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Destiny

Discuss all things Destiny.
originally posted in:The Ashen Conflux
Edited by KAGEHOSHI: 1/16/2016 8:37:37 PM
53

Hive Throne Worlds & The 11 Axioms

[b]If victory is truth, then war is argument, and a sword is... logic. [/b] These strange and brutal truths define the higher planes of reality ruled by Hive gods—the throne worlds, also known as ascendant realms. They are universes created by the will and might of gods, beings with sufficient sword logic, as a place for which to be reborn upon death. Ascendant realms have their own laws, or axioms, which govern reality. This makes them distinct from physical reality. I will attempt to describe the eleven axioms governing these realms as the nerdy Ir Anuk once did. [quote]Already you are grown, my daughter, already you are a wizard. Have I been away so long? Now you are Ir Anûk, and Savathûn cackles and rages at your brilliance. [b]You have written eleven axioms describing the ascendant places, our throne world[/b]. You have announced that you will kill one of these axioms, as Akka would kill the truth, and in mantling Akka you will become a God, as I am. (Verse 4:7 — shapes : points)[/quote] An axiom is a truth that is self-evident or well established. I identify and describe them thus: [b]I) SWORD LOGIC[/b] Sword logic, the gaining of power from killing, is the law of the ascendant realm. This applies to everyone within them, and not just those who carry the worms like the Hive do. Killing someone gains you not only the sword logic of killing them, but also the sword logic that they have accumulated. This means to kill a god is to become a god. While swords are not necessary to gain sword logic, swords, blades, and other weapons that physically bridge a target to their killer are subject to sword logic—they grow more powerful with each kill. EDIT: To clarify, [b]You don't need to use a sword for sword logic to apply[/b]. sword logic still applies even without the sword, it's just that using a sword makes the sword also grow stronger. [quote]A Shredder or a Boomer is a powerful weapon, but it kills acyclically. You see? It sends out harm and it takes nothing back. The bolt passes away into nothing. A sword, though, a sword is like a bridge, a crossing-point. The sword binds wielder to victim. It binds life to death. And when the binding is done—the sword remembers. When the Boomer's fire has burnt away into axion and neutrino scatter, the sword goes on, hungrier and sharper. [...] remember that the greatest authority here is a blade made keen by eons of use. (Ascendant Sword)[/quote] [quote]You’re a god yourself, now. You’ve consecrated yourself. (Oryx: Defeated)[/quote] [quote]the[b] sword logic, which defined all rules in Oryx’s throne world[/b]. The geometry perplexed them. [...] the Vex ritual-of-better-thoughts manifested a Mind called Quria, Blade Transform. Quria deduced the sword logic. [b]I have to kill everything, Quria resolved. Then I will be powerful.[/b] (Verse 4:9 — open your eye : go into it)[/quote] [b]II) VICTORY DICTATES ONTOLOGY[/b] To win is to be true and real. Conversely, to lose is to be false and not real. [quote]Oryx inhabits a world where power is truth. To win is to be noble, and to be real. (Echo of Oryx)[/quote] *Axiom 1 and 2 explain why killing an axiom (or any truth) makes one into a god. To kill a truth is to become more true yourself through the sword logic, and by killing the highest of truths (the axioms) thus makes you the highest of beings. [b]III) THE THRONE WORLD IS THE GOD-MIND[/b] A throne world is an extension of the mind and will of the god that creates it. This is why Hive gods can come back if they are killed; their minds (throne worlds) recreate them into being, and from there they can reenter physical reality. A god is the strongest thing inside it's throne world because it's an extension of it's own mind, but if that god is killed and surpassed in sword logic, it makes sense that the world would recognize the god's killer as it's new god, since it is the