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Destiny

Discuss all things Destiny.
7/31/2015 5:32:47 PM
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Dynamics of game lag and its effects on Player Experience and Competitive aspects of PvP

Bungie always talks about the "Player Experience" in almost every communication release to the public. What I want to dive into here in this thread is how lag is not just a static but rather dynamic variable that directly effects the out come of the "Player Experience." First let me mention the extremes some players go through to get competitive advantages in the game. Some players invest in custom controllers or Scuf controllers to minimize the time it takes them to send control signals to the PS or Xbox. Some modify their controller with game kontrol freaks to increase the precision of the controller to gain an advantage. Some players seek out the visual end by using smaller monitors with faster processing speed to gain milliseconds of advantage based on how fast the monitor can display the consoles video output. I will refer to these as all [b]legitimate physical modifications[/b] that players do to positively impact their personal playing experience. Scuf Gaming [url]https://scufgaming.com/[/url] Kontrol Freaks [url]http://www.kontrolfreek.com/[/url] Benq Gaming Monitor [url]http://gaming.benq.com/[/url] The [b]non-legitimate methods[/b] are ever evolving on the physical methods. The most famous is the Lag-switch where a player takes the network cable from his modem/router that connects to the console and modifies the cable by adding a normally closed switch to the orange pair in the CAT Ve cable directly connecting it to the bottom of the controller- this allows the player to simply disconnect from the game when they are in trouble. Why does this work, because it is an online game and like most gaming platforms packets are asynchronous meaning they are sent and if dropped the system moves on to the next packet never error checking nor requesting pass missed packets of data. This is a positive experience for the lag switcher and a negative experience for anyone playing against one. Next we have the advance computer security methods that are used to DOS (denial of service) attack players or DDOS (distributed denial of service). First let's understand the likely hood of you being DDOS on your console is less than a simple DOS attack. It would require the individual doing the attack to have hacked and control multiple systems in order to carry out the attack. If you were attacked most likely it was a DOS attack in which a player on the opposing team is running his system with the computer in-between the console and the modem/router with a packet filter such as wireshark. The player captures your IP address then launches a program to DOS attack you usually by pinging your system with large file sizes until it is overwhelmed and freezes, causes system shutdown, causes the application to crash, etc... All this in an effort to gain a physical advantage in the game--I file it as physical due to it direct effect on the physical console ending another persons player experience. It is important to note that just because your system freezes or crashes does not mean you were DOS attacked it could be bugs in the application, system console, a change needed by a system update, etc... Next we have those that [b]modify software[/b] on the console or the actual application itself. It's important to note that Destiny does an integrity check before launching you into the gaming atmosphere, some would think this solves the problem of modifiers. The fact is it only changes when the content is modified. In most gaming modification scripts or code the application is modified internally on the console prior to launching that game. This leaves the hackers to modify the game after the integrity check, because that is the only known check---as I refuse to connect wireshark and read through packet information to see if there is indeed other checks we will presume that this is the only check. I personally would never go to the lengths to cheat a gaming system but the most obvious method that would be hard to discover is external packet filtering, in another words having a computer system in the middle of the modem/router and console. At that point analyse the content in the packets and determine what packets are sent that mean a hit by an opponent, write a script to modify those packets before forwarding to the console. To prevent detection a player would have to create the code to randomize the amount of hits to filter. Say you are playing crucible and you notice a player that takes a lot of damage, more likely than not the hits are not being communicated via the netcode of the gaming platform. Sometimes this is server side, the method above of packet filtering/modifying also explains this type of engagement. Both these have a positive effect on the player experience for the individual that is straight up cheating and a negative experience for all those on the opposing end. Next I want to point out another software modification in which the same layout of the computer system in the middle of the modem/router and console in which the computer system aids in targeting in First Person Shooters (FPS) or actually plays the game for that individual. If you have ever been in a match of crucible and a gunslinger hits 4 targets in 180 degree plane in a fraction of a second he is extremely gun skilled or using a system to manipulate the platform. Now I want to address the lack of dedicated servers for game play and the effects lag plays on the actual player experience: [b]Tactically[/b] If a player is lagging it can have a positive or negative impact based on the players style but if an analysis were conducted I would bet that the statistical deviation of win verse loss ratio would dramatically favor those whom lag. The following below discusses some of the dynamics in which lag favors tactically. [b]Ammo[/b] If a lagging player is charging into a group of the opposing team almost everyone is shooting at the target with primary and special weapons. This leads to a depletion of special ammo that is already been depleted due to adjustments bungie made in the past. Because the player is lagging I have to put more shots into that player to deal damage causing me to reload more often and making me vulnerable to aggressive assaults on my position. A perfect example would be if I use the most commonly used weapon in crucible...aka the Thorn. If everything is working properly two head shots will make the enemy burn out and die or 3 body shots, that is 2-3 of 9 meaning I can engage 3 targets before reloading or switching to my special weapon. On a lagging player you could empty 5-6 head shots or 8-9 body shots with the same weapon before that person is dead. Tactically the advantage plays out the best when the lagging player charges/blinks aggressively towards the enemy with teammates behind picking everyone off as they try to deal with the immediate threat of the rushing shotgun/shoulder charge. This 5-9 shots is a substantial differential of time focused on one target. A few charges by a lagging player can deplete an entire team of special ammo dramatically effecting the outcome of the game. [b]Terrain[/b] The goal of most militant engagements involves the control of terrain, aka if I control more area there is less area the enemy can be, the less paths the enemy can take and easier for me to pinch, flank and kill. The lag creates a dynamic of bunching players together as they team up to try and kill the lagging player, unconsciously because everyone is trying to create distance in the terrain to increase the time to kill the charging target which funnels players together. Aggressive tactics have a dramatically negative impact on player distribution across the map and control of the terrain when performed by a lagging account. [b]Objectives[/b] The extra time to kill of a lagging person gives them the ability to neutralize/capture zones and dismantle salvage points creating huge boosts to the scoring system or deciding the outcome of a match creating an extremely negative player experience. [b]Weapon Damage[/b] Weapons act in multiple different ways for lagging players. When they shoot a target because the target is not lagging the damage is applied immediately, however dependent on how much lag the lagging player damage is not fully applied. For example thorn has two factors the immediate damage then damage over time. When the round hits the opponent that lags it also contains timing for the burn to stop, if the packet lags enough the burn timing is expired before the immediate damage is applied, this changes the effect of a 2 head shot thorn kill to a 3-4 head shot kill plus a differential of time. This scalar time differential (additional shots and time for lag to register hits) allows a disadvantaged opponent to engage and kill multiple targets being their damage is immediate. [b]Targeting[/b] Because the target is most likely moving the lagging player appears to be located in one location of your screen and when you target and hit that vector space and it is communicated in a battle ship like manner it becomes a miss due to lag in communicating players location. So what happens when a lagging player takes advantage of targeting and weapon damage that then leads to Terrain control. Well what comes next is called a Spawn Trap. [b]Spawn Trap[/b] is when a team has closed off as much area of the map as possible without flipping spawn points. This means they know where you are going to spawn what lanes you have to take and the likely hood of your K/D going positive is dramatically decreased. What is the worst element of the spawn comes with the animation that makes you helpless for about 1 1/2 seconds. All and All the player experience is directly related to the lag and lag is the deciding factor in most PvP engagements. If you are not the one lagging it is a negative player experience when you are going against a player that does.

