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Destiny

Discuss all things Destiny.
Edited by Demon By Desire: 1/16/2014 1:41:55 AM
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Skill concerns in Destiny

[spoiler]Last updated: 1/15/14 19:40 CST[/spoiler] [b][u]DISCLAIMER:[/u] I am sure this looks like a wall of text, but I can assure you, cohesive thought was put into writing this, and every sentence is important. I implore you; read this entire thread, rather than fanboying about what class you're choosing, what console you're playing on, and what clan you'll be in. This is the stuff that matters.[/b] I have two major concerns involving the skill gap (the ability for high-skilled players to separate themselves from low-skilled players, or however you want to define it) in Destiny. The first is headshots. In Halo, there is a massive emphasis on headshots. While you can and often do end a firefight with a body shot, headshots are quite often the deciding factor in a firefight. You even have gametypes like SWAT, where you have no choice but to shoot the head for a kill (unless you're in Halo 4, but I prefer to deny that that game even exists), which promotes pin-point accuracy and speed. Comparing to the other FPS titan out there, Call of Duty, headshots have almost no bearing on gameplay at all. Headshots in CoD are designed to lower the number of shots required for a kill by one (or none, depending on the gun and how far you are from your target). They essentially always happen by accident, and lower the time to kill by very small amounts of time. However, this may be relatively large amounts, given the quick resolution times in Call of Duty. I have played a lot of CoD, and I can tell you that hardly anyone makes a conscious effort to go for headshots, unlike Halo. This means that it becomes much more of a "spray and pray" type of gameplay, rather than a precise, high-skill gameplay. You have a much larger region to aim for, and simply fill it full of holes. Speaking of Call of Duty, I'm reminded of my second topic -- firefight resolution speed. Bungie has said fights will resolve more quickly in Destiny. With any luck, this means not quite as fast as CoD. In Call of Duty, if you get shot from behind, you are essentially marked for death, unless a teammate comes to the rescue, or your opponent is incredibly bad and misses almost every shot. This awards a free kill to a player simply because the spawns flipped (silly linear spawn systems), or they got the ups on you (which, I suppose, could be a legitimate tactical decision). In Halo, you have plenty of time to retaliate, and often win, when shot from behind. But gun fight lengths extend far beyond surprise attacks. In Halo, you have to land several shots, generally with some sort of precision weapon, like the DMR or BR, over a period of time, all while your enemy is doing his utmost to return fire and dodge your shots. During this time, you also have to line up the headshot as soon as your opponents shields are broken. Clearly this requires a bit more effort than simply spraying and praying, particularly when nonlinear maps are considered, among other things. Does anyone else share my concerns? Have I brought up a valid point that will rally the masses? I hope so.

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  • So I finally got around to listening to the podcast, and some references to skill were made that I feel should be noted here. As I believe another user noted below, a member of the podcast said skill will be less about "thumb skill" and more about knowing how to counter certain situations. I am fine with this, as long as the thumb skill is still retained. Otherwise, it becomes Call of Duty, in which situation ends up being everything, because everyone dies from a hail of bullets no matter what. Not the best way to phrase that, I know, but overall Call of Duty places most of its emphasis on being in the right place (usually with your head peeking out from behind an object, you sneaky little buggers) rather than having to land shots with great efficiency. Another thing that was noted was the deadliness of the hand cannon, although it was stated that this was from an old build. The podcast member said that with two headshots the hand cannon can drop an opponent, but a lot of skill and practice was required to be able to consistently land those two headshots. He also noted that to counter this, one might rush up on the hand cannon-wielding Guardian with an assault rifle and make it very difficult for the opponent to have a chance to land very precise shots. My concerns remained unanswered, but as always, Destiny sounds like it will be an amazing game.

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  • I agree with everything your saying, but I'll give Destiny the benefit of the doubt. Let's bring skill back into these games!

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  • There is surely more to a game than the ratio of the average damage dealt per shot, and the average health. The question of how deep a game's mechanical and strategic depth goes is never a simple question. It's certainly not something than can really be discussed when you don't have every single detail known. Until the game is out, nothing of any significance can be said the game's skill ceiling. [spoiler]When all's said and done, 'dat console auto-aim amirite? /easyJab[/spoiler]

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  • I'm going to be honest. I have NO worries about Destiny. I'm sure it will be fine.

