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Edited by Nightshrike: 12/7/2014 2:42:21 AM
32

How to Fix Supers for PvP and PvE (Constructive Criticism and Suggestions)

I agree with most or all of these suggestions.

42

I disagree with most or all of these suggestions.

82

I have no opinion so far.

32

[b]DISCLAIMER:[/b] [spoiler]Are you one of these? [u]Desticle Type 1[/u] You are an apologist for Bungie and Destiny and you refuse to accept or contemplate [i]any[/i] criticism toward Destiny, no matter how the argument is presented to you and no matter how reasonable the suggestions are. Instead, you label [i]anyone[/i] who suggests anything to modify certain aspects of Destiny a "crybaby" who should "go play Call of Duty instead", like you saw several other people do. [u]Desticle Type 2[/u] You absolutely abhor Destiny, regardless of whether or not you've spent over a hundred hours playing Destiny, and this also somehow makes you hate everyone who likes Destiny. You are prone to spamming the forums with "Nerf [i][Insert Something Here][/i]" threads, sometimes without providing any good reasons why (probably because you got your ass kicked in the Crucible) and insulting anyone who disagrees with you. You are the reason Type 1 Desticles exist. If you [i]are[/i] one of these types of people, please leave this thread [i]immediately[/i]. Thank you. Now for the rest of you guys, please keep it civil and respect one another.[/spoiler] [[b]Feel free to skip past this wall of text for the actual changes to the Supers][/b] [b][TL;DR at the bottom][/b] I've made this thread hoping that Bungie notices and implements a few changes that could make Destiny a more enjoyable experience overall. This is genuine constructive criticism, not blind bandwagon hate. In fact, the very reason I'm writing this is because I love Destiny. I love the concept behind the game, and I only seek to improve this experience for everyone... [spoiler]Or at least for most people, since you can't please everyone (there'll always be [i]some[/i] people whining about [i]something[/i][/spoiler] This time, I'd like to talk about Supers in general, both in PvP and PvE. Supers are fundamental to warfare in Destiny and play an extremely crucial role in turning the tides of battle. They're demonstrations of a Guardian's raw power and prowess at wielding the Traveler's Light. Supers have caused a lot of controversy and sometimes even hatred among the community. We all have seen those threads complaining about how a certain Super is OP, and that it should be nerfed. There are so many of them out there that by now, and I have seen nerf threads for [i]every single[/i] Super already (although threads complaining about Ward of Dawn are rather rare). I have a level 29 Warlock, a level 29 Hunter, and a level 25 Titan. As someone who has spent quite a lot of time with every single subclass (except Striker) and has quite a lot of experience in the Crucible, I feel that I am qualified to give suggestions and talk about how to tweak the various Supers. Without further ado, let's dive right in. Super should kill Super. If used strategically, a Super should be able to take out another. However, this is not always the case. Voidwalkers and Strikers get ridiculous amounts of damage reduction while casting their Supers. In fact, they can survive a Golden Gun shot or an Arc Blade slash. I've tried using Golden Gun to kill a Warlock about to cast Nova Bomb, but he survived the shot with a sliver of health and still managed to kill me. I've tried using Arc Blade to take out a Titan about to slam the ground with Fist of Havoc, but he also survived and I died. However, Golden Gun does kill Bladedancers with Arc Blade active, and vice verse. This makes Nova Bomb and Fist of Havoc perfect panic buttons. The downside to both of them is the limited kill potential. They rely on their targets to be clustered together to get multikills. Hunter Supers, on the other hand, have way more kill potential than Nova Bomb or Fist of Havoc, although they can be avoided more easily. While you barely have any time at all to react to Nova Bomb or Fist of Havoc, if you hear Golden Gun or Arc Blade get activated, you can just run away and hide. Hunters also receive significantly less damage reduction (Gunslingers receive none at all), making them pretty easy to kill mid-Super, and lose [i]all[/i] of their Super energy if they are killed while activating or using their Super. However, Hunters still have way more Super kills than Warlocks or Titans. Hopefully the following changes will address all these issues with the Supers if they are implemented. [u][b]General Crucible Changes[/b][/u] The killfeed notifies you of people who have just become Supercharged (e.g [b]xNightshrike[/b] is Supercharged). The edges/outlines of the sections of the Radar will pulsate yellow (like how the sections pulsate red if an enemy is crouching) when an enemy who is Supercharged is nearby. For example, all enemies, Supercharged or not, are currently only displayed as red sections on the Radar. With this change, an enemy who is not Supercharged will still be displayed as a red section only, but an enemy who is Supercharged will now be displayed as that same red section but with a pulsating yellow outline. Killing enemies mid-Super will generate an Orb of Light. Maybe even introduce new medals for killing enemies mid-Super. [u][b]Golden Gun[/b][/u] [b]PvP only[/b] - Reduced hitbox [b]PvE only[/b] - Increased damage - Ability to deal critical damage [u][b]Arc Blade[/b][/u] [b]General[/b] - Increased activation time - Receives increased critical damage (one headshot from a Sniper Rifle will kill a Bladedancer mid-Super) [b]PvE only[/b] - Generates more Orbs of Light - Increased damage - Increased damage reduction [u][b]Nova Bomb[/u][/b] [b]General[/b] - Cooldown reduced by slightly less than half - Lose a third of Super energy if killed mid-Super - All enemies struck by Nova Bomb's explosion (and Vortex effect) cannot use their abilities for ten seconds (identical effect to the Defender's Suppressor Grenade) [b]PvP only[/b] - Remove damage reduction [u][b]Radiance[/u][/b] [b]General[/b] - Increased movement speed - Increased weapon reload speed - Song of Light's effective radius is increased - Song of Light gives teammates Radiance's visual effect when they are within its effective radius - Fireborn's self-resurrect blinds nearby enemies briefly (similar to the Striker's Flashbang Grenade) [u][b]Fist of Havoc[/u][/b] [b]General[/b] - Cooldown reduced by slightly less than half - Lose a third of Super energy if killed mid-Super - All enemies struck by Fist of Havoc's explosion are briefly blinded (similar to the Striker's Flashbang Grenade) [b]PvP only[/b] - Remove damage reduction [u][b]Ward of Dawn[/b][/u] [b]PvP only[/b] - Able to withstand Nova Bomb To complement the changes to the Supers, I've also thought of several changes to several subclass perks. [u][b]Gunslinger[/b][/u] Replace [b]Circle of Life[/b] (killing an enemy with Throwing Knife while Golden Gun is active extends Golden Gun's duration) with [b]Encore[/b] (killing an enemy with Golden Gun extends its duration). I think we can all agree that [b]Circle of Life[/b] is utterly useless. [u][b]Bladedancer[/b][/u] The energy wave generated by the [b]Razor's Edge[/b] ability is now faster, wider and taller than before. [u][b]Voidwalker[/b][/u] Nothing needs to be done here. [u][b]Sunsinger[/b][/u] The hover ability granted by [b]Angel of Light[/b] lasts twice as long. I've already mentioned the changes to the other few perks. [u][b]Striker[/b][/u] [b]Unstoppable[/b] now does not grant damage reduction, but instead regenerates health and grants overshields if an enemy is killed by Fist of Havoc. [u][b]Defender[/b][/u] Nothing needs to be done here. [b][u]TL;DR[/u][/b] Gunslingers, You need to be more accurate with Golden Gun. Your Golden Gun is also much more powerful in PvE. Bladedancers, Arc Blade takes more time to activate, and you take more damage from headshots while Arc Blade is active, but damage reduction is left mostly unchanged. Voidwalkers and Strikers, No more panic Supers for you (damage reduction removed). However, your Super now recharges [i]twice[/i] as quickly to make up for your relatively low kill potential (compared to Hunters) and applies a debuff to those who take some AoE damage but had enough distance to survive the explosion. Sunsingers, Your Super gets an overall buff. Defenders, Your Super has been left alone. It's fine the way it is. So, what do you guys think? I would love to hear any suggestions that you guys have. Feel free to state what you agree or disagree with and why. And as I said, keep it civil. I'm not looking for any trouble.

