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#Halo

3/20/2011 6:34:53 PM
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Super Marathon

Does anyone actually know the true differences between Super Marathon and Marathon and M2D? I've seen multiple times that there is some different weapon placements, modified levels of the game, and different AI on some levels, but I've never actually seen someone clearly point out the differences between the game on the Mac and Super Marathon, on either game. If you have no clue what I am talking about, Super Marathon was essentially Bungie's first console game, which was on the notorious [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Bandai_Pippin]Apple Pippin.[/url] And for those that don't know, Super Marathon is rarest game to find on the Pippin, and Pippin games are rare in general, let alone Pippin consoles. I seen two Super Marathons on ebay in the past 4 years, they went for about $700+, which is a little out of my price range. I've been looking for a copy somewhere not ebay for a couple of years now so I could buy a Pippin and maybe find out the answers to my questions by myself, but with no luck. So if anyone knows the true differences, I wouldn't mind knowing. Or if anyone knows who has a copy of the game, I wouldn't mind knowing that either :)

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  • Bump. [spoiler]By the way, anyone know where I could get a copy of Super Marathon for the Pippin? I'm willing to put down a fair bit of money.[/spoiler]

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] cameo_cream Dunno... never thought about it.[/quote]Have you played it?

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  • Dunno... never thought about it.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Placid Platypus Overall, these changes seem to have been made in order to facilitate M1 and M2's smooth operation on the Pippin system. Both games were native to the Classic Mac OSs (7 through 9) which were the basis for the Pippin's architecture, though were not fully reproduced thereon. Hope this helped.[/quote]Yeah, you make a valid point. I'm just wondering in response to making the game work smoothly, what changes they made in the game, and what levels were "modified", and what those modifications were. I've yet to see any articles or videos that clearly states any of this.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Switchfoot4 When I say that the levels are modified . . .[/quote] See, that's where the confusion came in. By saying "modified levels", you seem to be talking about the levels themselves, or the data tied to the Map file seen in the Mac and WIN95 versions of the game, hence my assumption that is what you wanted explained. What you are really asking about is modifications to the overall software package. With that cleared up, hopefully I can offer something more pursuant to the intended discussion. As you pointed out, there are a few articles online that discuss this. After perusing a few, the complementary points indicate changes to the source code so as to disable pattern buffer save points, increase text size in the terminal layouts, and the possible implementation of 'network' settings. While the first two points can only be manipulated with changes to the program itself, the 'network' settings options can be toyed with through the editing of whatever Pippin file-set correlates to the Mac/WIN95 M2 Physics file (to explain: the retail releases of the Marathon series, once installed, had certain files always associated with them to store and handle game data; these being Physics, Map, Sound, Images, Shapes, and Music. It was from these files most edits could be made in Forge or Anvil). Furthermore, the files that govern the Shapes, Physics, and Map data direct how network games are set-up in relation to a given map/level. This is best explain through Forge and Anvil themselves, but if you want, and are willing to wait until tomorrow evening, I could upload some screen-grabs of the relevant menus. Overall, these changes seem to have been made in order to facilitate M1 and M2's smooth operation on the Pippin system. Both games were native to the Classic Mac OSs (7 through 9) which were the basis for the Pippin's architecture, though were not fully reproduced thereon. Hope this helped. [Edited on 03.20.2011 8:59 PM PDT]

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] spartain ken 15 That sounds cool, I am sure Bungie has a few copies...[/quote]Yeah, I was wondering that myself. I've only read that there was one in the Bungie lobby, behind glass the glass. If I had known that before I had gone, I would have definitely liked to have seen it. But this [url=http://marathon.bungie.org/story/_images/bungiewestshelf.jpg]makes[/url] me wonder if Bungie is sitting on some behind close doors. This picture was taken at the Bungie West offices back in 1999. But if Bungie is sitting on [url=http://twitpic.com/44skxm/full]what looks to be[/url] about 20 of these rare TFL limited editions, kind of makes me think that they might have a couple of copies of Super Marathon. I would definitely up the ante from a couple of wristbands, to throwing down a few hundred dollars to the Red Cross Japan donations if I could get my hands on a copy. I rather have that then having like 200 wristbands sitting on my desk, lol. [Edited on 03.20.2011 7:42 PM PDT]

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  • That sounds cool, I am sure Bungie has a few copies...

