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Edited by The Arc God:
4/23/2017 2:43:40 PM
112
The Downfall of PVP
I have experienced it all. Every phase of PVP to when the vex was broken, to the auto rifle meta, to the thorn meta, and beyond. If I had to choose a time where this game was most "Balanced" it would be the time of the taken king. Pulse rifles and hand cannons felt like strong primaries, and could combat shotguns and snipers pretty well. HOWEVER... NERF NERF NERF NERF NERF.
There is a slowly down turning cycle in the destiny PvP community but it has never been worse than it is right now. This cycle goes as followed:
-the community discovers a gun, or a specific archtype, that is dominant
-our beloved communities and youtubers spread awareness about it, causing a good chunk of players to go get it
-they get good with it
-people cry about it (trials of Osiris)
-nerfed.
Perfect example of this: the last word. Not the last word in the thorn meta because that was broken because of the 111 headshot glitch, but when you could hipfire it and still 2 shot a guardian, with two 99 hip fire headshots. Remember seeing videos, "the last word is still good". The community then got good at hip firing the last word. All of a sudden, hip firing damage has been removed, range has been nerfed. SKILL IN THE COMMUNITY SHOULD NOT EVER BE A REASON YOU NERF SOMETHING BUNGIE.
Now that the cycle is explained, let's get into the trash that is known as current PvP. The repeated nerfs have pushed primaries into a state where they are no longer relevant. As a result, the past 6 months or so have seen a rise in the era of the shotgun. Snipers were still prominent, but thanks to the scope change and nerfs to zoom time , shotguns were more reliable choice for any non-pro sniper. Bungies response to this was taking special ammo upon respawn. ????. IF THERE WAS EVER A MORE LAZY PATCH I HAVE EVER SEEN.
Snipers? Irrelevant. Shotguns? Irrelevant
Fusions?irrelevant .
Then they tried to cover up this laziness, with the poor excuse of wanting a primary meta. Do you know why primaries aren't being used? BECAUSE THEY SUCK BUNGIE.
THEY COULDNT KEEP UP WITH SPECIALS
THATS WHY PEOPLE USED THEIR SPECIAL MORE.
I'm not even gonna start on the sloppiness that followed the patch, where the sidearm respawn "glitch" allowed you to keep your ammo.
Didn't you foresee this happening
Didn't you foresee guns like the Ice Breaker, and sidearms, and universal remote, and No Land Beyond usage percent skyrocketing?
If a player is rushing you with a shotgun, would you rather pull out your Last Word or Wormwood?
It saddens me to say that I feel that a high percentage of the community would say wormwood.
Allow a 15yr old kid to tell you how to fix this garbage meta.
1. Buff Primaries considerably (preferably back to the state of yr1)
If it is true that you want a primary focused meta, this would be a safe move.
2. Bring back special ammo, ONLY when you are sure primaries are strong enough to compete with them. (A slight shotgun range Nerf is understandable, so is a scope buff for snipers)
3. Exotics. Exotics should feel exotic and dominant over legendaries. Instead of trying to attain a meta where exotics aren't used, go for a meta where EVERYBODY should have one equipped. I don't want to see somebody using a Palindrome with luck in the chamber, over a hawkmoon. Offset other exotics strengths, with OTHER exotics.
For example: Bring back the last words hip fire damage, but do not increase the range. Therefore players will love it for close range combat, but will suffer from other exotics at medium range, like the Hawkmoon and First Curse.
Views on type of meta:
Destiny entertains a both competitive and casual gamertype. The problem is when you push towards one side, the other side suffers. We can have a competitive playerbase with the meta we have right now, we really could. But being forced to use guns like IceBreaker and Wormwood is not fun at all.
Year 1 was the best because people could use virtually anything and still feel crispy, solid, and do good. They could play using anything, entertaining the casual style, but on the same hand, everything was for the most part competitive.
I know this was very long and it took me a while, but I felt that it was necessary.
If something doesn't change, I'm not sure PVP will last until Destiny 2.
-Sincerely, CMF Gaming, Coolmanfire
Edit: I like and appreciate all thoughts and opinions expressed in the replies. This is my first post on the forums and I wasn't sure how the feedback was going to be, and I didn't expect this, thank you.
Edit2: ayyyee, we trending ;).
Edit 3: I have replied a lot about icebreaker and wormwood cheating the special ammo system. This is not me complaining about the weapons. They should not be in any way nerfed. Icebreaker has been regening ammo since yr 1, I don't have a problem with the weapon at all. The problem I have is me being forced to use it when I want to win.
