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originally posted in: Let us do raids solo!
8/27/2014 9:02:31 PM
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Im completely for MM and being able to enter a raid with whatever party size we want but the content is designed from the ground up to be done by 6 people if you do it with just 4 then its a damn achievement on your part but the content shouldnt be nerfed to allow you to do it easily with 4 [quote]if we want to just raid for like, 30 minutes[/quote] this is like saying I want to only play 3mins of CTF your missing the point of the content you should expect a raid to last 3hrs like you expect a CTF game to last 10mins (i think never really timed it) but we shouldnt have to waste 20mins looking for partners if we dont mind who joins us just to fill up numbers or feel like taking it on as a group of 4 good friends
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  • Missed the point completely

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  • im guessing your point is all content should be do able solo? like with halo the halo campaigns would scale difficulty to the number of players? well either that or a bad attempt at sarcasm

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  • that my friend, was sarcasm

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  • bad attempt as they are legit reasons people want solo raids or better described suicide runs just to how far they can get and there are legit reasons to want split screen mid section goes into whining and a good example of a negative side to MM as people like this exist who would join then leave if it looks like its going south but the last bit is good sarcasm gotta admit that =)

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  • to call that legit... i can't do that. Especially if you think at the backlash you would have in adding a option where it's 100% impossible to go behind a point even with uberskill and uberequip. You are still thinking at raids as strike missions For the split screen there are indeed legit reasons to ASK for a split screen while there are no legit reasons to CLAIM split screen

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  • i dont mean its an option meant to be played for a normal players but bungie just not go out of its way to stop people doing it like with firefights you can try it solo...... besides the hardcores/lets plays could have fun with it like someone tries the challenge and cant get past the 1st encounter but someone else is good enough to reach the 1st boss then die every single time against it im guessing theres technical issues with adding splitscreen

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  • Edited by LetBloodline: 8/28/2014 9:58:58 AM
    [quote]i dont mean its an option meant to be played for a normal players but bungie just not go out of its way to stop people doing it like with firefights you can try it solo...... besides the hardcores/lets plays could have fun with it[/quote] First it's possible to do it, ask 5 ppl to enter with you and leave. Second firefights are beatable solo, raids are not. Third there is no fun in getting to a point where you are killed 100% from a mechanic that require more players

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  • bordering impossible on legendary solo it is designed for a 4 man team just like raids are designed for a 6 man team the fun wouldnt be getting to a point and dieing a 100% it would be in proving you got further than your friends have you never played the impossible game with mates after a few drinks? none of us got to the end the fun was in trying to get further than your friends

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  • Edited by LetBloodline: 8/28/2014 11:49:05 AM
    [quote]bordering impossible on legendary solo it is designed for a 4 man team just like raids are designed for a 6 man team[/quote] For what i know it was done so it's not impossibile (surely i can't do it) [quote]the fun wouldnt be getting to a point and dieing a 100% it would be in proving you got further than your friends[/quote] You can't have this. You get to the first mechanics thar require 2 players (let's say 2 switch to activate at same time or 2 platforms you must be on, or a platform that needs x player to be activated) and it's impossibile to progress further. No "i got behind that point", nothing like that. The max you can get is to that point where no matter how skilled you are, you can't pass And again if you want you can do that

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  • [quote]For what i know it was done so it's not impossibile (surely i can't do it)[/quote] im sure before release it seemed impossible to solo yet there are a very few people who can and you don't see in similarities there? [quote]you get to the first mechanics thar require 2 players (let's say 2 switch to activate at same time or 2 platforms you must be on, or a platform that needs x player to be activated)[/quote] please link me to where this feature is shown? at the moment its pure speculation like saying there is a boss where you have to hit 6 weak points at the same time to do damage, there could be for all we know but then there might not be as well but bungie has not revealed or given an example of any part of a raid that would be 100% impossible for fewer players only stating that the difficulty is meant for 6 players [quote]And again if you want you can do that[/quote] ye cause i remember to play firefight solo I needed 3 players to join with me then quit.... its just bureaucracy in the game stopping it I cant understand why you are defending bureaucracy in destiny.........