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  • I really think we are on two completely different pages. I'm not talking about specifically Waterloo Waterpark, or any one level in particular. I'm well aware of the differences between M2 changes from PC to Mac. I do believe that the majority of the M2 levels are 100% completely the same from M2 Mac and those from PC, to the Pippin. I'm also [i]not[/i] talking about the actual structure of the level in itself. When I say that the levels are modified, I mean that the level may have some sandbox modifications (probably should have been more clearer on that). Such as moved/removed weapon placement and ammo, different AI from the PC/Mac levels, and other small things that I would care about. Like for example take this quote from that article. [quote]In Marathon when you play in Network mode, the game functions almost like normal. The exceptions are: 1. All pattern buffers (save points) are disabled 2. When you die, the game world does not reset 3. You have a chance to drop all of your gear. 4. Network only items appear in levels. I could verify all but item #4. I just didn't remember Marathon well enough to find a network only item. [/quote] I would truly like to know in particular if number 4 is true. I would also like to know if all the AI spawns stay consistent through out the entire game, and if there are any weapon/ammo changes. Thanks for your help anyways.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Switchfoot4 Like I said, the only way I could really tell (and believe) if there are differences if I had a copy of the game itself, or if I had substantial proof. [/quote] How about trusting someone who owns both (WIN95 and Mac that is), and has played both? But hey, this is the internet, so I know you can't do that. Pending your trust, I'll offer three points of information that will hopefully make things clear. 1.) The WIN95 M2 maps are the only known M2 maps that have been modified in any way, shape, or form and have gone on to be published inside a retail release of the game. No other maps have been identified and if any exist are unknown to the Marathon community as a whole. If there are modified maps in the Pippin version, they are identical to those from the WIN95 M2 port. 2.) As supplement to point 1, I've uploaded screen-grabs of the auto-maps for the first level of M2, Waterloo Waterpark, for both the [url=http://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab237/Placd_Platypus/WaterlooWIN95.png]WIN95[/url] and [url=http://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab237/Placd_Platypus/WaterlooMAC.png]Mac[/url] versions from Forge. You'll see more polygons in the WIN95 version (the mass in the north-west corner is a secret area that recreates portions of M1's Arrival level, and also note the added polys to the northeast of the room where you pick up the assault rifle). Waterloo Waterpark is probably the most modified of the M2 levels, with the remainder largely possessing minor cosmetic differences. A few of these differences were catalogued for the Marathon's Story Page by Simon Brownlee [url=http://marathon.bungie.org/story/win95m2/win95m2page1.html]here[/url]. 3.) In viewing the following [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8IOz2Pi168]play-through[/url] of Waterloo Waterpark on the Pippin, you can see how the map is wholly similar to that found in the Mac release. No modifications are present. This points to the fact that the Pippin M2 (as with the XBLA port) is a direct port of the Mac version, minus some purely technical differences present to allow it to run on the console After this, I'm not sure I can help you any more, even if I were to try. Unless, of course, you'd be willing to take a few things on faith and experience. [Edited on 03.20.2011 2:24 PM PDT]

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Placid Platypus [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Switchfoot4 And that the game doesn't actually contain any M2 PC maps, but modified Mac levels.[/quote] Actually, they are the same thing. The M2 Mac levels are the WIN95 levels, minus a few very minor changes. Everything I've seen suggests the WIN95 level ports were simply used in Super Marathon's M2 as well; they are the "modified Mac levels" you see references to.[/quote]Yeah, I would like to believe that, but it's hard for me to believe it. Every article I've seen the reviewer always seems to state that there is something unique about some of the levels. So it kind of makes me think if it is another modified level of the Macs, different from the PC levels. Like I said, the only way I could really tell (and believe) if there are differences if I had a copy of the game itself, or if I had substantial proof.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Placid Platypus [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Potomo Though I haven't read this yet I hope it will help: [url=http://blog.freeverse.com/monkeyblog/archives/2010/06/super-marathon.php]Info on the game[/url][/quote] That was a great read, thanks for finding the link and posting it here! It's always comforting to see some people enjoy the older games so much, they are ready to go to quite extreme lengths to experience them.[/quote] No problem. I'm just glad I found out about this. The more information on Marathon I find the happier I am lol [Edited on 03.20.2011 12:24 PM PDT]