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You know your PvP game mode has a severe problem when you can name the top meta guns in the game and your game is out for less than 1 month. Hell Destiny 1 didn't establish a meta until the end of month 2 when people figured out how powerful SUROS was. Last Hope MIDA Any 450 RPM Auto Rifle Any 200 or above RPM Scout and the list goes on
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Edited by FantasticMrFox: 9/17/2017 1:47:39 PMI didn't like PVP to start with in D2, but it's growing on me. Sure team play and positioning are far more important, but I swear some people have forgotten many of the D1 Metas that were lapped up by abusers and try hards like a hungry cat with a saucer of fresh milk. Vex, Suros, Thorn, sliding shotguns, shot package, camping sniper montages vs poor noobs. I didn't think I would say this a few days back, but in some ways D2 Crucible is far more balanced. Just about any gun is competitive if you can position and work well as a team. Super reduction is a very good thing in my view. Pub stomping lone wolfs will hate it, but is that a bad thing? I strangely now find myself applauding some of these changes, although agree it's not perfect, and control doesn't really work in 4s. D1 was broadly categorised by hugely over powered single guns, supers and specials. D2 is team play and primaries. It takes some adjusting, but if you persevere you may enjoy it.
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Totally agree mate. This meta as absolutely ruined the game. You can tell the balancing guy mains handcannons because everything else is near on useless unless your on a range map. No special at the start of trials...absolute load of balls!! Pls for the love of god bungie sort this sh*t out!!
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Edited by kendallhollo2012: 5/3/2017 4:45:13 PMI don't understand how they are going to sell Destiny 2 when Destiny 1 went from being a badass game to complete garbage. I will play the destiny 2 beta, but I just don't think I can see myself getting excited over a game that will go through cycles of nerfs and nerfs until there is nothing to be excited for. The weapons brought me to Destiny and proper weapon balancing is the only way to bring me back!!
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The down fall of pvp was trials of osiris and streamers.
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2 RepliesEdited by Orpheus49: 4/23/2017 8:29:41 PMA much more bombastic version of my mega thread. Admirable However your thread also talks about the history of bullshit. Outstanding You have my bump Edit: you are probably the smartest 15 year old in the community if you where able to create a post disecting the problem of destiny so well, while also making it express our frustration The video, is prefect, because it shoes frustration, but demonstrates thpical thought in the mind of a player while playing the game. Double bump
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Edited by Stari: 4/23/2017 4:00:53 PMFor me it's 3 years the same bull**t: My bullets do less damage, then the most enemies bullets do. No matter which weapon i use, the enemy's weapon is always stronger. [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRpU2GF2bPI[/url] (Party Crasher + with Rifled Barrel and Range Finder.)
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2 RepliesEdited by Vesiah Matauss: 4/21/2017 8:03:33 PMDon't like the pvp go play cod. So many complaining from pvp. Just play a pvp focused game like cod and stop ruining it for everyone else with your none stop annoying whining.
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Fortunately experience is subjective ;)
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15 RepliesI hate not having special. Really nothing takes skill anymore, or at least nothing common. I love pulling a special ammo box to fill the LDR I have acquired skill with, only to have some Skating Titan or Flying Warlock come and 4 tap me with a sidearm that they can keep special for. Literally match up against the worst players in existence, but because they can all spam a sidearm and use an easy primary like a Mida or Palindrome, they win. At this point I only play Destiny's PvP to possibly hit a nice clip. I rarely ever enjoy actually just playing the game. I used to love running TLW and a nice sniper with a sword as my loadout and it was fun. Now I use that and there's a sidearm or someone scoped in constantly with an NLB/Icebreaker arouns the damn corner. If Bungie was just lazy about removing special ammo to work on Destiny 2 then so be it. I just don't want Destiny 2 to have to same BS special ammo rule.
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4 RepliesI do agree with some of your points but get over this special ammo moaning. Move on and use a primary. As you know all our stats are available for others to look at. I knew before even checking that your number one weapon in the crucible would be a shotgun and not to my surprise number two was melee.
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Well one point you got totally wrong it's not the nerf crys that BUNGo responds to it is the data If 1 gun vex/thorn/matador etc gets too many kills is when they nerf stuff it's all about the data Now the nerf issue is that they nerf all hand cannons instead of just thorn so all of a sudden guns that were fine before now suck Rinse and repeat for each gun class Until you are forced to use 1 gun which then proceeds to warp the kill ratio again so again a nerf comes along It's this across the board affect that is the issue
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4 RepliesI think we can all agree that Trials of Osiris ruined PvP.
