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12/19/2015 4:42:17 PM
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Toland, The Guardian Who Cheated Death?

[i]The following is an amalgamation of bits and pieces of theorycrafting I've done the past few days, some of which I posted in Lore Thursday threads and others I've added on for this more detailed presentation. Feel free to add your own insights after reading[/i]. Toland's name is one of the most speculated of Guardian lore. Feared for his methods of study, his research into the Hive bordered on insanity and became the reason why he was the first Guardian ever to be exiled from the Vanguard and the Last City. But that was only the beginning of his story, a legend that still permeates to this day as we've seen, faced and defeated not one but two Hive gods. [b]Toland, The Thanatonaut?[/b] This is speculation from myself here in believing that at some point before his exile Toland was a member of the Thanatonauts, the only other known order of Warlocks in the Vanguard aside from the more well known Praxic order. Led by a Warlock named Pujari (which is what Hindu priests in real life are called), Thanatonauts are known for sacrificing themselves through death to receive visions into the Darkness before being revived by their ghosts. Pujari's greatest exploit is that he drowned himself in the Shores Of Time once and received a vision of the Black Garden. It's my assumption that Toland followed this philosophy as well, except that he and he alone used it to delve deeper into ways of the Hive. [b]Book(Of Sorrows)Worm[/b] From the Book Of Sorrows, we learn the Hive's own culture greatly embraces death…so to learn of their ways, Toland too had to embrace it. The only way to truly do this is to die. But again, Toland's study of the Hive were mostly done alone, and within the deep crevices of the hollowed out Moon where the Darkness was so strong that at one point the Vanguard quarantined it, the question to ask here is exactly how could Toland fully realize Hive ways of being and survive with only his Light? (NOTE: canonically in Darkness zones a Guardian's ghost can't revive them, it would have to be infused with some light from another Guardian, hence why you have to be revived in Nightfalls and Normal raids and can't be revived in hard raids) I have my own assumptions to this. [b]Toland's Build[/b] Sunsingers are masters of Solar Light, so much so that they can channel it in a burst of Radiance powerful enough to revive them from death itself, restore the Light to them that the Darkness drained. Toland likely used this ability extensively to pull himself from death to the Hive many, many times, surviving onslaughts of attack from the deepest corners of the Hellmouth. And how was he able to channel his Light so readily? A custom crafted weapon designed to string kills near endlessly that restore light energy at a breakneck pace that we all know as Bad Juju. It's "String Of Curses" perk is known well to restore Super energy very quickly. I don't think that's just a design choice. It plays too much in favor of this theory of Toland's methods. [b]Toland, The Ascendant[/b] So, to what end does all this take shape? Well, Eris knew about Ascendance, guiding our Guardian back into Crota's realm to give the means to become Ascendant ourselves a key element into the eventual King's Fall. She learned of this from Toland. My belief, as is the prevailing theory is that Eris is also Ascendant, as is Toland, but Toland is on a greater level. The Book Of Sorrows tells us the throne worlds, alternate dimensions where Ascendant Hive dwell which grant them pseudo immortality in a way similar to how Ghosts grant it to Guardians. The only way to destroy an Ascendant Hive completely is within their throne world, as we've successfully done to Crota and his father Oryx. My belief (and those of many others) is that the result of Toland's studies have resulted in him creating his own throne world, just as an Ascendant Hive or Hive God can. The theory is this, it's been confirmed that Toland was a part of Eris' doomed fireteam, and that he was killed by Ir Yut. To Eris, he's dead like the other members of that ill-fated group, and she believes herself the last survivor. But my belief is that Toland was killed in this realm, but because he's created his own throne world, he's not dead but recovering as an Ascendant would in theirs until he has the strength to return back to the "real world". [b]Head For The Light...[/b] Which leads me to the last theory on Toland, the "beacons of light" that appear in several instances throughout The Taken King, leading you to area where powerful enemies, either Taken Champions or Shades of Oryx, dwell. The most prevalent belief here is that those beacons are in fact Toland himself, communicating indirectly to our Guardian, guiding them through battle. How is it possible, as Ascendant Hive can't do this with each other, you ask? Well, Toland's not a Hive God, he's still a Guardian, and still has to my knowledge, a functioning Ghost. That's the big kicker there. Toland may very well possess both the powers of the Hive Gods AND the powers of a Guardian at a level that makes Eris' fleeting summoning powers look like you fighting through the Cosmo for your old jumpship with a Khvostov. There are other theories revolving around these beacons-perhaps Oryx's power lingering after his physical form is destroyed, or vestiges of the Queen's Harbingers-but the Toland theory is the one that has the most weight because, as I hope I've point out here, there's so much that connects it all together. [b]In Closing...[/b] Toland is a pretty prominent figure in the Destiny lore…we all have a good assumption of this even if you're not a lore seeker, but there are underlying thing surrounding his character that make him potentially a Guardian that may even rival our own in terms of power. He's truly a light in the darkness, whom I hope we encounter directly as some point.