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  • old but gold, thanks!

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  • I don't understand all this complex stuff but here's a great example of a laggy match. http://xboxclips.com/jeff5551/5be00226-998a-4422-9e95-99fc963cf36a

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  • So will dedicated servers fix this problem? Or nah?

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    • My biggest problem at the moment Is the bungie servers helping/assisting players who are quite clearly not able to hold a stable or decent connection. I have more issues with games where there are bunches of people who are lagging just because they're still playing fps in 2015 on dial up. The servers should boot players who aren't on a stable local connection with the host. Or how about dedicated servers? Just a thought. I've found it really hard to believe even a quarter of my crucible games all time are against locals based on the lag.

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      • I live in China, my internet isn't very good, although it is advertised as broadband, there are only 2 ISP's here and you can't really get anything great. The console community here isn't big at all. I tend to red or yellow bar, but by no means do I feel I have an advantage over anyone. I have many instances where it seems someone should have died but didn't and I did. When I went home to England my scores on the whole were much better, and even the internet there wasn't particularly good.

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      • bump for amazing post : )

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      • I've taken a break from Destiny or was on a break at least, wanted to start fresh with TTK. But I could help logging in a for few skirmish matches to burn off some steam before work or after the gym. Holy f-ck the lag and blatant cheating by players it takes the fun out of playing Pvp. I would say I am an above average Pvp player I play skirmish and my KD is around 1.71 for both of my characters. And playing recently has just made me question my love for this game and whether or not TTK will be able to fix some of the crazy issues.