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5 Replies-blam!- this meta with the icebreaker bullshit. if you dont have an icebreaker you lose in trials. period
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1 ReplyEdited by Scorpius XX1: 4/23/2017 8:34:54 AMIncorrect. Primaries aren't being used now, because they have never been used before. These players have been exposed. It's not primaries that are weak, it's the players. Hence the special camp, stick peek and pop playstyles. Nobody is being forced to use anything, they choose to use whatever is going to, in their minds provide the cheapest result they don't have to work for. It's easier to purchase a '' Wormwood '' for a hundred and fifty marks then it is to actually work on and practice one's primary game.
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2 RepliesEdited by oscarthepooch: 4/23/2017 9:35:09 AMPretty much on the mark with your comment about "The Last Word"! Drawbacks and strengths balance out games, not sheer power. In BF4 we had a joke about snipers. That joke was "we have the highest DPS on paper", whereas in practice the time it took to aim a shot would end you before you could even fire at close range. Fast forward to BF1 and so many people complained about sniping being too hard that it isn't just on paper anymore, it's in practice. Crappy metas are the result of weapons having all the strengths and none of the drawbacks.
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2 RepliesThe downfall of pvp is this forum right here with all the whinging and crying that goes on here it's worse than a nursery. Also I would have to say trials contributed a fair bit too.
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9 RepliesEdited by Kone19ps: 4/22/2017 12:36:13 PMThe entire time the bonus damage for last word was there it was bugged. Personally I like this meta. I have the opposite reaction than most. I can freely rush now without it always being 6 shotguns in my face and special is plentiful. 77 wizard is a beast. 6v6 plays awesome right now. Trials can rot for all I care
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Edited by Montrose: 4/23/2017 12:28:01 PMNo and yes
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Hopefully, Bungie did some retooling of the PvP for the sequel, because as-is, it isn't working.
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They tried this once before no speaical ammo at the start everyone complain and it got changed and now it's back again bungie must be insane to think people will like it this time.
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19 RepliesWhile I agree primary's could use some love. Your approach fixes nothing. Making all exotics out preform legendary counterparts just means all you will see is souros (still remember y1 every match all anyone used in my MM pool), hawkmoon, and one of the pulse and scout. A exotic meta. Few complained on special due to the rule of 2-4 primary's. just because you are using a exotic does not mean you should have a increased chance of winning a gun fight. Return of special ammo will just revert back to the old meta (snipers and shotguns). No one wants this. Quick scoping needs to end. Period. RNG gun play needs to end. Lag needs to end. MM needs fixing. Trials needs to be removed or severely reworked. The above needs to be addressed before any more nurf/buff patches are even considered. PVP just does not fit well in this game type. There is just to much to ever get balance. PVP is taking to much work to bandaid fix it. It's taking away from the PVE aspect. Kills the experience. Less time need to be spent on PVP and more on PVE.
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7 RepliesI disagree completely with the premise that the changes to special ammo, as well as time to kill increases have lowered the skill gap. Almost any legitimate high-level player will tell you that the recent changes have increased the skill gap. Losing special ammunition on death provides a significant reward for surviving engagements, and punishes those who do not. Rewarding good plays and punishing bad plays, is the epitome of skill gap. The question should not be whether not we should be listening to bad players, but instead whether or not punishing them is the right choice. Consider that over 80% of the population that plays the game has around a .7 to .9 K/D It's prideful to assume that an increase in skill gap is synonymous with good game play, or being beneficial for the majority player base. It's like the whole community is trying to speak for the top tier players in the game. However, when you go to the horses mouth, you often times learn that these players are the most vocal in supporting gameplay changes like nerfs. Personally I'm enjoying the crucible, but I acknowledge that others are not. I approach the game understanding that there are seasonal changes that I'm going to have to adapt to. Any player who wishes to continue playing the crucible should do the same.
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2 RepliesHouse of wolves was much more balanced than taken king. Even with the autos sucking lmao
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This game has been out 3 years and the PVP has gotten worse each year. What makes anyone think Bungie 1) cares 2) knows how to fix it. If anyone thinks Destiny 2 will be any different you"re fooling yourself.
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1 ReplyEdited by Mine_saw: 4/22/2017 9:50:35 PMI read and liked everything untill you said nerf shotguns and buff snipers