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Switchfoot4 And that the game doesn't actually contain any M2 PC maps, but modified Mac levels.[/quote] Actually, they are the same thing. The M2 Mac levels are the WIN95 levels, minus a few very minor changes. Everything I've seen suggests the WIN95 level ports were simply used in Super Marathon's M2 as well; they are the "modified Mac levels" you see references to. [Edited on 03.20.2011 12:22 PM PDT]

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Potomo Though I haven't read this yet I hope it will help: [url=http://blog.freeverse.com/monkeyblog/archives/2010/06/super-marathon.php]Info on the game[/url][/quote] That was a great read, thanks for finding the link and posting it here! It's always comforting to see some people enjoy the older games so much, they are ready to go to quite extreme lengths to experience them. Also, who knew Hippieman worked on the XBLA port of M2? Last I heard of this guy, he was helping maintain the [url=http://archives.bungie.org/]Archives[/url]. [Edited on 03.20.2011 12:29 PM PDT]

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Placid Platypus Super Marathon was a direct port of Marathon and Marathon 2: Durandal; both included in one title for the Pippin. No major differences are present from the Mac games aside from those small changes to a few levels also present in the WIN95 version of Durandal, and the lack of background music in M1. [/quote]I should of actually said something about that, but I've actually read places where people have referred to that article and said what he was saying was actually wrong. And that the game doesn't actually contain any M2 PC maps, but modified Mac levels. Edit: Actually the source saying it's a modified Mac map I got from here. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Potomo As for the differences I can't really help as this is the first time I've heard of this console or this version of Marathon. Though I haven't read this yet I hope it will help: [url=http://blog.freeverse.com/monkeyblog/archives/2010/06/super-marathon.php]Info on the game[/url][/quote] Since I only know of 1 article that says that it's from M2 PC, and another one saying that it is a modified Mac map, I guess I can't know for sure, unless I had my hands on one. It's really hard to find sources for this game. [Edited on 03.20.2011 12:11 PM PDT]

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  • For those interested in seeing what the game case looked like here it is: [url=http://blog.freeverse.com/monkeyblog/boxes.png]Game Case[/url] As for the differences I can't really help as this is the first time I've heard of this console or this version of Marathon. Though I haven't read this yet I hope it will help: [url=http://blog.freeverse.com/monkeyblog/archives/2010/06/super-marathon.php]Info on the game[/url]

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  • Super Marathon was a direct port of Marathon and Marathon 2: Durandal; both included in one title for the Pippin. No major differences are present from the Mac games aside from the contention that those small changes to a few levels also present in the WIN95 version of Durandal occur, and the lack of background music in M1. Hamish was able to ask Matt Soell about this [url=http://marathon.bungie.org/story/newjuly-aug98.html]back in the day[/url] (scroll down to the news for April 4, 1998): [quote] Regarding Super Marathon for the Pippin I asked Matt Soell , Director of Customer Support at Bungie, whether it was a direct port? As in no changes made to terminals, maps, gameplay etc. He replied as follows: "I believe so. There was only one person assigned to the port (Jason Regier) and he didn't have the time or inclination to mess around with it too much as he was needed on the Myth team. The hardest part was figuring out a way to make that wacky AppleJack controller handle all the various commands."[/quote] In a separate IRC post, Alex Rosenberg stated: [quote] The game consists of a M1 and M2 with an interface for picking which game to launch. A few M2 levels are different, but I believe that they are the same differences found in M2 for the PC. Both games had changes to the terminal renderer to increase font size; even with convolution hardware, 9 point text is hard to read on a TV. Several features were ripped out to conserve memory. For example, the music in M1 is gone.[/quote] [Edited on 03.20.2011 2:23 PM PDT]

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  • $700 really? Huh. Well I'm not entirely sure of the differences, anyway. First console I owned was an N64.

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