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  • Edited by LetBloodline: 8/28/2014 12:22:28 PM
    [quote]im sure before release it seemed impossible to solo yet there are a very few people who can and you don't see in similarities there?[/quote] No, completely different type of challenge [quote]but bungie has not revealed or given an example of any part of a raid that would be 100% impossible for fewer players only stating that the difficulty is meant for 6 players[/quote] Wrong. They said that raids are not like strikes where if one player is gone you can still go on. In raids if someone is missing you are dead [quote]ye cause i remember to play firefight solo I needed 3 players to join with me then quit.... its just bureaucracy in the game stopping it I cant understand why you are defending bureaucracy in destiny.........[/quote] If you want you can. It can't be a officially supported feature cuz it's impossible to progress past a certain point. [quote]please link me to where this feature is shown? at the moment its pure speculation like saying there is a boss where you have to hit 6 weak points at the same time to do damage, there could be for all we know but then there might not be as well[/quote] Please link me where i find evidence that raid can be played solo and can be cleared in MM even if bungie said that's not the case

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  • [quote]No, completely different type of challenge[/quote] FPS, made by bungie, designed for a group, requires a long amount of time far longer than any PvP....... yep totally different [quote]Wrong. They said that raids are not like strikes where if one player is gone you can still go on. In raids if someone is missing you are dead[/quote] so a group of 6 that can complete raids on hard mode plays on normal with only 5 would they fail? and if so on what bit and how do you know? and you do know the risk of taking devs by their word? alien colonial marines ring any bells? [quote]Wrong. They said that raids are not like strikes where if one player is gone you can still go on. In raids if someone is missing you are dead[/quote] again why? sure the last bit at the highest level maybe unreasonably difficult but up until then would still be fun [quote]If you want you can. It can't be a officially supported feature cuz it's impossible to progress past a certain point.[/quote] [i]I can melee enemies therefore its officially supported so if I cant complete the game with just using melee then destiny is cheap and too difficult and must be nerfed[/i] just because something is possible doesn't mean it has to lead to success thats kinda what makes challenges fun having all different possibilities and tools for you to work with but if you want bungie to hold peoples hands then lets get rid of customizable options because people may build there characters wrong or equip them with the wrong weapons [quote]Please link me where i find evidence that raid can be played solo and can be cleared in MM even if bungie said that's not the case[/quote] im asking you to show proof for your assumption that that they will be some kind of puzzle that requires 6 people to press a button at the same time but ill bite [b]I CANT[/b] because bungie hasn't released any footage and MM players wont have a chance to try [b]SO[/b] ill do the next best thing and look back on FPS gameplay and look for examples of coop gametypes that were impossible with matchmaking......... firefight thats possible PvP thats possible PvP objective (so a focus on team work....) thats possible campaign thats possible lets open it up to 3rd person shooters ME3 multiplier thats possible ALL of GOW including horde mode thats possible you know I think im beginning to see a pattern appearing between FPS/shooters in general and the ability of randomers to work together as a team and now you come back with "raids have never been done before in a FPS (borderlands doesnt count)" and I ask for proof of what would make raids so different as to break this long history of FPS players being able to wing teamwork as they go then you say again "you show me proof that raids are possible in MM" and ill point you to this list again as my proof by correlation

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  • They said their are bringing MMO raids in FPS They said that what they do is completely different from what we have in any other shooters Destiny take from P2P MMORPG like FFXIV ARR the model of endgame and give different names and this is a fact That model NEED a timesinker and a challenge presented in raids or would fail No FPS level can be a timesinker and challenge vaguely similar in quality/duration to raids Is they get raids the choice to no MM is needed If they get raids things fall into place automatically like the 16h and still fail from pro team Many hints in various interview for MMO raid idea and not FPS level If I'm right everything fall into place perfectly with what we know and what they told us and experience with past content is to be searched in MMORPG Raiding experience not in pasts FPS If they lie we have a mess of things out of place but your point could be valid Your scenario make no sense so I still will believe in what they told us since it have no incongruences so far They could fail, yes but at least in intention they are 100% getting raids from MMO. Go search there for past reference for comparison (tweaking it accordingly to the impact due to change genre and style. Easy to know what left out and what can be brought in, harder to say what will be added new) and be sure that past reference in FPS is worthless since for what they said they are doing something never done before in a FPS