strongest thing in the throne world. Because it is the extension of the mind of a god, it makes sense that it requires a god to continue existing, or otherwise, what is it an extension of? It therefore follows from the third axiom that the architecture of these places is dependent on a god. [quote]my mind is now a cosmos of its own. (Verse 3:3 — fire without fuel)[/quote] [quote]That its true power resides in a netherworld forged by his will. We must pass through a keyhole between realities, navigate the seething midnight of Crota's [b]world-mind[/b]. (Crota's End)[/quote] [quote]There must be a strongest one. It is the architecture of these spaces. (King's Fall)[/quote] *Axiom 2 and 3 combine to explain why Hive gods stay dead when killed in their own throne worlds. To be defined as false in an extension of one's mind forces one to accept that one's existence is false, and the extension of your mind (the throne world) will no recreate you. It's like being forcibly convinced of an argument, so the power of your mind no longer accepts your existence. I find this super interesting. [b]IV) HIGH CONTEMPT[/b] The ascendant realms "look down" on physical reality, perhaps meaning that these realms are superior and more real and complete. [quote]I write to you from a place of high contempt. No no no, don’t be offended, don’t be so superficial — it’s in the architecture of these spaces. They look down on you. (Echo of Oryx)[/quote] [b]V) CONSERVATION OF PHYSICAL LAWS[/b] Objects and beings from the physical universe bring with them the physical laws necessary for their existence. This must be an implied rule because it is the laws of our universe that makes it so that matter, life, and everything else can form and exist as they currently do, and yet we can exist in the throne worlds which have completely different laws. If another universe has different laws while somehow having our matter retain form and function, it must therefore allow objects from our universe to import their own laws for those objects to not fall apart. [b]VI) ASCENDANT GEOMETRY[/b] Abstract concepts have no physical realness or quiddity, but Hive seem to be able to make abstract concepts as real as physical objects when inside the ascendant realm. This is the principles behind deathsongs, and oversouls; death is a shape which can be invoked as a weapon because of the unique properties of these worlds. Like death, the abstract concept, or "shape," of lies can be chewed and converted into weapons like poisons by a Hive wizard. death is just a word, isn't it? A catch-all term for the failure to go on, nothing spiritual, nothing with its own quiddity. We all died once, and it did not prove insurmountable. [quote]But what if what if what if, shhh listen, what if death were reified, described in its totality, made autonomous and universal, separate from any context or condition? What if She could invoke the ending of anything? (Ir Yût, the Deathsinger)[/quote] [quote]Gather up the Lie Shapes Neither eat nor mock them, as you crave Instead, learn to chew them into poisons (Balwûr)[/quote] *I can't figure out anymore axioms others than the last, but given how the Hive love the color green, [i]there's probably an axiom somewhere which states that green is the best color[/i]. I'm jumping straight to the last one now: [b]XI) THE LAST TRUE SHAPE[/b] The Last True shape, also known as the Darkness is the ultimate truth, the final axiom, and thus the most real and powerful force in the ascendant realm. [quote]I am Oryx, Lord of Shapes, Carver of Tablets Behold my performance of the Last True Shape The final axiom. (Echo of Oryx)[/quote] [quote]Then Auryx said, “Now I may speak to the Deep, the beautiful final shape. (Verse 3:8 — King of Shapes)[/quote] [quote]the Darkness-which-is-the-Deep. (Verse 5:7 — Forever And A Blade)[/quote] If you can deduce more axioms, feel free to post them in the comments below. [b]For more theories by me, I refer you to the [url=https://www.bungie.net/en/Forum/Post/183288968/0/0]Collected Treatises of The Warlock KAGEHOSHI[/url].[/b]

