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Edited by Paladin Maar : 12/11/2016 4:07:58 AM
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Destiny's PvP Desperately Needs More Weapon Diversity. Nerfs are Not Always the Answer.

Greetings Bungie, friendly Bladedancer here, I wanted to bring up some more concerns as well as to anyone reading. I think this is something that those of us who frequent PvP know for the most part. But Destiny at the point it is right now has virtually little weapon diversity. I hop into a match right now and all I see on 90% of people is a Clever Dragon and Matador 64. I myself run First Curse and a Thesan FR4 but my point is, it's become bland. Going against the same weapons over and over and over again, makes the game boring and unenjoyable. Not to mention, the current meta is hard on others as well. My boyfriend who has played the game since Alpha decided to hop back in Crucible for a bit to have some fun and get his Thorn quest done. We found nothing but shotguns around every corner and he told me after that match he was about ready to quit the game. He didn't understand how that was supposed to be enjoyable or fun after waiting 5mins for matchmaking only to get streamrolled. I had nothing to say to him, I didn't have fun either and that's what I thought this was supposed to be about. Fun. Sure I can try hard when I want but I don't want to do it every single time I decided to play Crucible. And I know I'm not the only one. My point is, the answer is not more nerfs. We need buffs and re-buffs. We need weapons that have been nerfed in the past to be brought back, such as Doctrine, Thorn, Last Word, Hawkmoon, MIDA, and so forth. I would think the devs would understand that after 3 years of Destiny being around that nerfing weapons doesn't really fix issues. In fact it makes them worse. A gun is nerfed, so people will find the next great thing they can use and the cycle keeps going, a new meta is created, people complain, a new nerf comes out, and it keeps going and going. The solution? Make more weapons viable in Crucible. Make it so that instead of having one set of guns that everyone uses, make multiple guns that are good. Make multiple armor sets that can be used. Re-buff old guns like the Last Word, Doctrine, etc. Make more archetypes of guns viable in the first place. The Clever Dragon isn't over powered in the least sense, it's just the fact it's so easily available in the game and people are going to use what works. And that's the other issue the loot pool. It's just like the 1000 Yard Stare back in TTK. I was only so popular because it was a gun that was so easily available, same story with the Dragon now. Destiny is notorious for it's endless grind and hard to obtain loot. So people who are tired of the grind, find a good weapon that's practically given out, of course they're going to use it. So here's another solution, making more good weapons available to people. So people aren't left with one option. Make it so the meta is more diverse. Now about that Matador. No I don't believe shotguns need a nerf. I've tried using one multiple times and I'm aweful at it, not anyone can pick it up. Any weapon in the game requires some degree of skill to use. But to fix this whole riff raff about shotguns? I believe making appropriate weapons to counter each other would be a good start. For instance Thorn now has an artifact that can counter it, so why was Thorn nerfed yet again? To prevent another "year I" from happening? We need those weapons with notorious reputations to come back. I'd rather Thorn, Dragon, Doctrine, Last Word, Universal, Hawkmoon be in the meta together as a whole rather than just Dragon and Matador. A pre nerfed Last Word can easily take down rushing shot gunners (it still can but no as good as it used to). Or counter a rushing shotgunner with a Universal, or finish them off by Doctrine. There are so many solutions to help balance the current meta by not nerfing something but giving it something else it can't work well against. And if shotgunners are constantly countered maybe they'll switch to something else to try because it's no longer a sure fire way to win. And speaking of artifacts. Just a thought. What if we had armor that provided resistance to certain gun types? Shotguns, scouts, etc? On a side note, also increase the flinch on low rate of fire scout rifles. I shouldn't be nailing someone in the head with a Jade Rabbit and they have an auto rifle or in this case Clever Dragon, mow me down as if I wasn't even hitting them. I hope this advice helps. Please make our game more enjoyable. Because right now it's nothing but a sweat fest almost every match. Thank you, Sorvel_64