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  • Never really saw a problem. Supers are sorta like a trump card. Normal guns and strats won't beat it. I've outsmarted people using my bubble. I actually LOVE the fact my bubbles a two way street, so many strikers jump into my bubble as I leave, it's sorta like covering up an explosive with those bomb suppressing things. Bad analogy, but it works well.

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  • No need to fix what's not broken.

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  • Yeah my icebreaker(not fully upgraded) does more damage in two shots then my whole golden gun It's bullshit For the golden gun I think: -bonus damage on head shots/precision kills -kills stack for boosted damage -more damage if you kills groups -larger blast radius for the GG explosive shot Comment and bump

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  • As a defender titan the only thing I think is since our bubble has almost zero offensive capabilities, that it should be able to block any super in PvP.

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    • 1 apon death during activation and use if super, super is lost 2 overshield should not exist

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      • I would LOVE a Razors Edge buff.

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        • these are all really good and fair suggestions. I really like how getting killed while using a super would take down a 3rd of your super energy

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        • I agree with most of what you are saying, however I do not think the charge time should be halved for nova bomb and fist of havoc, just imagine people throwing those down every minute. Also, the gunslinger needs the damage buff in PvE! It does so little damage right now, and nobody in their right mind is going to blade dance up to a boss. Good ideas overall.

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          • Edited by TheProtecter: 12/6/2014 10:12:33 PM
            I think supers should be buffed because they're supposed to be powerful In PVP a shotgun to the face does the same damage as Golden Gun

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          • I ALMOST took this seriously, then I saw you are warlock biased

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            • Edited by ChillyPaper074: 12/6/2014 8:31:53 AM
              Leave supers alone. They are fine. They are part of the game and you deal with them in PvP and PvE as they are.

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            • Disagree with all. I will stat however my experience with supers is not covered with nova bomb or ward of dawn. I've used every other super extensively though. Golden gun is actually perfect as is. It took me a long time and i mean a REALLY long time to actually understand this class despite it being the first one i've ever used. The super of it is not the bread and butter of the class. your melee and nades are. your super is just a compliment for damage in pve. nothing more. Your gun is the main in this class. you nade heavy areas and use knives to finish off something. golden gun is saved best for bosses. I say your gun is the main in class because you can increase your DPS through 2 perks that make you reload faster and be more accurate. You put out more damage there then you ever will with golden gun. If you need the extra accuracy there are perks for it. Now on to arc blade. Firstly the only right way to make this class better for pve is to redo the talent tree entirely. Invisibility is a gimmick that doesn't work at all for pvp and is only helpful for revives in pve. It doesn't do any good damage without risking your safety which is not what you want in end game. As far as it's pvp goes it's also fine. The animation is long enough and loud enough to give anyone near by a quick warning. Blade dancers can be one hit by sniper headshots and direct rockets. The damage reduction is only useful for small arms fire (aka primaries) and if you are far enough away you get dropped. I'll say this again even though i've done so a million times. Blade dancer is not OP. You honestly have to spend a few days playing the class to truly realize what it's really about. Novabomb. As I admitted earlier I have yet to use extensively. My warlock is sunsinger. However I find your changes not needed. If you go pure void build your super cools down pretty quickly due to your energy drain ability being better and any void damage (weapons aside) will proc the energy drain effect. even your super triggers it. The you have skull of dire ahamkara that further improves your drain ability making cool downs even faster and you become practically impossible to kill mid super. The damage reduction should not be removed. The animation is lengthy as is. I've killed some mid super. I get you want people to not panic shoot it. But in reality it's a net loss for them in most situations (rumble aside.) Radiance. Also a misunderstood class. Your super is not meant to make you god like. Nor is it meant to replace your gun. The best pvp setup is as follows: firebolt grenade. Pve or pvp this is the one you want. Good AOE and it's practically instant. PvP you take radiant skin. The reduced damage tilts gun fights to your favor. fireborn would be the choice for pve. melee that gives you shields. For both pve and pvp. viking funeral for pvp. the perk that makes radiant last longer for pve. lastly take the perk that allows all nades to set things on fire. in pve take gift of the sun. In pvp you become slightly tankier and have the ability to quickly tag enemies who run away or who sit behind a corner. due to viking funeral they will burn longer and take more damage almost promising you a kill if you damaged them at all. the ticks also indicate where they are. your melee can be a panic button incase you slipped up. Then you super to make your dps go through the roof and smack down anyone who gets close. I recommend taking thorn. DOT heaven. it DOES stack with flame ticks. In many ways sunsinger is like gunslinger where your super isn't your focus. Treat it that way and you will do much better. FOH doesn't need any changes either. For one the blind effect would be pointless as anyone who's touched by it is dead and should the user choose to run aftershocks will finish anyone off. The damage reduction is needed as the dude has to get near melee range just to get at least one kill. FOH also has a way to get it's super back faster. melee kills. There is a helmet called insermountable skull fort. it gives you the ability to get health back upon a melee kill automatically. AND you spawn in with melee energy. making you be able to reduce your super cool time by a lot. Allowing the titans to focus on int or nades. If they go INT then their super comes by even faster. Though personally i'd take nade spam because the titans nades are the strongest imo. Ward of dawn. This class inline with FOH are the most balanced of the classes. neither excel in any area but they are not underpowered. You can run this one several ways. Not really going to go into detail here because you also find this super good as is. The only thing i'd suggest is adding some way to tell how much longer WOD has till it goes away. I'm not going to discuss perks in the talent trees. I do agree some of them are useless. But if we remove them then we have to re consider the balance for the whole tree. To me the "useless" perks are there for people who haven't been able to master how the class can play as in the hands of an optimal player. Only then do perks actually become redundant. I think out of everything destiny has done class balance was one they got right. Of course I dislike certain classes. For me it's warlock. But I don't think any changes need to be made. If you do read thanks for sticking to the end. I don't often type up this much in one reply. But it was a lot to cover.

