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originally posted in: Raids: What you need to know
8/10/2014 4:17:55 PM
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You need to ground your thinking in some reality. You're only hurting the games longevity with this attitude. Matchmaking would never affect you. As far as people whining about "Nerfing" Raids, please remember that most players will not even visit the forums. They might get a bump from the whole clan BS but the vast majority of people could care less. You also seem to forget that many people are still moving onto new consoles, some people switching console brand for the first time in 8 years. This is already a problem for a lot of people. Then there's the fact that, after almost a year of no AAA games being released, they're suddenly flooding the market this fall/winter meaning the player base will drop further as people move on to other games. That's the thing you really need to understand here: The amount of people playing Raids at the beginning is only a portion of the people who bought the game. The overall number will drop once the average buyer learns of the restrictions to even access the mode. The player base will drop even further once the other titles begin to drop. It's almost comical to think about what it will look like when games like the Division start to populate the market. The point here is the player base is only going to go down, not up. Restricting access to your game at the start is a bad business move if you want it to have longevity and continued support. Players WILL move onto other games that allow them to play the way they want, with the friends they have. It's absurd to think Luke Smith is the end all Emperor of Fun Gameplay Design and that only playing it his way (or yours) is fun and rewarding. Given Destiny's lofty goal of "a 10 year game" and Luke Smith's "We hope the gear is what keeps you coming back to Raids", restricting access in any way flies in the face of these two statements. It really doesn't matter to me, simply because there are tons of great games on the horizon and if Bungie decides to screw over longtime fans (Marathon on Mac) by restricting access to paid content, I'll move my money and support elsewhere. A lot of people will. And if you and Bungie are happy with only the "hardest of the hardcore" playing the game, then that's great. Maybe they always intended it to be a 10 year game for a small group instead of everyone who's interested in it. The only thing its doing at the moment is alienating long time fans of the company.
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  • Edited by Blakimus: 8/10/2014 8:33:01 PM
    And aliens will come down from the heavens, and rule over us all for an eternity until Galactus finally eats us all in one bite. See what i did there? Assuming you know the future is treading through one of the many kinds of insanity. Tread carefully sir. The delusion is strong with this one...

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  • You're adorable. You don't know a thing about business and how it relates to consumers, but you are adorable with your clever Star Wars puns :)

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  • Edited by Blakimus: 8/11/2014 6:02:54 AM
    Pun, huh? Anyone in this forum knows you don't know the future, you created this strange future in which there isn't content planned for future release in Destiny, And completely ignore all of the other things in this game besides raiding. There is no hope for you. You've single handedly looked retarded in front of the forum dwellers. Congratulations for further invalidating you're idiotic assumptions, and claiming someone you've never come into contact with knows nothing about business.

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  • You seem to have completely missed the point of raids and the lack of matchmaking. Adding matchmaking won't increase the longevity of Destiny, it would do the opposite. Raids are meant to be community content. You're supposed to interact with other players, build rapport, make new friends. Matchmaking makes it easy to avoid that; you'll end up with a bunch of loners who don't care about dropping Destiny in favor of the newest game. The community is what will give the PvE in Destiny longevity, and the lack of matchmaking in raids will result in a bigger, healthier, longer lasting community.

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  • LOL! You're hilarious. I can't wait until Bungie has to backpedal on this crap to see people like you have nerd meltdown. Build rapport? Make new friends? All while sitting in your Captain Crunch jam jams, alone, in front of a computer? Okay. Hey you know what? Its cool. Everybody needs to feel accepted and valued. If having a segment portioned off of Destiny provides to you what you cannot achieve in real life with real people, then maybe Guilds, Clans and "hardcore" players should be the only ones who can access it. "Bigger, healthier, longer lasting community"- On consoles, for a shared world shooter, NOT an MMO. Seriously, there's a bridge I need to sell you. It may not happen, Bungie seems pretty arrogant about it. If Raids are for people like you then by all means, keep them. Trying to argue the merits of a company limiting the content of what its consumers are buying and all you kids can see is your "elite" status on some meaningless leader board/website. I knew there was a reason I hadn't been on this site in years. Again, good luck with that "10 year" game.

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  • Limiting the last 5% of the game to the people willing to put the effort in. But your right I mean if you can't raid there's really nothing to do. You can't collect ships or sparrows. You cant pvp You can't represent a faction in pvp. You can't run any strikes. You can't go explore. You can't go collect materials to level up your weapons. You can't anticipate the 2 announced dlc content to get new weapons/gear/loot. Yep pretty much nothing to do if you can't raid. Better cancel that pre order........