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  • Bro sorry for my bad english And its not against You alone , but this game really has a normal balance of weapons And You can fight with hand canon , pulse , scout and autorifle if You have THE map for it , Shotgun And sniper are balanced good And i play both of them , fusion rifle is op if You know how to use so why THE endless complain About weapons nerfing , try to ask for a buff if a weapon is to weak or wait for new weapons , i see alot of friends leave destiny because they are not THE best in pvp and when they finally have a weapon where they learn to shoot with it get a nerf , You make them feel more bad , And finally You only have pro players in pvp who beat You with all weapons , is that what You want , You forget that You also need THE other 99 procent who play this game to feel good And not feel good if they need a pro to Carry them , if You play trails now You see more And more good teams And all THE fun players dont wanna play because they never get flawless and are lucky if they win a match , I play this game for a long time now And can see this going THE wrong way , i was a cod player before i started destiny and look how that game is destroyed over THE last years . Its a game for all people And whey make such a big deal to give them a weapon where also the normal And bad players (for sure most of THE players ) can make a kill with . There is alot more i want to say but my english is to bad And it cost me alot of time but i hope people understand what i try to say .

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    • It's not that weapons are unusable, it's that's people are unwilling to learn how to use guns besides the meta. I myself use a sidearm.

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      • Nerfs = a reduction in content. The idiots who defend nerfing shit over demanding new content is why i cant play this game. So many idiots in the community they all think reducing content is the smartest idea they ever came up with. I got one you 5 year old logic using tards can try, get good. Maybe if you stopped dieing to the same stupid shit time and time again you wouldnt think that shit was o.p. but nah... Its the gun.

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      • The meta before this one was the best Doctrine Grasp Hawksaw Mida Eysluna High range and power shotty Or high impact sniper NOW Clever Dragon Shotty

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        • Don't touch clever dragon it's the only weapon that has a chance to take out shotguns. All I get killed by is shotguns from insane distances. You nerf clever dragon and pvp is garbage because of ridiculous shotgun range.

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          • Edited by SanguisDivinus: 12/11/2016 8:26:47 PM
            I typically run my extremophile auto rifle with HCR, Rodeo and Counter Balance. For an auto rifle of it's archetype it's very universal for a lot of PvP situations. I combine this with my braced frame, hot swap, and rangefinder FWC "the vacancy" fusion rifle. I have a jolly time out playing people with the load out. Pisses off my CD friends in private matches too. 😂

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            • Edited by RavenousLD3341: 12/11/2016 4:33:01 AM
              Essentally this is whay we have. 3 auto rifles 4 pulse rifles 5 or 6 if you include Hakke 3 hand cannons 3-4 scout rifles 3-4 shotguns 3-4 snipers 4? Fusion rifles 2-3 sidearms 3-4 HMGs Effectively 1 rocket launcher and 1 sword All of these names, rarity levels, vendor stuff, everything that is and will come is right here.

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              • Edited by Eucadia: 12/11/2016 4:44:50 PM
                The whole "buffing over nerfing" mindset has been going on for over a year now (around the time TTK came out), and even though buffing all weapons would be the ideal thing to do, it's not gonna happen. Bungie has shown multiple times that they don't know how to properly buff weapons anymore. Take the famous 0.04% impact buff for auto rifles as an example lmao, or the fact that they nerfed the stability on fusion rifles on the December 2015 update, when the patch notes said otherwise (it would get buffed). By the time Bungie grasps the "true" idea of what it means to buff weapons, Destiny 2 will be released anyways. Addressing the Clever Dragon... No, it's not supposed to be the "standard" of all primary weapons when it has the fastest TTK, great effective range, and the added bonus of having HCR (not to mention being able to combine it with counterbalance). It's not that all the other primaries suck and the CD is "normal", the CD simply has too many features that make other primaries look like they suck. Removing HCR would be enough to balance things out (in the same way old weapons within the same archetype i.e. Grasp of Malok or Praedyth's Timepiece in Y1 were balanced because they didn't have HCR).

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              • I've been saying this for what seems like ages now, I only hope we can be heard soon cause pvp just isn't fun

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              • Bladedancer? *In rushes Cozmo* did someone say bladedancer? xD

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                • Scout rifle flinch needs to be significantly reduced, maybe by having flinch determined by the distance a bullet travels between point of fire and point of impact similar to damage falloff. That's really all they need to be competitive.