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      • I understand people are manipulating their MTU values also; My experience in PvP is negative, mostly to such an extent I have stopped playing it, but now I have to to get my Crucible marks to 200 ready for the DLC and I'm not looking forward to it. I would like to read that Bungie acknowledge the lag problems and are working to solve the problem instead of posting a standard notice blaming players connection, yes I know some people are not set up correctly or have a poor connections, I was in that position when I first started playing and always red barred, but now have changed ISP with a 30+Mbps fibre cable connection, port forwarded, cat 5 cabled to latest BT router, have a gaming monitor with 2ms refresh and set that up optimally but the lag persists even though I hardly ever get a red bar now. On top of that we have to deal with the cheaters!!! It a real poor show from Bungie especially when us Brits have to pay more for the new DLC than our American cousins!!!

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        • Edited by Mors: 9/13/2015 12:25:46 PM
          The lag is the worst opponent in the destiny pvp, not the players...best gaming experience ever.........thank you bungie.......

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        • Given you're the only person I've seen on here who seems to actually understand the fundamentals of the connection to the game I'll ask this here. Can the "netcode" be manipulated to handle the mismatch in packets differently? And do you think Bungie purposefully try and keep those with a poor connection competitive? (Which in turn amplifies the benefits of lagswitchers etc.) The reason I ask is that through my COD days (MW - Bops2) which I believe were a p2p connection as well, if you had a poor connection you were 1/2-1 second behind play and basically useless. The inverse was true, i.e if I was host and someone overseas was in game with red bar, they'd barely be able to register a hit on me. Also, there was never these situations where you get the shot off, you die, and then your opponent dies, which I feel is built in to help those on a poor connection.

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          • Can I -blam!-ing marry you? Lol. Excellent post, great info, very well-put. I only wish all the posts I read on this forum were as intelligent and well-informed.

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            • Seems like every game has someone with a poor connection, that stays poor no matter what, and they end up with 4k points because no one else can shoot them. I thought this problem was meant to be resolved but I see it all the time

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              • I didnt bother reading the full thing but just here to say that if u didnt include playing with a mouse and keyboard then u should. The accuracy that u get with a m&kb is so much superior then joysticks, some of the best destiny players play with m&kb

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                • Edited by Mavsy 81: 8/25/2015 1:06:03 PM
                  Thanks for the info. Personally I think 70% of reports are false and it's just Bungie's average to poor servers.

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                  • Well written and spot on.

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                    • Bump this needs to hit trending and be seen by all.

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                    • Your final summation is incorrect. If I play on my home wifi which currently has a 2 mbps down and 0.2mbps up I am always red barring. My experience in this case is my hits not registering. It often feels as though feels as though I am getting one shotted by every freaking gun in the game. When blade dancing I often hit the enemy multiple times just to die to their shotgun. If I play with my phone as a wifi hotspot I get 10-15mbps down and 1-2 mbps up and my performance improves massively Perhaps in the instances where you are causing intentional lag via the methods you mentioned you are correct but assuming anyone who is lagging had an advantage is incorrect

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                    • Thanks for the great post. It explains why I can pump 5, 6 ,7 or more exotic hand cannon head and body shots into an enemy 15-20 feet away and he doesn't go down but I get one shotted by an blue auto or pulse rifle halfway across the map. I often never feel or hear a second, never mind a third or fourth shot that should be what kills me which is bullsh*t. It's one shot or one 1/2 second burst and I'm dead. Weapon range is another major problem in that I'll use a powerful but very low range shotgun on a tight map and be only 10-15 feet away and my direct chest or head hit measures little if any damage while an enemy uses the very same gun and kills me from what I would consider the legitimate maximum range of the gun. You've nailed it. This stuff totally ruins the Destiny PvP experience.

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                    • Today I logged in and started a PVP match...it was the burning shrine...I came up against a Titan with my trusty Hopscotch Pilgrim...putting one full burst into his head and another into his body...having not done the appropriate damage I blinked forward to give a finishing melee...but something happened...he didn't die..he meleed me about two seconds after I meleed him...in a panic I did my best to blink to cover...but about two seconds after I got meleed he got a headshot in with his hand cannon...it was a clean shot...I'll give him that...about a second after I died to his headshot he dies and I get a postmortem medal...shows that my melee is what finished him...about five seconds, a melee and a headshot too late...this is what frustrates me...I don't think the guy was cheating me..but that sort of thing happens all of the time...

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                      • My favorite part of crucible is when I throw a firebolt grenade and I see the fire chain connect to an all powerful red bar connection player but no damage is dealt. Wasting my grenade energy can change the tide of an entire round in trials.

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                        • bump

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                        • All of the Bump.

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                        • Bump. Motherbump. Fatherbump.

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                        • Is this your computer science paper you wrote this week for class?

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                        • Bump

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                        • Bump

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