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  • I see what you did there, so clever! A lot of people may have. Doesn't affect me, could care less either way. You get that way about VIDEO GAMES when you have a life. All of you keep dancing around the point I'm arguing because you apparently can't come up with a grounded, legitimate counter argument. This is reportedly a 500 million dollar game that will have to sell an estimated 15-18 million copies before it can break even. No other CONSOLE shooter (and thats what this is, a shooter, not an MMO) restricts paid content from consumers this way, especially on a CONSOLE, Bungie has seriously miscalculated console players here and I won't be at all surprised to see a post game patch that adds matchmaking once their numbers start falling off. This is almost the same situation Titanfall found itself in when it catered to a relatively small demographic. It sold well enough, not great but it did okay. Then players started dropping off like crazy because its catered to a very narrow audience. Giving agoraphobics their own segment of the game to be "hardcore" and "elite" in is all well and good, but they really need to to sell this thing to as many people as possible if its going to continue to be supported and become a "10 year game". Locking its own customers out of content is a bonehead business move when you need to sell 15 million copies before you can start making a profit. Maybe if it comes out on PC then the super elite nerd core master race could make the difference but saying 5% is enough to carry this thing for ten years? At that rate it might take them 10 years to finally turn a profit. I could continue but whats the point? I'm tired of arguing business stratagem with children. I don't care if I never play Raids, it hate all that WoW crap anyways. If you want this game to succeed and receive continued support, on-disc content needs to be accessible to every player. Again, this is barring PC release or some weird "5% is all we need" financial strategy. I don't have stock in Bungie, its just fascinating to get into the minds of "bleeding edge hardcore" gamers.

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  • If not stressing simply making 5 other friends or joining a guild makes me "bleeding hard core" Then guilty as charged. If wanting something I worked for to mean something then I'm hard core. There is no point in raiding if they just hand out the good stuff to everyone. People don't come back to a game time and time again because they got everything. It's the opposite. They make one more run in hopes of getting that drop to push that dps up to finally down that raid boss. We will have to agree to disagree. If I'm raiding I want to do it with someone I can count on. Someone I have gone through the fights with, bled with and died with. I have no desire to share the spoils of all our labor with some random individual.

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  • [quote]I have no desire to share the spoils of all our labor with some random individual.[/quote] I'm more hardcore, I'm better, I "work" harder therefor they don't DESERVE to even access it. Entitlement.

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  • So one line out of all my posts. Got ya. You are correct. I would rather share the best loot in the game with people who I have persevered through the content with. I would rather work with the same group to achieve the highest goal of the game. So if by choosing people I know to share the best loot in the game with makes me elite then guilty as charged. I have never once said I don't want people to raid. I'm actually trying to get people to make destiny a more social game. To make new friends. I fail to see how that makes me "entitled" I'm not the one who looked down their nose at another person's opinion. Telling them they were immature and that the forum was full of idiots. So instead of just saying I'm wrong how bout this. How bout you share your side. Share why MM is the best choice? You clearly feel I'm dead wrong about not having MM. So instead of telling me I'm wrong. Show me I'm wrong.

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  • Already have. You can't understand or comprehend the other side of this. Or don't want to. The points have been laid out. I'm not saying you're a bad person, I'm saying you're letting your sense of entitlement impair your judgement. I'm not arguing with you past this point. Any rewards you get for your work is deserved. Implying that others don't deserve to access content they paid for because they won't conform to a developers asinine restrictions is ridiculous. Let's put it this way: we are all entitled to access this content because we are all paying the admission price. So I sincerely apologize for anything I may have said that offended you, etc. I'll agree to disagree. This crap really isn't worth arguing about. Enjoy your day, enjoy Destiny, later.

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  • You haven't offended me I'm still shocked by all these "restrictions" you keep speaking of. Again. Bungie is not saying only a select group of people can raid. Anyone can raid. As long as they have 5 others to do it with. I fail to see how this is some insurmountable barrier? I will also say people don't continue to play a game because they can get everything. They play because they can't. They push one more run in an attempt to get the gear. If you implement MM how would you do it? Would you split it up into parts? Or keep it as a whole. If you split it up. Will the gear rewards be the same as if you ran the whole thing? How do you handle people leaving? If your running the whole thing and someone leaves on the last boss does person who fills get equal reward? Do you make people who leave have a penalty time before they re que? To me if you add MM you have removed the team work aspect. If I can just back out as I feel till I get a decent group why not? Why work with a struggling group? No point. Hop from group to group. So now every time MM a raid I just check achievements. If most of my party haven't completed the raid. I'm gone. MM removes my care or loyalty factor. I'm not going stick with a "bad" group. I'm not going to push through a tough patch in a raid. I'm just gonna bounce out and try again. Why not? It's easy. Just click leave. Click join.

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  • I wish I could make you understand how ridiculous you sound. "Working" for virtual gear that has no bearing in real life. You're a child with entitlement issues. A millennial. And like everyone else on this day care funhouse of a website, you completely ignore the argument that restricting content from paying consumers is a bad business move. I know now that you and yours simply cannot comprehend this, blinded by your own sense of entitlement and achievement that must be absent in real life. You have my sympathy.