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                • Nerfs are the major reason why only a few select weapons are being used right now. Sorry but WRONG answer.

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                  • Agreed. I honestly have no idea why they decided to nerf snipers. They felt good and very few people could use them at a close range. Shotguns were 100% viable and people who actually liked using them did so. Then the nerf came around and what do you know; snipers are twice as hard to use and shotguns are dominant. I honestly haven't touched Destiny in a month because I hate the shotgun play style so much. Bungie's map design post House of Wolves doesn't help anything either. Most of the maps only offer one or two spots (that are super easy to get behind with a shotgun) where sniping was viable to begin with. Now they're straight up unusable outside of First Light, Bastion, and some other longer ranged maps. I'll honestly just be stuck waiting for Destiny 2, because they've been making poorer and poorer decisions when it comes to weapon balancing in my opinion. They'll occasionally fix their -blam!-ups, but will then screw up in a different way not long after. I'd just rather go play games like Titanfall and BF1 where it actually feels good to play, and not like I'm constantly fighting the developer to do well in a match because of my preferred play style

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                    • You're beyond stupid. We need nerfs, buffs AND counters.

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                      • Correction - nerfs are not [i]always[/i] the answer. Imagine the weapon pool as a race between cars. If you enter the race with a car that has a faulty engine (i.e. a sub-par weapon) and come dead last, you don't begrudge the other racers for having functioning cars, do you? You try to get your car fixed (buffed) so that it can compete. On the other hand, if you and others enter the race with a normal car but one person fits a supercharger to their engine - causing them to win the race by a mile - you'd ask that their car be brought in line with the rest (nerfed) so that there isn't such an imbalance. The weapon "balance" as things stand are more like the second example. It's not that a few weapons are doing acceptably well and everything else is bad, it's that most weapons are good but a few make PvP largely trivial if the opponent isn't using the same thing.

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                        • If all weapons had the same Time To Kill at their preferred range, this would no longer be an issue.

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                          • Edited by JungleofTaxemes: 12/10/2016 2:37:38 PM
                            For anyone who thinks because the grasp/CD is better than other primaries and the way to deal with that is a range or other nerf: If hawksaw 3 bursted again more consistently, if HCs were a bit more accurate, and autos were actually a threat up close, the grasp would become much harder to use and have a smaller effective niche. It is used now because it's an easy 4-5 burst kill with an occasional .8s TTK with the rare 3 burst, as well as being able to fight at a good range so you don't feel completely useless. Other guns have optimal TTKs that are faster than the practical TTK of the grasp (note this difference). If guns either got better optimal TTKs (autos) or some guns went back to when they were good but not OP (i.e unchanged optimal TTK but can hit it more often) we would have a functional primary meta again. The grasp type works well against people sliding/skating, special, movement and supers, but it doesn't insta melt people. It is what a primary in this game should be- effective at most ranges as long as you're not getting shot back at, has a niche it shines in (people who don't know what a primary is get countered hard by a grasp), and stands a chance against other stuff in the sandbox. ALL primaries should be like the grasp. Its optimal TTK isn't even that fast relative to Destiny's movement speed. If autos got their crit multiplier back with a little bodyshot nerf for doctrine they would have .8s TTKs up close if you could crit, and wouldn't be doo doo when trying to use at range as long as your shot was on point. All primaries need to be somewhat effective outside their intended range. Less good and much harder to use, but not useless. If autos got buffed HCs could get accuracy back without ending up with a HC meta. All of this would make special users have to actually think about when to use a special over a primary.

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                            • You are talking about PvP. It doesn't matter how Bungie can fix this, player will find new Meta and will use the most "OP" gun. Bungie can't fix players.