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    • Edited by Ammo240: 1/17/2014 8:24:48 AM
      Destiny will still require players to be skillful I believe, just not necessarily in the same ways as Halo. If you haven't listened to the latest podcast you should because they address some of the skills you'll need to be successful in the competitive world of Destiny. It seems like situational awareness is key. With each class, each focus, and each build we'll be seeing many different play styles, and it's our job to decide how to counter these play styles. It will be important to know when and how to use our abilities. Also, it seems as if some of the most powerful weapons and abilities will require much more skill to master. Bottom line, Destiny is a different game from Halo. Bungie stated that they're not making what is essentially another Halo. They emphasized that some of the mechanics will feel familiar, but overall they are creating an entirely new experience. I strongly recommend you listen to the podcast if you haven't already. They go into a lot more depth about skill in Destiny. I just stated what I felt were the main points. I hope that it helps lessen some of these concerns of yours. Also I'd like to add that many of the points you make are reasons why I love Halo. That being said, I understand where your concerns are coming from.

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    • Ah, the slightly-elitist yet rational and intelligent forum-goers. How I love you guys. Given the fact that we have watched gameplay, the movement and combat in Destiny seems much faster than Halo, what with Destiny's sprinting, sliding, and aerial-moves (glide, double- jump, blink, etc.), I would guess that it will be much harder to be accurate in Destiny. Players will move faster and be able to kill quicker, and so unlike in Halo, where I at least felt like I had enough time to line up a shot, Destiny will force players to be a but more spray-and-pray. Another important factor you somewhat neglected was the increased variety of weapons available to players from spawning. They have repeatedly mentioned that there are basic, specialized, and heavy weapons, and that you will start with no heavy ammunition in competitive. In Halo, with the exception of later rounds of Invasion, most of the time you were given a BR or AR and a pistol, and then had to find weapons. In Destiny, players will start with not only assault rifles and SMG-types, but also shotguns, sniper rifles, and hand-cannons. This means that basic combat in Destiny will be more specialized, and will become more of a "What weapon or power do I need to beat this player?", rather than a "How can I be a better shot?"

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      • Did the podcast clear up any concerns about skill for you guys?

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        • Edited by Hylebos: 1/15/2014 5:15:07 PM
          With regards to Destiny having a quicker firefight resolution speed than Halo, that's absolutely neccessary for the success of the game. The main problem that prevents Destiny from having kill times more akin to some of the latest Halo games is that every Guardian, regardless of class or focus, will have access to sprint and some form of a double jump, depending on focus. That's a ton more mobillity than we ever had in Halo Reach or Halo 3, which is great; snappy mobillity allows for snappy maneuvers which leads to some really exciting and dynamic encounters. ...Unless that is you use that mobillity to run the hell away from fights as soon as they go south. Then things get frustrating, because as Lars put it, Kill Resolution is a ton of fun. So it makes total sense for Bungie to twiddle the balance knobs in a way to make Destiny faster than Halo. But how much faster should it be? As you point out in your original post, it's not very fun when the gameplay is so fast that you can't react to an attack or whoever shoots first usually wins, and from what I've heard and read Bungie isn't shooting for that type of experience. It's a balancing act obviously, but I'm thinking that Destiny will shy closer to things like Halo 2 and Halo CE rather than Call of Duty. The point is making it fast enough so that people feel that standing their ground and fighting to overcome a slight disadvantage is more productive than trying to escape. And this isn't to say that players shouldn't be allowed to escape from any firefight once it starts, just that it shouldn't be the standard go-to strategy because that would just be silly. The headshots concern is a good point, it's something I've thought of previously but never really voiced on the forums, and I don't have enough information yet to really know to what degree it will actually be a problem or have a nice explanation for why Bungie might be doing what they are doing. My hope is that all weapons will critical hit on headshots, regardless of whether you're using a Pulse Rifle, a Scout Rifle, an Auto Rifle, Shotgun, Rocket, whatever. Though at the end of the day, the skill cap of a Shooter does not live or die based on how much emphasis you put on head shots, at best it raises the skill floor for competition. So long as the precision weapons (Pulse Rifle, Scout Rifle, Handcannon, Sniper) emphasize headshots then that should be enough, but I just don't see a reason this time around why things like the Auto Rifle shouldn't either. It's okay if you're still concerned about skill in Destiny, I just wanted to try to perhaps explain some of their decisions with my imperfect perspective.