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              • I actually agree with a lot of these to be fair. Especially the PVE ones

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                • Edited by ZanzaJoe: 12/5/2014 10:28:38 PM
                  Having a 3 classes and played all 3 in pvp I kinda feel the panic/defensive capabilities of fist of havoc and nova bomb are part of their special little niche. Also the announcing and showing of people who have their super would greatly hurt those 2 classes. Both the Hunter supers have cast time delays when uses and a loud distinct noise. They have extremely high kill potential so I feel the obvious warning is the counter play to that kill potential. Nova bomb and FoH don't have warnings but they also don't have as high a kill potential. And both those specs have talents to help actively progress the cooldown. Golden gun needs a huge damage buff for PvE I think you can just add the buff and not really affect PvP much since it's already a 1 shot. Titan and Warlocks clearly have the better grenades so they have a higher kill potential without their super than a hunter does. That's just my thoughts. I'd like to see a game type where the supers and double jumps are disabled. I have more issues with gun balance the. Super balance. We just seem to cycle through all using the same loadouts makes pvp feel very bland.

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                • I like how you make the Titan and warlock a nerf but the hunter gets a buff, I guess we all know what class you are

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                  • I still feel like defender needs an overall buff

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                    • I play all three, and I must say that without damage reduction the titan super would be awful. since you have to be in close range to use it you take a lot of hits just advancing on a group or even a single guy. Essentially it would be shoulder charge with splash damage, and If you have ever tried shoulder charging from the front you know that you get taken down most of the time. Also One thing I'd like to point out about the striker and voidwalker supers is that while their super does not reset upon death, it is often wasted. I consider myself to be a fairly good player and I miss with those supers all the time, where as with golden gun if you miss once you get two more tries (three with the helmet) and bladedancer if you miss the melee you also get more tries. These are just some things that you should consider when you see strikers and voidwalkers not losing super upon death. Also like you said hunters usually get more super kills anyway (I do as a hunter too) so overall I don't think novabomb or fist of havoc should be made harder to use.

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                    • I like the idea but it seems like Hunters get the better end of the deal. I find Hunters strong as it is and the damage reduction for Nova Blast and Fists of Havoc are greatly needed. Warlock and Titans would have to start firing off their supers before the enemy can react were as Hunters not so much. The ideas are good but not needed I think.

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                      • Edited by Ding_Ding99: 12/5/2014 10:13:56 PM
                        I agree on most of them specially the damage reduction thing , cuz it just breaks the ability on going on a high kill streak , like ur on a 10 killstreak and then a striker shows up that barely has any kills and just kills you with his super while your shooting him. I have one thing to add: that when ever u die it removes some of ur super energy cuz again it doesnt make any since that a guy that is on a 5 DEATH streak can just go and kill someone who's on a high kill streak without any effort

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                      • I was about to flame about striker not getting damage reduction for super until I saw over shield part. Although they should get some type of damage reduction in PVE for when you have death from above. Your a clear target for Hobs doing that.

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                        • There are so many other things to be complained about at this point in time, yet you decide to make an almost irrelevant post that will get close to no attention. (Not trying to hate or anything, but an argument like this is not going to go in your favor)

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                          • What a joke. These suggestions are awful and completely one sided.

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                            • No

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                            • Edited by Big Boss: 12/5/2014 4:38:00 PM
                              Voidwalkers have damage reduction now huh? I call bullshit. The only way to get damage reduction is from the helmet. I would die mid-super a lot without the helmet. Increased time on Arc Blade. Increased time... No. Let's end it there. Fist of Havoc is a panic button yes, but Strikers are melee oriented. If you get close to a Striker, you should expect death or to outgun them. Hunter dying in one crit during arc blade? I don't see that being good even if I hate the class. Maybe two. One would be a little too fast. Losing one-third of super energy from dying as Titan or Warlock, sounds great actually. It makes it more fair for Hunters. Not a bad idea. I can't help but see a little bias here. Some good ideas, but PvP needs to remain untouched. Make supers better in PvE if you must, but leave PvP alone before it breaks more.

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                              • I find these very biased.

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                              • It's not that these suggestions weren't thought out, there is just no reason for Bungie to make players learn how to use two different super abilities per sublcass.

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