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Edited by Flywheel: 10/23/2015 2:46:46 PM
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Lore: New Eris/Queen/Savathun Theory

Everyone is debating whether Eris is secretly serving Mara Sov or Savathun. I'm calling it now... the answer is both. Because Mara Sov *is* Savathun. May I direct your attention to the following observations: ------------------------------------------------------------- 1. Savathun said "we need to become different." We don't yet know just how different she meant. Her brood could be the thing that "happened" to the Awoken. 2. Savathun infiltrated the Harmony with secret covens of witches in disguise, as the Queen is possibly now doing to Guardians. 3. Cayde-6 describes Mara Sov as a master of manipulation. Savathun's "nature" is cunning. They have remarkably similar personalities. 4. As Mara Sov tricks her enemies into fighting each other, so did Savathun trick Crota into letting the Vex invade Oryx's dimension. 5. Similarly, we know Mara Sov plotted to kill Oryx before he entered the system. Crota's death, spurred on by Eris, drew Oryx into a battle he could lose. Once again, she uses other enemies to try to dispatch Oryx, and Crota was part of the trap. 6. Awoken have an unknown connection to the Darkness and Void magic superweapons. This would explain it. 7. Mara Sov had no fear of material death at the hands of Oryx's ship, because of a greater plan. Kinda like how Savathun has been killed and returned from her Throneworld hundreds of times, if not thousands. Plus, the Queen's priestesses noted that the defeat would be "here, now" and not "there, then." The Queen's brother also felt her presence after her supposed demise. 8. It would give symmetry to the plot that you know developers love. Exo and Vex have history together: One playable race and one race of darkness. Now the Awoken and Hive do too. That leaves the Fallen and Cabal as victims. 9. "I am noble too, Lord of Wolves. Starlight was my mother, and my father was the Dark." I.E. her teacher Taox (neutral) and the Deep (darkness). 10. By claiming Willbreaker, Eris might be claiming all tribute sent to Oryx. In this case, each kill brings Mara Sov closer to returning from her Throneworld, at which time she would claim Oryx's ability to Take. 11. Mara Sov helped us clear the Black Garden, possibly for the same reason Savathun tried to subvert the Ana-Harmony. "Our gods should be ours alone." 12. Releasing Skolas, then letting us recapture him would have given her a chance to observe whether Guardians were ready for Oryx. If Mara is Savathun, she needed a paracausal weapon from either the Sky or the Deep to end him. We are paracausal, which is why the Vex can't simulate Guardians. 13. The Prison of Elders could be an arena of survival of the fittest, of sword-logic. Just as Oryx, Xivu Arath and Savathun constantly warred on one another, so did the Awoken Queen set her prisoners against one another, while she tested their weaknesses. 14. Variks asks: "Why do the Awoken whisper to the stars and listen for the whisper back, the voices from the Jovians, the song in the dark?" So they are in communication with a dark patron, the Jovians who serve the Nine. The Nine have been described as Leviathan intelligences at the Jupiter system, not too dissimilar from the Worms of Fundament. 15. Ghost Fragment - Awoken 2 refers to "singers" and "her" at the birth of an Awoken. There is another race that has "singers": the Hive. 16. Ghost Fragment - Fallen 4: "I AM LORD OF WOLVES, the Kell sends. YOU ARE AN EMPTY THING WITH TWO DEAD SOULS." 17. "The Awoken became my family." 18. Why do Awoken witches cover their eyes? Maybe because they have 3 of them like Eris. Less likely, but food for thought.
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  • Edited by zxionisus: 9/29/2017 7:36:30 PM
    Additionally, there is an interesting story in the grimoire about Savathun seemingly working with us to overthrow Oryx in XLI: Dereadnaught, as stated: To make his ship, Oryx scrimshawed one piece of Akka, who was dead but far from gone. He stole the Hammer of Xivu Arath and the Scalpel of Savathûn and he armored his ship in baneful armor. When Oryx had built his Dreadnaught, he pushed his throne world inside out, so that it bled into the material space of the Dreadnaught. They were coterminous and allied, his ship and his sin. The Dreadnaught was within the throne of Oryx, but the throne of Oryx was the Dreadnaught. Aiat! This required a verse from the Tablets of Ruin. The whole Court worked together to push Oryx’s throne inside out. This was a day of joyous violence, and all of Oryx’s broods mark this holiday as Eversion Day, which is celebrated by turning things inside out. Sayeth Oryx, Go out into the universe, my court Gather tribute for me. Send it home to my ship. When I call you, walk up that tribute to my court. [b]I will prepare for long voyages — [I am Savathûn, insidious] Into the war — [I graffiti this notice for you] Into the Deep — [These Books are full of lies!][/b] Now Oryx’s throne was safe from incursion, because it moved so nimbly. Oryx attacked the Harmonious Flotilla Invincible, who guarded the Nicha Thought-ship. When the Flotilla surrounded his Dreadnaught, Oryx put his sword into the hull, and he used the power of the Deep (and the clever systems his daughters built) to push his throne-world out into mere reality. By wrath and confidence he filled space with an egg of his throne. It swelled up like a ghost star to smash the Harmonious Flotilla Invincible. Oryx broke the last word off their name. In the Nicha Thought-ship, Oryx hoped to find the location of the Gift Mast, which had been left behind by the Traveler. Oryx wanted to eat it. But the Thought-ship was a trap. Upon it was Quria, Blade Transform. -------------------------------------- Notice how Quria is mentioned? See the reference from Savathun wherein she states that she "graffiti(s) this notice for (us)?

