wasnt a freebie. So most players took 4 or 5 shots to kill. Halo 2, Battle Rifle, you could strafe - outstrafe enemies and was a 4 shot (or two with PPBR combo) but point is, it took an average gamer 5 or 6 shots with a BR to kill, which combined with nades you COULD 1v2, or combined with a stronger melee you could 1v2... Dropping base HP to ~160-165 I think would make Melee a 2 hit kill, which is about right. Anyways, thanks for reading my rant.

I know you’ll outright flame me for this, but you’ve got to keep the casual player perspective in mind because that’s the target player demographic. I suck at PvP. It’s an anxiety issue, for me. If I die too fast, or unexpectedly, or from ranges I cannot cover, I quit playing. Not just Crucible. I leave Destiny, turn off my console, and go do something else to burn off my frustration. If I keep dying to the same gun over and over, I equip that same gun and do my best to return the favor. I may fail but I get to feel like I’m on even ground. I could not play Crucible in Destiny 1. It triggered my anxiety far too fast, every time. I deeply loathed Bungie’s practice of forcing me into Crucible to complete weapon quests and other objectives, especially those which required positive K/D. However, I LOVE playing Crucible in Destiny 2. I still suck, but it doesn’t trigger my anxiety nearly as often. I can play Crucible for hours at a time and eventually quit on a happy note. I might be the “cannon fodder” or “bullet magnet” or “idiot who keeps falling off the map” (I swear, Bungie needs to install guard rails on some of those maps!), but I have FUN playing Crucible In Destiny 2! And that’s what matters. Not technical analysis. Not feeling over-powered. Not having a God-roll gun to lord over anyone else. But to offer the most fun to the most people. I really like every aspect of PvP In Destiny 2, except Trials of the Nine. Getting curb-stomped in there triggers my anxiety super fast. But the regular Crucible with its longer TTKs, smaller teams, and smaller maps is perfect for casual, mediocre players like me. And in all fairness, I die plenty to pulse rifles, hand cannons, and sidearms; mostly to the Vigilance Wing, Better Devils, and Last Hope. Enjoy ripping me apart. I already know how bad I am. 😁

Have said this for 3 years. Thank the Trials community and hardcore PvP players. Anyone with even a hint of foresight knew that giving everything equal kill times would just make everyone use whatever was easiest to land (ARs). Tried pointing this out all through D1 and got shouted the -blam!- down on here by all the streamer-sheep. Now they all hate it. Go figure.

Personally, I rarely used auto rifles in D1. In D2 it seems autos are the only thing worth using. Autos seem to out scout rifle scout rifles.

Stopped reading when you compared range on HC and scout. They are not meant to be the same. Effective range on "primary" class weapons has always been the following (close to far) AR HC Pulse Scout If you add the other D2 "primaries" Sidearms and SMG are before AR in that order. If your making that mistake your other suggestions are bound to be off as well.

Pulse Rifles do less body shot damage, but get a Precision damage multiplier which makes them do more Precision damage, in comparison to ARs. I do not like that either. Precision ARs (450 rpm) got buffed in CoO. They used to do 23/16, now they do 22/17. The difference? No difference in time to kill with Precision hits, but significantly faster with only Body shots. The average realistic time to kill was decreased, meaning the Precision frame got a buff. Big mistake. What should have happened? Precision ARs go from doing 23/16, to 21/16. They used to do 7 Bonus Precision damage, but they would now only do 5. Sure, they now do 5 after the changes that were implemented, but the increase to body damage buffs the already best archetype. ARs scaled as such, 14/11, 17/13, 23/16, 26/20. That was 3, 4, 7, 6. Obviously the Precision ARs did more Precision damage than they should, with regards to scaling. That's where I get my 21/16 from. It results in 3, 4, 5, 6, and is almost certainly the correct way to balance the guns. Again, Bungie dropped the ball on something they could have easily gotten right here, and been done with ARs for the rest of D2. Instead, we will probably see additional AR changes, and it basically causes more trouble than needed. And I didn't even bother with the SR vs HC debate. Do I think Handcannons are correct as is? No. Do I think they should be on par with any Rifle in terms of range? No. Do I know what to do with them? No. Other than possibly just turning them into sidearms that don't take up an Primary, Energy or Power slot. I mean, they are pistols. SMGs are just full auto pistols. Oh well, it is just a game with space magic, so I guess realism doesn't make any sense, ever.

I really can't contest your numbers, since I have no way to do so. But still some of the best PVP players continue to rock the house with Better Devils or similar hand cannons constantly equipped. The issues you cite don't seem to bother them at all. I agree that pulse rifles seem underused as they don't seem effective vs. the competition.