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Edited by Killlerschaf: 5/26/2016 1:24:40 AM
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If you seriously believe that anyone in his right mind was advocating for the complete removal of SBMM, I think that you didn't understand the issue at hand. Also let's be honest: Destiny is laggy, unbalanced, has rotating meta games, doesn't have a league or ladder system, doesn't have private matches, doesn't use dedicated servers with a form of region lock, and it definitely isn't even close of becoming a legit esport in its current form. Given that infrastructure, a focus on SBMM simply doesn't make sense. Now let's look at Halo: Uses dedicated servers, is balanced, has custom matches, has social/ranked playlists, doesn't have a rotating meta, is a legit esport for years already and uses a league/ladder system. For Halo, SBMM makes perfect sense, because it has the infrastructure to support it, and was build from the ground up for competitive play. On top of that, Destiny doesn't even reward playing good. You can have a 20.0 KD, but the same chance for loot like the guy with a 0.05 KD. Since there is no ladder system, it's also not like you could actually brag in game about your gold/plat/diamond status. Because of the stated goal of a 50/50 W/L preservation, you might as well not even try to win. And if you aren't playing with a fireteam, you're basically doomed anyhow, but if you play with a fireteam of equally skilled players, you're pubstomping 3s/6s. The solution is pretty simple: Let's all accept that Destiny is a laggy casual game, and let's give such a game the matchmaking it needs (which is not the one Halo is using).
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  • See this guy gets it, I'd also like to add Sbmm doesn't work anyways, sorry. How do you calculate the skill of a fireteam? What if friends of different skill levels play together? What about people who are terrible alone but perform much better as a team? These scenarios frequently lead to terrible "matches" where one team has a significant advantage over the other for whatever reason.

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  • [quote]If you seriously believe that anyone in his right mind was advocating for the complete removal of SBMM, I think that you didn't understand the issue at hand. Also let's be honest: Destiny is laggy, unbalanced, has rotating meta games, doesn't have a league or ladder system, doesn't have private matches, doesn't use dedicated servers with a form of region lock, and it definitely isn't even close of becoming a legit esport in its current form. Given that infrastructure, a focus on SBMM simply doesn't make sense. Now let's look at Halo: Uses dedicated servers, is balanced, has custom matches, has social/ranked playlists, doesn't have a rotating meta, is a legit esport for years already and uses a league/ladder system. For Halo, SBMM makes perfect sense, because it has the infrastructure to support it, and was build from the ground up for competitive play. On top of that, Destiny doesn't even reward playing good. You can have a 20.0 KD, but the same chance for loot like the guy with a 0.05 KD. Since there is no ladder system, it's also not like you could actually brag in game about your gold/plat/diamond status. Because of the stated goal of a 50/50 W/L preservation, you might as well not even try to win. And if you aren't playing with a fireteam, you're basically doomed anyhow, but if you play with a fireteam of equally skilled players, you're pubstomping 3s/6s. The solution is pretty simple: Let's all accept that Destiny is a laggy casual game, and let's give such a game the matchmaking it needs (which is not the one Halo is using).[/quote] Stop making sense. Mtashed is trying to be a shill in here. Geeez

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  • Edited by Killlerschaf: 5/26/2016 3:50:28 AM
    I don't mind your agreement :) But why call him a shill? He isn't exactly the most critical of the game all of the time, but I'd rather attribute his post to the false understanding of the top 5% players, that Destiny is actually a competitive game. Competitive games absolutely need strict SBMM. Games like Halo. DOTA. Counter Strike. But a casual game? What's the point of employing strict SBMM? Bungie wants the benefits of SBMM, without providing the needed infrastructure. It's like selling electro cars in a country without any possibility to charge your car. The absolute minimum requirements for stricter SBMM are a ladder system, a balanced game (a god roll can substitute skill, and Bungie has a 50% W/L preservation (which defeats the purpose of SBMM, because SBMM in a ladder system would naturally bring you to a 1.0 KD and 50% W/L by itself, if you play enough games. At that point you stagnate in the ladder, and your skill level has accurately been determined, relative to other players)) and the assurance of good connections (since lag distorts skill levels. If have 120ms to the host, I'll be at a disadvantage. If we both connect with 50ms to a dedicated server, nobody has an advantage). I am fully aware that Bungie will use intern skill brackets (a league/ladder system), but they need to be visually available to the player and his friends/opponents. The players need to know about their current skill level and where they currently rank in the ladder. This is a simple matter of prestige AND knowing how good you truly are. Sorry for all the ().