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  • Edited by RagingPheonix00: 12/22/2015 2:44:16 AM
    this is good, but I believe he got turned into a piece of cheese and he is sits next to eris's rock.

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  • I like this

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  • Edited by Patriot121: 12/20/2015 11:41:36 PM
    Toland is dead in a physical sense. It Yut killed him with her Deathsong. His mind/soul still wanders the netherworld where it aids us. Through the Grimoire he basically explains to our guardians how to beat Oryx. He tells us how the Tithe system works and the importance of cutting it off. It's also possible/likely that the existence of the relic in our fight against the daughters and Oryx is only there because of Toland pulling strings in the netherworld. So yes, Toland is dead, but not gone. With how he freaks out following Oryx's death and our refusal to claim his power, it's possible Toland may try to mantle Oryx to fill the vacuum left in the universe.

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    • Edited by LunndonBridge: 12/21/2015 7:51:45 PM
      I doubt he was a sunsinger. More likely a Voidwalker Awoken. This would explain his affinity for hive culture as void and darkness are of the same base element. I believe it is ghost fragment: hellmouth that states he is 'alive' in the ascendent realm. I doubt though he remains a good guy. I think his ultimate goal is to subplant the hive gods and claim the powers of the deep for himself. ...Although your theory about the beacons of light is very intriguing. My biggest annoyance is that our ghost read the journal of toland and we cant. THAT is BS.

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    • Toland,the guardian who used action replay and cheated death.

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      • except he is not a sunsinger...that is Osiris. Toland is a Voidwalker

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        The only memory of Toland I have is the precision auto rifle he left behind...

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        • He made bad juju... Best guardian ever

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          • Toland was a Voidwalker and it hasn't been confirmed he was killed by Ir yut

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          • Well the original "string of curses" perk on bad juju didn't give you any extra super energy. That part was only added after Bungie buffed the weapon, which means that it could not have been used like you said in your theory.

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          • I love Tolands story alwase have......... Probably the reason im playing my warlock again.

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          • I love lore and this is an excellent theory! (I'm a warlock) :)

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          • Surprised anyone still takes the lore in Destiny seriously, after the revelations re the last minute re-write it's more clear than ever how poorly thought through it all is. I love fantasy fiction, perhaps Destiny lore just goes over my head.

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          • I love this lol

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          • Interesting. All I really got from the Grimour was that Toland made friends with Ir Yut and learned from her the song of death. It killed him but, the song's purpose isn't to simply kill but, to make the target one with the fabric of the universe. To transcend realms. Toland is a guardian through and through and so, even though he now has no actual physical form to speak of, still leaves us messages to tells us how to defeat Oryx (based on knowledge he gleaned while moving through the Ascendant Realms of the sisters and their court). He tells us the weakness of Oryx is that s\he can't do enough dark deeds to feed the worm inside and so relies on the court to make up the slack. He tells us to eliminate the court to make Oryx vulnerable and this is the basis for the entire King's Fall raid i.e. eliminate Oryx court and then slay the king in that order. He tries to get us to take Oryx place and when we don't he offers one final stark warning that we are being manipulated and that it would have been better for us to have taken Oryx mantel than to face the betrayal that will come at the end of our long journey. Better to live a god than fall a fool..... Osiris is the only other like Toland. He too seems to be trying to prepare us to face something dark. In this case it's likely Vex related but, no less a threat than Oryx was. The dark heart in the black garden was never explained after all.