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  • Have you discussed anything about Xivu Arath's throne world? Crota, Oryx, and possibly Savathun's all seem to be similar pocket universes. Xivu Arath's throne world seems by far the most abstract and difficult to conceptualize. Also, a death in another being's throne world constitutes a permanent death correct? This seems to be another somewhat difficult key fact to nail down. It seems like there's a middle ground 'death'. - It's safe to assume many Ascendant hive have throne worlds. But Oryx's daughters were killed in Oryx's throne world, not their own. And yet they seemingly died permanent deaths. I - I'll also mention when Oryx killed Savathun and Xivu Arath in his throne world to gain the sword logic of killing them to overpower the Ecumene. It is mentioned they died permanent deaths, but then came back as well.

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    • Is it possible that one of the axioms has to do something with the ownership of the throne world. Along the lines of the strongest being inhabiting a throne world is the king of that particular realm. Tell me what you think

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      • I was wondering it says when oryx spoke to Ir Anuk that if she defied one of the axioms she would become a god like Oryx. If it meant like Oryx then she would gain her own throne world as an extension of her mind. Now if u could defy a truth of a throne world, by sword logic, the victor therefore becomes truth, something Oryx wasn't. Now in one of the axioms, I think 4, deathsongs fall under it because it is an abstract concept turned into reality, ex. Death into a song. Now Toland we know wanders throughout all the throne worlds of the hive, specifically he helped us with Oryx's and is still mapping out the worlds of other hive. Now when Eris went into the pit, Toland conversed with Ir Yut and he listened to her song. Toland's body perished but yet is mind/spirit still remained and navigates the throne worlds. My question is that since Toland heard the deathsong, a total and perfect manifestation of death, then no part of him should survive. Yet part of him lives and travels IN BETWEEN the throne worlds. To me this seems like conformation that Toland was able to halfway defy an axiom, allowing him to become halfway a hive God or half-truth. A hive God has their own world, but what if Toland, only being halfway, is only able to travel in between worlds and unable to have his own. His body perished but his thirst of knowledge was strong enough to remain and defy the deathsong, and know his consciousness has gained partial ascendency allowing him to be near throne worlds at the cost of not having his own. I know it's long and probably just a wishful theory but I'm curious about what u think?

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      • Kagehoshi I had a few questions that I was wondering if you could answer. 1.) since we have killed 2 gods and have became the strongest beings in the throne world does that mean that we have two throne worlds? Or because we didn't take their places do the worlds no longer exist? 2). Does sword logic stay relevant after leaving the ascendant realm, or are we back to our normal power after returning?

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        • I would also be surprised if there was no underlying axioms in the leviathan(book of sorrow)

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        • If you read the scream(book of sorrow), maybe one of the axioms could be about how gods must feed there worms with killing and victories in battle or else they will devour them

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          • What if axioms 7-10 have been destroyed or defeated... As u said that to defeat an axiom is to become the highest of beings

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            • I really like reading your posts btw. I would like to offer my thoughts on some of the axioms you have presented. Axiom I. I believe that, as you have mentioned, although you do not necessarily need to kill using a sword or other blade that when you do it represents a more "powerful" result for the killer. This is a result of the direct connection between the killer and the "killee". This begs the question of whether or not anyone has killed Oryx using a sword? I mean by actually swinging the sword as the death blow, not by using an energy projection of some kind to finish him. I would interested to know/see as it would not surprise me if there was an increase in damage for the sword (past the 320 cap) or in the light level of the Guardian who made the death blow, as this would fit into the Axiom as it has been described, imo. In relation to your axiom V. I believe that when something/someone from the physical realm enters the Ascendant realm that they are more of a projection of themselves. If our understanding of the throne worlds is correct and they are a "mental" projection of the "Gods" then this makes the realm(s) realities of thought. Pardon my reference but this makes them almost like "The Matrix". So when guardians cross over they are projecting their thought(s) of themselves into the Throne World which would come with the same limitations as they are used to having in the physical world, as they are not capable of "freeing their minds" in the Ascendant Realm(s). Just some thoughts, let me know what you think. I am a hunter by trade but definitely have thoughts of understanding more about the world rather than just exploring it.

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              • Niceee

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              • [b]Kagehoshi[/b] is the only [i]true[/i] Warlock I've ever seen so far on these forums..

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              • [b][i]what is love?![/i][/b]

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              • This is why we have Warlocks.

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              • Bump

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              • Bump

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              • Great post - super interesting!

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              • Have you explored the possibility that these axioms run parallel/are realities or dimensions. In other words, some other form of the twelve dimensions (we only know up to time: it is quite possible that the Hive know more) or differing realities/existences (basic theories state that there are likely 10 realities [I can't remember where this is written]- could the Hive have found one more). Additionally: original concepts of Destiny were said to have a structure related to Dante's Level's of Heaven (each planet was designed to be a different level). Whether this was scrapped, or lost in translation, we may never know. It stands to reason that these axioms could follow the Levels of Hell also contained within the Divine Comedy. Is there any possible correlation?

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                • And also what about the strict proof eternal

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                  • Edited by m3ga1337 scarab: 1/24/2016 10:03:38 PM
                    Could the flavor text of the solar sword that they waver between the light and the dark have to do with anything

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                  • Great work! It's nice to see people make lore more accessible.