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  • bringing MMO elements in raids...... just say that part again Massive Multiplayer Online elements in a 6 player raids......... [quote]That model NEED a timesinker and a challenge presented in raids or would fail[/quote] so raids in destiny need to waste our time searching the forums or they will fail? if they need to present a challenge the content should be that challenge not the ability to access the content cause news flash if people dont play raids they will [b]FAIL[/b] listen to yourself talking about MMO elements unless raids appear in the shared world its gameplay has nothing to do with the definition of a MMO unless the gameplay radically changes it is still a FPS by every single definition of the word you would do better describing destiny raids as taking a gametype once exclusive to MMO's [quote]Your scenario make no sense [/quote] what that bungie made a game thats fun to play? where are you getting this idea that if people enjoy playing raids for the sake of playing (like you know most games have been doing since forever) regardless if they complete it or not then raids will be a fail? [quote]raids have never been done before in a FPS[/quote] [quote] past reference in FPS is worthless since for what they said they are doing something never done before in a FPS[/quote] Called it and now....... "I ask for proof of what would make raids so different as to break this long history of FPS players being able to wing teamwork as they go?"

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  • Edited by CheckForAPulse: 8/29/2014 12:27:13 AM
    What I think will happen, is all these guys who ruthlessly defend no-MM and any other changes to raids talking about how hard they will be, and speculating the time it will take (based on real MMO games) will end up incredibly disappointed due to the fact they have overthought it and inflated their expectations, and will expect far more than what will end up delivered on release. If you look closer into the claims of the guild taking 16 hours, it was actually 4 seperate attempts at around 4 hours each, apparently it takes the devs about 6 hours a run when they are testing and messing with stuff. Once people know what they are doing the develpers themselves have said in one of the videos it should take [i]about[/i] 3 hours per run. Fact of the matter is, this [i][b]isn't[/b][/i] an MMO game, and with only 2 abilities to juggle, it can't play like one. There isn't as much to perfect as a 25 man team mashing a keyboard like a piano to activate spells as soon as the cooldown ends etc, so Destiny is unlikely to require the amount of finesse a purpose built MMO game does. This part is more aimed at the people so heavily opposed to any changes to raids; I think the reason you guys oppose any changes to the raids so ruthlessly is because you want to be part of a niche in the community who can go and say you've finished it, and that if other people have more access and can do it your achievement will seem diminished in your own eyes once a larger portion of the community have access and can finish. While I won't personally ever want to attempt solo, why not? It doesn't affect me so I could care less if another person wants to and fails. Same goes for matchmaking, does it affect you guys in your static parties if I have 4 people online who want to go in with me, and need to make up the last 2? No, so why shouldn't I be able to? My point is, if you aren't [b]directly[/b] affected, why be so heavily opposed?

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  • queue "implementing MM will cause raids to be nerfed" yet another speculative assumption

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  • You must be a troll Raids in FFXIV ARR have 8 man team. Yet they still are good raids. The "it is not massive" argument is ridiculous. Drop it This game being FPS won't prevent them to create a challenge that is more than a simple FPS level but have fights mechanics unique for each boss Lol at "wasting time on forum" as timesinker. Not even worth feed the troll on this What will make a difference from previous FPS experience? Fight mechanics that need a whole new level of cooperation

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  • It's true though. Until you get any form of in-game solution implemented giving you the ability to source people you are left with your friends list which is currently a pain to grow due to no communication, the forums, clans or group system to find the necessary players. Most of these are prodominently outside of the game which is my main problem, rather than actually playing the game itself. The process of finding people shouldn't be a difficult task which basically forces you out of a game to source people, the devs need to think of a better way to streamline this process. There's only so many ways you can point a gun at something in a game and shoot it, I have no doubts this wont be fundamentally different from any other FPS, just with more puzzles to do along the way. Guess we'll see post-release.