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  • I see no reason to slander me to prove your point. I don't understand why people think by attempting to make someone a lesser person it makes their point more valid. It is an opinion. Right now bungie sides with me. There could be a time bungie sides with you. Again we obviously don't and won't agree. I'm sorry that you feel I'm entitled in some way. I will still argue if you give everyone everything you shorten the life of a video game. If you have nothing to work for you have no reason to come back. You have no carrot to chase. There will be so much to do in destiny. Raids, strikes, explore, crucible, etc. Bungie has done a good job of giving everyone something to do. They have even given everyone the ability to raid. All you need to do is meet 5 people on your journey with like minded goals to raid. If people are not willing to do even that it still sounds like a gamer problem not a bungie problem.

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  • Truth hurts I guess. I wouldn't say lesser person but you do have entitlement issues. The length of your reply suggests my analysis is accurate.

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  • Edited by TargetPractice86: 8/20/2014 12:21:05 AM
    I honestly would like to know how in your opinion I'm entitled? Because of the length of a random post? I'm entitled because I want people to schedule raids and work as a team? I'm entitled because I feel that working with a consistent group of 6 people is better Imo then with random people? You use the word "restrict" like people won't have the ability to raid. That could not be further from the truth. Any one can raid. All they have to do is make 5 friends. This is not some insurmountable task. They didn't stack the deck so no one could raid. Simply meet 5 people that can all play the same time and have the time raid. Schedule the raid. Then raid. I have raided in other games. It took 10 people. When I started I only knew 5 of the people I started raiding with. The others were friends of those friends. In the end I made 5 new friends to enjoy the game with. I don't see how the same can't apply. Meet people. Meet friends of friends raid. Simple.

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  • One of the best posts I've seen talking about why MM would be bad for raids. Thank you for sharing that.

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  • Illogical and written by a Carebear who has no experience of real raiding - WoW raids do not count as they were nerfed to death by Carebears whining, resulting in my little pony raid zones. All you and your kind will seek to do is ruin this game much as you did WoW. The OP's argument is correct and is totally valid.

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  • Edited by TargetPractice86: 8/10/2014 6:21:00 PM
    I agree the ops point is valid. I do not want MM in raids. Raid finder in wow was the worst thing to ever happen to that game. Zero focus on boss mechanics. Zero teamwork. 5 afk people. Horrible. I do know they lowered the difficulty of raids as the weeks went on. Our guild did do a few heroic bosses here and there but well after the content had come out. It may have been "easier" but still tanking 2 separate raids on 2 separate tanks still did take a bit of effort. I'm not trying to come in here as an elite player. Quite the opposite. I was fortunate enough to taste raiding. I am looking forward to attempting it in destiny. I do not desire watered down nerfed content. I was merley trying to point out in wow they did not have MM for raids initially. And it still was able to keep bringing people back.

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  • I am not elitest bro', work commitments, family time and range time eat into my time too much. I was fortunate to experience what I would describe as proper raiding in EQ1. But I do like the fact that there are something's in game that will need some commitment to even attempt, no matter beat. Since 2000 I have watched the Carebears complain about just every game that I enjoyed, diluting it's content so that they could be spoon fed and be L337 as they had beaten the Sparkle Pony Raid. Finally Bungie have put a line in the sand and said we have made this hard to even meet the entry requirements and the carebears have come screaming faster than a tramp on a half eaten sandwich. I just pray that Bungie stick to their plans.

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  • I have heard peole talk about raiding in eq. I see why you compare raids in wow to care bears. I am also glad they drew a line in the sand. I hopefully will be lucky enough and meet a few friends along the wait to experience raiding. If I get something epic and cool I want it to be just that. Epic cool and bad ass. I do not want to see everyone running around with it Everyone acts like if they can't raid the game loses some value. I can not fathom why. You can still purchase awesome weapons at all the vendors we saw in the beta. You have Explore mode Story mode Crucible Strikes. Even if you took raids out of the game it's still worth every penny.

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  • You do understand a game like world of warcraft has been around for over 10 years. They only released raid MM in the past few years. People always complained it was unfair only the elite people can raid. They always complained your shutting the door on "most" gamers. Yet it is one of the most successful mmos running. So it is possible to keep people coming back to the game when there is no raid MM.

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  • It is also one of the most ridiculed and pilloried MMOs purely for the reasons that you describe. It's success was mainly due that it pandered for the masses in the same way that tabloids are more popular than broadsheet newspapers, but you wouldn't read them to learn any serious news. McDonalds is one of the most successful restaurant chains in the world, but you wouldn't eat their daily if you wanted a healthy diet. Popular does not always equate to good.

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