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          • Breaking the fourth wall here... Toland's entire purpose for joining Eris's fireteam was to meet Ir Yut, and learn the deathsong from her. He does, and now holds the death liturgy power that the deathsingers posses. The only problem with this is that to learn the song, Toland would die. The solution? Become Ascendant. When an Ascendant Hive dies, they are not really killed. They are banished to a different plane. For instance, when we killed Crota, his soul was not actually extinguished, just banished to a deeper level of reality. Therefore, your idea that Toland became ascendent is correct. However, Eris is not Ascendant. It is not easy to become an Ascendant Hive. You either have to kill one and take it's place, or rise through the ranks of the Hive, starting out as a measly thrall. It would make sense that Eris never truly became Ascendant, as she was not obsessed with the Hive until after Crota destroyed her team. Another tidbit of info: Toland can still communicate with those on this side of reality. He chastises us for not taking Oryx's place after killing him, and even provides a way for us to kill Golgoroth (He summons the orbs). It is my personal belief that he manifests himself as the rock that Eris holds. This may be another reason that Cayde-6 doesn't like the rock. His predecessor, as well as most of the hunter order, were employed by Toland to help unlock the secrets of the Hive, though they believe he betrayed them, after one of the hunters was sacrificed on a Hive urn. Cayde may be able to sense his presence within the stone. Or it may just be that he want Eris to get her rock off his map. Also, Toland does not a ghost. Neither does Eris. This is why Toland could not just revive himself after being killed by the Deathsingers. (That and the darkness was too strong). This is also how the Hive were able to trap Eris in the moon. They destroyed her ghost. She couldn't transmat out, and if she died, she would stay dead. She had to hide from the Hive, hence her telling you to use the shadows in that one dark below mission.) Also, I didn't think about him being a Thanatonaut. That's a very interesting theory. However, I think that he stayed away from most organizations, fraternizing only with Osiris, because of their similar nature.

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          • Edited by Himalayan Salt: 12/20/2015 7:52:12 PM
            Check the Ishtar Collective website, man. It's pretty obvious that he used Hive magic and stuff to be rid of his physical form and go to what's most likely the Ascendant realm. He is the one who speaks of there being an "opening" in the before-Regicide and after-Regicide mission grimoire. He is the one who gets pissed at you for killing Oryx in the post-Raid grimoire and not replacing him somehow. He becomes a smartass, frankly. I don't know if you mentioned this, because this post is way too long and I'm off cooking Ramen so I have no time for it. Typing this up is pretty quick, though.

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          • *clears throat* Ehm. I am Toland.

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          • Too bad toland isn't connected to the light anymore. If you go back and read the crota raid/story grimoire. The team's ghosts we're drained of their light. Eris herself no longer has her ghost, or light. As her eyes are bleeding darkness and all. I kinda want to think that the little ball of taken light IS Toland. Think on it guardians. Why does this little ball keep leading us through the story? Why does it not do the "Taking"? Why does IT give us the necessary power to defeat oryx?(Torn between dimension) Seems a little absurd to prepare ways in which to kill yourself in your place of last stand. Then there's the creepy grimoire about the actual oryx raid itself. Read that stuff, It's cryptic. Like someone is asking to take oryx's place after we kill him

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          • Edited by CresterOts: 12/20/2015 6:05:15 PM
            Kind of makes you wonder about Osiris, as while Toland is going through the Ascendant Realm he calls out for Osiris. I also suspect Osiris was with Eris when they were talking to The Queen.

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          • Savathun is Eris. I'm calling it now. She betrayed Oryx and his Son. Exactly like Oryx would want her to do. She betrayed, He explored, We committed war. All 3 got what they wanted

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            • I think toland is going to assume the empty taken throne. I forget which lore card it is, but one speaks to you directly, asking why your leaving after killing oryx. Either toland, or the awoken queen and prince.

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              • Read the oryx cards under exalted hive (taken king, rebuked, and Echo). 99% that is Toland speaking, after the events of crota, and giving insight into Oryx. Toland seems to have survived the ordeal, and unlike Eris, sided more with the hive and his beloved death singers

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              • Well done, I like it and you even tell us some other theories. Of note though is that in the "King's Fall" grimoire card Toland is curious as to how we knew what to do in order to defeat Golgoroth and Oryx. Although this maybe more about specifics since Toland's help would be vague if he did help. But regardless Toland is not dead and is attempting to communicate with Eris and The Guardian.

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              • Eh, all guardians cheat death mate.

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              • Toland was never confirmed dead. Eris assumed he died after he went after Ir Yut hoping to learn her song and never returned. Toland could have died to Ir Yut's song of ending or he could have succeeded in learning the song quickly enough to devise a counter. However if he was to make a return the events of TTK would have been the best time as he is the Hive expert after all. More specifically when you get trapped after stealing Crota's essence he could have been the one who used the chanting to pull the guardian to safety instead of Eris.

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