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  • I agree that the lack of communication is a flaw and I hope it's fixed. I played the beta and felt lonely and that should not be the case Yet MM is not a solution to raids And trust me, while shooting at someone is the same they can give you all tons of things to do or to watch out for while you are shooting and those are the fight mechanics that make a raid completely different from a standard FPS level

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  • Edited by CheckForAPulse: 8/29/2014 1:52:47 AM
    I understand it will be different and they have attempted to add a lot more depth, but IMO there's only so much variety they can throw at us in a game that's prodominently an FPS. I also agree the game world felt really lonely without any real communication, it makes the game eerily quiet and just makes other players feel like NPCs in the game world. While MM wouldnt necessarily be the magic pill to fix the problems of the lack of communication, I think it would be a good tool to let people see how others play in that type of capacity and build up a more permanant team of people they feel comfortable with. The other idea which gets thrown around a lot of the raid board to source people would also be good except that it opens up the opportunity for elitists to reject anyone who isn't highly skilled which I think is a little unfair. At the end of a day it's a game, it's a shame some guys take it far too seriously and never want to fail or give someone less skilled the opportunity to have a go, forum/clan/group sourcing will also invoke this type of mentality where at least if they can be matchmade they can have a go. That's for the most part why I would personally lean towards the matchmaking, even if the people have little chance of success I think they should at least be given an opportunity to have a go. I just wouldn't agree with this approach if the developers decided to bow to pressure and lower difficulty so it's an easily achieved goal, like other games which have been previously mentioned do.

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  • MM in a community that think "what can they do that we never saw before" will change raids from the best challenge ever saw in a FPS to the most frustrating content existing in any FPS What can they do? Let me trow just one fight mechanic I came out with. The boss point a red laser to a player. If he hides the boss will enrage making cumulative more damage with each normal shot. If you don't hide you get hit by a satellite type attack with a medium area around you that oneshot you but deal shared damage. Boss can point a blue laser just before fire off a rocket that oneshot any player in the radius. If you evade any laser you get to the point that he can oneshot you with random bullet. The solution to this situation is that when he point red laser a party member must stay near you so he won't enrage and the damage get shared between the 2 leaving both alive (or may need 3 ppl) while evading normally blue rays. This means that party must move as groups and not as lone wolfes. And this is just one fight mechanics of that fight. You may need to activate platforms, keep enemies apart from each other, mind enrage timers, shoot multiple target at same time etc etc etc That seem like just shooting to you?

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  • I'll admit a was wrong and there is a bit more they could do than just high hp bosses to eat bullets for 40 minutes. Still we can just agree to disagree on the anti MM thing as we have done for ages though =P

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  • We can agree to disagree since I'm tired to explain the same thing hundred of times, luckily bungie saved his community from it anyway ^^ you will understand it later down the road

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  • [quote]Raids in FFXIV ARR have 8 man team. Yet they still are good raids. The "it is not massive" argument is ridiculous. Drop it[/quote] [quote]you would do better describing destiny raids as taking a gametype once exclusive to MMO's[/quote] [quote]have fights mechanics unique for each boss[/quote] Still waiting on proof how a MM team wont already all know the bosses tactics/weakness or 1 person who does know telling otheres as they enter the room [quote]Lol at "wasting time on forum" as timesinker. Not even worth feed the troll on this[/quote] whoa whoa whoa I thought you were just being stupid but you actually think purposely adding parts into a game that only exist the take up time and are not meant to be fun or build suspense is a good idea??? you just want a game where the raids are not fun but at the end you get loot so you can get better at raids to get more loot to continue playing something that isnt fun? [quote]What will make a difference from previous FPS experience? Fight mechanics that need a whole new level of cooperation[/quote] what makes GoW3 horde 2.0 different? building mechanics to build and fortify your location and if someone is wasting their resources the entire team faces the consequences so you need a "whole new level of cooperation" for all 4 players to build together and spread resources where they are needed still has MM..... you cant win if you dont build as a team but dev's know that if players fail because they didnt work together they will learn for next time and if they dont they will keep dieing til they do learn and people learn common tactics

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