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                              • Right so I just want to point out that technically, there is weapon diversity, it's just that some guns are better than others so people naturally gravitate to those weapons

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                                • I COMPLETELY agree with you. Weapon diversity is super cool to see in a match. And I love it. I'm one of those Voidwalker main Warlocks who LOVE to have a nearly FULL weapons vault and takes some weapons here and there from it to try it out again. It's super fun, trying out new weapons. It really boosts your skill on using a variety of weapons and their archetypes as well. But you know what doesn't boost your skill? Using the same Clever Dragon all the time. Try out a new weapon sometime, or git gud. Cuz weapon diversity is just the thing Destiny multiplayer needs that can fix nearly EVERY balance problem

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                                  • Bump. Although I don't want to see yr 1 thorn again, bungie nerfing the gun twice was not needed. (three if you count ghost bullets)

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                                    • Nice prose 👍🏻

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                                    • [quote]Greetings Bungie, friendly Bladedancer here, I wanted to bring up some more concerns as well as to anyone reading. I think this is something that those of us who frequent PvP know for the most part. But Destiny at the point it is right now has virtually little weapon diversity. I hop into a match right now and all I see on 90% of people is a Clever Dragon and Matador 64. I myself run First Curse and a Thesan FR4 but my point is, it's become bland. Going against the same weapons over and over and over again, makes the game boring and unenjoyable. Not to mention, the current meta is hard on others as well. My boyfriend who has played the game since Alpha decided to hop back in Crucible for a bit to have some fun and get his Thorn quest done. We found nothing but shotguns around every corner and he told me after that match he was about ready to quit the game. He didn't understand how that was supposed to be enjoyable or fun after waiting 5mins for matchmaking only to get streamrolled. I had nothing to say to him, I didn't have fun either and that's what I thought this was supposed to be about. Fun. Sure I can try hard when I want but I don't want to do it every single time I decided to play Crucible. And I know I'm not the only one. My point is, the answer is not more nerfs. We need buffs and re-buffs. We need weapons that have been nerfed in the past to be brought back, such as Doctrine, Thorn, Last Word, Hawkmoon, MIDA, and so forth. I would think the devs would understand that after 3 years of Destiny being around that nerfing weapons doesn't really fix issues. In fact it makes them worse. A gun is nerfed, so people will find the next great thing they can use and the cycle keeps going, a new meta is created, people complain, a new nerf comes out, and it keeps going and going. The solution? Make more weapons viable in Crucible. Make it so that instead of having one set of guns that everyone uses, make multiple guns that are good. Make multiple armor sets that can be used. Re-buff old guns like the Last Word, Doctrine, etc. Make more archetypes of guns viable in the first place. The Clever Dragon isn't over powered in the least sense, it's just the fact it's so easily available in the game and people are going to use what works. And that's the other issue the loot pool. It's just like the 1000 Yard Stare back in TTK. I was only so popular because it was a gun that was so easily available, same story with the Dragon now. Destiny is notorious for it's endless grind and hard to obtain loot. So people who are tired of the grind, find a good weapon that's practically given out, of course they're going to use it. So here's another solution, making more good weapons available to people. So people aren't left with one option. Make it so the meta is more diverse. Now about that Matador. No I don't believe shotguns need a nerf. I've tried using one multiple times and I'm aweful at it, not anyone can pick it up. Any weapon in the game requires some degree of skill to use. But to fix this whole riff raff about shotguns? I believe making appropriate weapons to counter each other would be a good start. For instance Thorn now has an artifact that can counter it, so why was Thorn nerfed yet again? To prevent another "year I" from happening? We need those weapons with notorious reputations to come back. I'd rather Thorn, Dragon, Doctrine, Last Word, Universal, Hawkmoon be in the meta together as a whole rather than just Dragon and Matador. A pre nerfed Last Word can easily take down rushing shot gunners (it still can but no as good as it used to). Or counter a rushing shotgunner with a Universal, or finish them off by Doctrine. There are so many solutions to help balance the current meta by not nerfing something but giving it something else it can't work well against. And if shotgunners are constantly countered maybe they'll switch to something else to try because it's no longer a sure fire way to win. And speaking of artifacts. Just a thought. What if we had armor that provided resistance to certain gun types? Shotguns, scouts, etc? On a side note, also increase the flinch on low rate of fire scout rifles. I shouldn't be nailing someone in the head with a Jade Rabbit and they have an auto rifle or in this case Clever Dragon, mow me down as if I wasn't even hitting them. I hope this advice helps. Please make our game more enjoyable. Because right now it's nothing but a sweat fest almost every match. Thank you, Sorvel_64[/quote] 10/10

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                                    • Bump Bump Buuummmppp

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