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  • [quote] But a casual game? What's the point of employing strict SBMM?[/quote] First off, Bungie has stated that skill considerations are currently loose as they've ever been. The purpose of having then at all is to create an environment where the largest number of players possible have a chance to win and find success. Which is exactly what a 50% win/loss ratio for the community will do. If a group of players feel they never have a chance to win, they'll just stop playing, and that's bad for the entire community. [quote] Bungie has a 50% W/L preservation (which defeats the purpose of SBMM, because SBMM in a ladder system would naturally bring you to a 1.0 KD and 50% W/L by itself, if you play enough games. At that point you stagnate in the ladder, and your skill level has accurately been determined, relative to other players)) [/quote] Can't you see that this means that Destiny has a skill rating ladder? It's just invisible to the player. If you win a lot of games the system will find you more difficult opponents until you begin to lose and your records even out. That is [i]exactly[/i] how a skill ladder functions. Now, why is it hidden from the players? Likely in an attempt to prevent griefing and gaming of the system. Bungie has had over a decade of matchmaking experience. They essentially invented the current party-based matchmaking system that practically every console fps now uses, and in every halo game the social playlists were [i]defacto[/i] ranked just like the ranked lists, but player ranks were hidden so people wouldn't obsess over success. Even in those social playlists there were common instances of players intentionally losing large numbers of matches to lower their trueskill score so that they could face weaker opponents and stomp. And in the ranked lists players employed all manner of exploits to gain an advantage, like intentionally manipulating the network connection to gain host, then droping opponents from the game or lagging them out. Additionally, if you payed attention over the various Halo releases you'd notice Bungie included less and less obvious ranking info even in their ranked playlists. Halo 2 had an actual leaderboard. Within which the highest ranked were almost exclusively cheaters. Bungie removed the leaderboards from future games and went to a level system thereby obfuscating your actual trueskill ladder position. All of this because some people will do whatever they can to cheat to feel better about their virtual ranking. Skill consideration in matchmaking benefits the [i]overwhelming majority[/i] of players. Those that can't see that simply don't understand the problem. Balance issues are largely beside the point. And personally, I think private matches along with an in-game group finder, would go a long way to solving the "why is everyone trying so hard" complaints.

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  • [quote]I don't mind your agreement :) But why call him a shill? He isn't exactly the most critical of the game all of the time, but I'd rather attribute his post to the false understanding of the top 5% players, that Destiny is actually a competitive game. Competitive games absolutely need strict SBMM. Games like Halo. DOTA. Counter Strike. But a casual game? What's the point of employing strict SBMM? Bungie wants the benefits of SBMM, without providing the needed infrastructure. It's like selling electro cars in a country without any possibility to charge your car. The absolute minimum requirements for stricter SBMM are a ladder system, a balanced game (as long as a god roll can substitute skill, and as long as Bungie has a 50% W/L preservation (which defeats the purpose of SBMM, because SBMM in a ladder system would naturally bring you to a 1.0 KD and 50% W/L by itself, if you play enough games. At that point you stagnate in the ladder, and your skill level has accurately been determined, relative to other players)) and the assurance of good connections (since lag distorts skill levels. If have 120ms to the host, I'll be at a disadvantage. If we both connect with 50ms to a dedicated server, nobody has an advantage). I am fully aware that Bungie will use intern skill brackets (a league/ladder system), but they need to be visually available to the player and his friends/opponents. The players need to know about their current skill level and where they currently rank in the ladder. This is a simple matter of prestige AND knowing how good you truly are. Sorry for all the ().[/quote] True true. But lets face it they will never have dedicated servers. So they may as well remove SBMM

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  • Not remove. Just obviously putting a preference on connection. But if Destiny 2 doesn't fully use dedicated servers, I'd be pretty confused.

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  • [quote]If you seriously believe that anyone in his right mind was advocating for the complete removal of SBMM, I think that you didn't understand the issue at hand. Also let's be honest: Destiny is laggy, unbalanced, has rotating meta games, doesn't have a league or ladder system, doesn't have private matches, doesn't use dedicated servers with a form of region lock, and it definitely isn't even close of becoming a legit esport in its current form. Given that infrastructure, a focus on SBMM simply doesn't make sense. Now let's look at Halo: Uses dedicated servers, is balanced, has custom matches, has social/ranked playlists, doesn't have a rotating meta, is a legit esport for years already and uses a league/ladder system. For Halo, SBMM makes perfect sense, because it has the infrastructure to support it, and was build from the ground up for competitive play. On top of that, Destiny doesn't even reward playing good. You can have a 20.0 KD, but the same chance for loot like the guy with a 0.05 KD. Since there is no ladder system, it's also not like you could actually brag in game about your gold/plat/diamond status. Because of the stated goal of a 50/50 W/L preservation, you might as well not even try to win. And if you aren't playing with a fireteam, you're basically doomed anyhow, but if you play with a fireteam of equally skilled players, you're pubstomping 3s/6s. The solution is pretty simple: Let's all accept that Destiny is a laggy casual game, and let's give such a game the matchmaking it needs (which is not the one Halo is using).[/quote]

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  • That's a bump, right?^^

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