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  • Edited by zxionisus: 9/29/2017 7:23:37 PM
    Just wanted to revive this old thread. I've had this theory as well since 2015. Now that D2 is out, I believe it even more. Uldren is likely leading the Fallen through the new House of Dusk. Savathun is expanding, but consolidating, power. She has Taken, Hive, and now some Vex, and it makes sense that Uldren would be bringing in the Fallen. With the Vex, especially Quria, she may now have a loophole around her worm dilemma, because she may be able to affect time itself. If you go to Io, for example, there are Taken orbs that repeat "Savathun" and suggest that we are being spied on. Ghost mentions that they are communicating through the orbs and that he saw eyes staring back and heard voices. Eris Morn received a third eye and powers to hide/survive the hive by an unknown being, whom I believe to have been Savathun. At the end of the Taken King story line, Eris refers to "My queen", and it would make sense that she was speaking to Mara Sov and Savathun, who gave Eris her powers - one being. We already know that Eris was working with Mara at the time she battled Oryx. She was playing chess - by sacrificing her mortal body (Mara), she was simply transferred back to her thrown world where she could live again. At the same time, Oryx became vulnerable and his army was partially laid waste by his own weapon. As an aside, I believe it would be extremely cool to have a raid boss like Mara Sov. We know that the hive gods can take whatever form they choose, why not a sexy awoken queen?

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  • Edited by Moot: 4/1/2016 4:53:27 PM
    As far as theories go, I really like this one. Nice stuff! And yes I know the post's old as hell.

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  • Beautifully laid out. I'm inclined to believe you nailed it

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  • Very cool theory. I'm not convinced yet...but I think it's pretty likely. And very cool. Would make a huge twist.

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  • They both have covens as well. The more I think about it the more I think you're right. Something happened when Savathun drunk the Gift Mast because it was pure light. Before Oryx shoots the dreadnought, there is a look of sadness and of love on her face not fear.

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  • That's actually a really solid theory. It has its holes (that everyone else has posted), but the parallels between Mara and Savathun are still pretty strong. I guess by that logic, Shaxx would be Xivu Arath, and maybe the Exo Stranger would be Oryx?

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    • Bump for acceptability. All plausible concepts

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    • I accept that this theory has validity but I really hope that they don't make Mara sov a villain. It would just be so stereotypical to have another female turned traitorous like Kerrigan from Starcraft. There is a book of sorrow that I believe mentions that savathun started to ask oryx if they had done the right thing. Wouldn't it be a much better plot twist if Mara sov was savathun, but she actually wasn't out to simply kill the traveller and the guardians? If she left oryx to become different, maybe she has had a change of heart and wants something different? There are so many entries where the queen is painted as solely having concerns for the awoken. She's interested in the darkness, and distrustful of the traveller. Just because sov sounds a little like savathun doesn't necessarily mean they are the same person. Time will tell.

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      • POE does sound like her Court, lots of similarities here, I still don't trust Eris...

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      • Love it. Instantly added to my overarching theory that somehow makes sense in my head.

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      • Awesome theory. I'm hooked.

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      • Bump

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      • What if the Ravenous Heart was, in fact, Oryx's ability to tribute to other hive ancients? What if this ability passed on from the Ravenous Heart to Eris and finally to our so beloved weapon, the Touch of Malice, given to us from Eris? What if Eris actually made the Touch of Malice for us to use it and made tributes with it to free Savanuth/the Queen crom her ThroneWorld? Jesus christ, we've been played guardians o.0

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        • 12. Releasing Skolas, then letting us recapture him gave her a chance to observe whether Guardians were ready for Oryx. She needed a paracausal weapon from either the Sky or the Deep to end him. Xur was the one that released Skolas though. And he is an agent of the nine, a different faction. Is it stated somewhere or hinted, that they are connected in this plot?

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          • Even if this were correct, I don't believe Eris would have knowledge of the Queen's true identity. The Touch of Malice grimoire strongly implies that her hatred for the Hive is fully legitimate, while also hinting at something dark.

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          • I doubt they honestly put this much depth into it considering the current state of the story in destiny. But it's a great theory they should hire you as the writer!

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          • Crap....so now we are playing game of thrones..?

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          • Not bad.

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          • And you need Pocket Infinity to get Sleeper Simulant. Honestly. Enough with the shitty theories.

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            • Fantastic theory. But wouldn't the queen have been consumed by her worm by now?

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              • Ok, where did you hide the destiny bible? We all know you have it.

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                • Sorry if I sound stupid but who is savathun?

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                  • Sorry I just don't buy it, it feels like you're trying to hard to convince me, the most simple answer is usually the right answer, this is to convoluted.

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                    • Couple of problems. Mara Sov did not release Skolas. Xur did, by the order of the Nine. Secondly, the Queen (IF she was Savathun), is not in her Throne World, as Uldren can feel Mara's pull.

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                      • One of the few solid theories out there. I'll make sure to share this where it applies.

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