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          • "They essentially always happen by accident," thats a lie, dude some people have spent the entire 10,00 hours of mastery on call of duty. If they want to land a headshot they will. oh and yeah i was kind of disappointed with the news of faster interactions [spoiler]Halo was the first fps i every played. i was 10 and it was at my cousins house in texas. he was playing it and i was was whining about wanting to play shadow the hedgehog, a game that had just come out. I didnt play that many video games but when he game me a controller and killed me 16 times i was hooked. (i also lived in africa so i didnt really hear about new video games like most kids) I remember my joy when i killed him once, i was so excited. so when i played cod for the first time i hated it. it was all so fast there was never the suspense and thrill a good ol one on one held like in halo. This was due to the way halo characters could take more bullets. ( i eventually warmed up to cod)[/spoiler] i am very concerned about this especially because of the type of weapons we are hearing about. imagine if a gjallarhorn sentry could take out a whole team due to good positioning and very few shots

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            • Casual players > hardcore players. Some people have lives outside of video games.

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              • I'm buying into this game believing that it will require the skill you speak of. Don't get me wrong, they'll let the noobins of the world have a fighting chance; I just feel like they're going to continue making a game that is meant to be thought through. If it's as easy as being in the lucky spot to snag a kill; it's not Bungie.

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              • I do see your concerns and considering we have not seen any in depth firefights they are valid. I feel like the additions of skills like the hunter's golden gun and the warlock's nova bomb could attribute to these faster kill resolutions they are speaking of.

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                • Bungie says that you won't be able to immediately jump into competitive multiplayer, what do you think? Will this balance out any experiential issues, I think it will give people a better chance to learn some of the mechanics of dispatching enemies. As far as kill times though I believe that players will definitely know the difference of how easy it is, but will be intrigued with the options that they have and that they see the enemy utilizing to escape death. With these faster kill times, now that I've begun thinking about it... I just don't know. Thanks for bringing this up, really compelling stuff man.

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                  • Edited by Unisaur 64: 1/15/2014 4:50:31 PM
                    The game isn't even out yet, and people are already worried about the skill-gap. Chill out.

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                    • This has turned into a great thread! Nice to see some posters on both sides of the fence; some even with H:CE experience. My argument is that an FPS that is more based on abilities and gear than the average benefits from much shorter killtimes (or firefight resolution speeds) because makes it easier for the game to be balanced/fun/OP-free. Or in other words it's harder for abilities/gear to provide as much of an advantage if the average kill is short. If the killtimes are too long and abilities/gear aren't perfectly balanced, then there's a lot higher risk of some abilities/gear combination dominating the game. With that being said, if every kill is near instant then engagements become pretty bland usually boils down to who sees who first or who has the better connection. I talk more about that in [url=http://www.bungie.net/en/Forum/Post?id=63076075]this [/url]thread.

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                      • It's all about the speed of the game. If destiny is THAT much faster than Halo, more like COD, the competitive aspect will be lost. If it is a new balance that FPS gameplay has not yet seen, it just might work. And I have faith in Bungie.

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                        • Matchmaking

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                          • i approve of this post. well done.

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                            • This is a tough topic to discuss right now. Mostly due to the fact that we have barely [i]seen[/i] anything from Destiny's competitive multiplayer. If you ignore that fact however, and think about the developer we're dealing with, you kind of begin to slowly stop worrying about it. I mean, Bungie developed the pinnacle of multiplayer combat, better than any game on the market, and I'm sure they're definitely keeping that same formula in mind for Destiny. I personally am not worried [i]too[/i] much about it, but it definitely is a lingering thought in my mind..... Be Brave.

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                              • This was well worth the read. I honestly hope Destiny has the multiplayer mechanics you hit in your post I.e precision, headshots, and reaction time over who-sees-who first.