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                  • I luv duh citations

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                  • Another great post, I love reading lore, brings more depth into my understandings.

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                  • Good job typing this up. You need to get outside more.

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                    • Thoughts regarding Axiom III - throne world / God-mind: - since the throne world is an extension of the mind and will of the god that creates it, the Hive are able to re-create themselves into being and re-enter physical reality. - the ghosts were created by the Traveler, considered a god by some, and when the guardians are killed, we are re-created into being and re-enter physical reality. Would this meet the definition of throne world as described by the Hive Axiom or truths? In essence, the Ghost can be considered an extension of a god-mind, or a Throne World, and we become the physical representation of that mind, otherwise as an extension of the Traveler. Once your ghost is destroyed or drained of light, it no longer has a god to continue existing and is no longer an extension of the traveler, thus cannot re-create the physical representation, becoming the guardian's last life. Regarding Axiom I - Sword logic: - as guardians we only kill. If we have a throne world via the sword logic axiom III, then it is logical that we kill so that we gain power through the act of killing. We use the traveler's light as our weapon, and through it we kill so that we gain light experience, which creates motes of light that we use to increase the power of our weapons. If the light acts as our sword, then the light directly grows with each kill as well as ourselves, which are only physical representations of the light. It would follow that the Traveler then also follows the sword logic, which would explain why Oryx wants to destroy it, so she can prove that she is real and true and close to the final shape of the universe (axiom II). - by killing Oryx, we have only followed the same sword logic that Oryx was following, and have only proven that we (and by extension the Traveler) are true and real and Oryx was false and fake. But we used the power of Oryx in her undoing, thus proving her strength and by doing so through the sword logic, and with the weapon made from Oryx, we have also proven that the final shape of the universe is the same that Oryx followed, which is why Oryx said she lives forever - because we become the same as her. [quote]If I am defeated, I know that I will fall to something mighty. Something that craves might, something that loves what I love, which is the Deep, a principle and a power, the versatile, protean need to adapt and endure, to reach out and shape the universe entirely for that purpose, to mutate and redesign and test and iterate so that it can prevail, can seize existence and hold it, certain that this is everything, that there is nothing to life except living. And it has two faces, yet it is one shape. One face is the objective, which is obvious, and the other face is that will to sacrifice things and ideas for a single mission, the mission of becoming the shape, a shape that will not relent, the utter commitment to survival, to draw the right sword and choose where to cut: to allow this hunger to become your weapon. So I will prepare a book, which is a map to a weapon. And my vanquisher will read that book, seeking the weapon, and they will come to understand me, where I have been and where I was going. And then they will take up my weapon, and they will use it, they will use that weapon, which is all that I am. And armed thus with my past, and my future, and my present (which is a weapon, a weapon that takes whatever is available, a weapon bound to malice), they will mantle me, Oryx, the Taken King. They will become me and I will become them, each of us defeating the other, correcting the other, alloying ourselves into one omnipotent philosophy. Thus I will live forever. I’ll make sure. (Darkness: Insight)[/quote] - some believe it is Toland that speaks much of the same: [quote]You fools! You disastrous, bumbling squanderers! It's not right! Who now shall be First Navigator, Lord of Shapes, harrowed god, Taken King? Not you! You might have been Kings and Queens of the Deep! But you have toppled Oryx and you have not replaced him! There must be a strongest one. It is the architecture of these spaces. (King's Fall)[/quote] Of course, many real cultures believe that light and dark are two sides of the same thing, so it makes sense that the Traveler and Darkness are both of the same entity and use the same sword logic towards the same ultimate shape of the universe. Both sides are proving that the strongest entity rules, unless the light differentiates itself through some future cause. To reality, this is just conjecture and loosely interpreted story, that I am in no way an expert in. It just popped into my head while reading the OP and I wanted to get it out.

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                      • You went full anonpig

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                      • One piece of information that might be useful is there is a piece of equipment with the quote "to even exist in their realm is to constantly demand your own existence" might be useful

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                      • Join this uprising clan and conquer your missions together! https://www.bungie.net/en/Clan/Forum/1370062

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