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                                • I'm glad users like you still exist, you're far and few in-between. Apparently you're an elitist if you favor actual skill gap in this "pat everyone on the back" generation. Instead of leveling up skill through play time and competition, games now offer alternatives which are in turn variables. As time goes on games seem to cram more and more variables in, thus making for random and messy gameplay that can't be controlled. It's all done to garner a few extra sales and make titles more "accessible", however if the game isn't named COD that type of "gamer" isn't going to bite anyway. In turn all you're doing is exiling your loyal fan base who would not only play the game at launch, but support it through tournaments and actual play time. Destiny will be an amazing game, Bungie has proven this with Halo Reach. However I'm holding my breath in regards to the multiplayer until it's in my hands, though everything they've said thus far says it'll be anything but competitive. Less is more, though they keep going in the opposite direction. I'm sure it'll be fun, but it won't be that raw experience players like us are looking for. Sure a game can have a clean core, though we shouldn't have to wade through settings, bloom percentages, armor tweaks and other such elements in order to make it play cleanly. Besides, when this isn't the focus nearly the entire community will play in the default manner, so it's all for naught. I'll only add one thing in regards to your quick kill statement and that is CE. I'm sure you know where I'm going with this, but if done like the original Halo pistol, fast kills could work. It was a quick sure kill, though much different than the quick kills found in twitch shooters of today (which require the player to see the other player first more so than have an accurate shot). CE had bullet lag, this forced players to lead their shot. This made a three shot difficult and immediately separated good players from bad. Regardless I doubt we'll see anything like this, they've already added iron sights and such which is the opposite direction of a jump shot, leading, etc. Lastly, I know I talked about not having to wade through countless options to access a good core, but Halo 4 AGL settings are decent. A four shot BR with zero bloom makes for some satisfying BR battles. It's not the Halo 2 that I grew up with, though it's a solid game and arguably the best since under such a setting. It's better than the mess that was Reach multiplayer with it's 100% bloom, 85% bloom and zero bloom playlists. The entire core of the game was all over the place and needed legitimate editing to make feasible, where at least every play list in Halo 4 is a four shot BR with zero bloom. Hopefully Halo 5's multiplayer can give us what we'd like, they've already employed players like Neighbor over at 343 to help streamline the competitive aspects, they're actually taking the core community seriously for once. Surely it'll equate to something decent, more so than another variable fest at least. Anyhow, those are my observations and legitimate concerns. I'll still hold out hope and if it's not a competitive game, I'm sure I'll be able to enjoy it for what it is at the very least.

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                                  • [quote]unless you're in Halo 4, but I prefer to deny that that game even exists[/quote] agreed [quote]Call of Duty, headshots have almost no bearing on gameplay at all[/quote] i call bullshit [quote] I have played a lot of CoD, and I can tell you that no one makes a conscience effort to go for headshots[/quote] i too have played my fair share of CoD, and i can tell you, from experience that this is not true. i always made an effort to go for headshots, and i usually got them. making a good amount of my kills one shot. that being said, i also used a lot of spray and pray weapons to achieve these headshots (like the F2000 in MW2). but my favorite weapon, which i never sprayed with , was the WA2000. i almost always got headshots, and if i didnt i would fire again, at their head and usually get the kill with the second shot which was a headshot about 75% of the time. i think Bungie is capable of making a game with a clear skill gap, even Reach, which was much more accessible to newer players than previous halo games still had a definitive skill gap. i trust Bungie.

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                                  • Sounds like your doubting Bungie.. they got it bro.

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                                    • Good thing real life might have no bearing on how being shot might work in a game. I generally use a sniper rifle in CoD and go for head/torso shots unless time constrained obviously. Well in real life I'm fairly certain in the battlefield a round from a sniper rifle in the head or chest will likely result in a near instant death, if not a probable death is assured. With that being said high tech armor might withstand more shots, but who knows. Now please argue how games are not real life so I cannot give a damn.

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                                      • I completely agree. I absolutely love how Halo is set up with the recharging shields. They're bullet sponges and it creates a very fun and engaging combat. Unlike in realistic shooters where you just fire 2 bullets and kill someone. Also, something else I would like to add is firing from the hip. In Halo, you can fire from the hip and headshot people. But in almost every other game, you can never go for headshots while hip firing. They force you to ADS, but when you ADS you move so slow and can't dodge bullets... it just sucks in my opinion. I like strafing to dodge shots and jumping and lobing grenades. I really really hope Destiny's multiplayer has fun, lengthy battles like Halo. If it's like CoD, I'll probably not even play the competitive multiplayer much.

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                                      • Well I have a feeling that using the [u]individuality[/u] of the guardians will play a larger role in multiplayer than in Halo. Where say that all we got i particular was our standard spartan all the same shielding and weapon damage all around, whether it was a BR or a Spartan Laser pointed at you you have an idea of what's coming next. But from what I've read, the guardian that you play as during your campaign is the same in the multiplayer. There are the supers, grenades, and foci that in team deathmatch variants especially that can change the course of the match. Those superior and exotic weapons will stand out the most and in destiny multiplayer you'll be seeing heavy ammo instead of those heavy weapons, which will mean always a new threat and something different based on how developed the skill trees are for the weapons and armor. In destiny I'm expecting our shields to be slightly un equal, as I believe Bakken had said the titan will be slightly harder to kill than the warlock and the hunter. And it was only described that if you catch a player completely off guard, he's going down. As far as those faster kill times I doubt that they would make it as fast as CoD, but by adding all these new options to take an enemy out it gives more umph to cut the duration of a match. Bungie can balance it out somehow.

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