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Edited by Gubzs: 8/13/2014 9:55:14 PM
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Gubzs

Possible solutions to the KD-ratio problem

I like the Kill:Death system

185

I think a Score:Death system is more accurate

85

The future is here. GSR! (description below)

104

[b]WELL THE MP TRAILER WAS RELEASED...[/b]and now I don't think it really matters any longer considering that the entire multiplayer offering seems to be deathmatch, deathmatch deluxe, no teams deathmatch, and deathmatch ++. I'm sure many others than myself are disappointed, but unfortunately now this discussion is a largely moot point. Thank you all for voting anyway, and you can see the original post below. (If you don't want to read the wall of text, although I would recommend it so that you understand fully, go to the "stop, my head hurts" section for easy mode answers.) [b]Percentage that like Kill:Death the way it is - 44% Percentage in favor of adding a score:death system - 56% (k:d would still be available for you to see) Percentage of score:death folks that want the GSR system - 61% (k:d would still be available for you to see) [/b] Descriptions for the poll options are below, and begin with the text [b]"POSSIBLE SOLUTIONS"[/b]; thank you for taking the time to read my post. [b]THE ISSUE[/b] It would seem that recently in these forums, as in most FPS games of recent date, there has been the problem of players disliking being measured by their kill:death ratio. This comes from a combination of issues: -When choosing among the available stats for each player, Kill:Death ratio is easily the most accurate indicator of skill. -Win:Loss ratio is seen as (mostly) useless to many players in team based games, because regardless of performance, it is [i]always [/i]possible to lose because of a team that performs poorly. -Because a high Win:Loss ratio is seen as a poor merit, whereas a high Kill:Death ratio is often seen as an indicator of prowess, many players will neglect teamwork, or even the game objective altogether, favoring instead to go on killing the enemies. [u]Why is this a problem? I see no problem.[/u] -When players focus on Kill:Death ratio, many don't even play the objective games at all. This is possibly why deathmatch game modes have been so overpopulated in most modern shooters, leaving the CTF and Territory modes all but abandoned. -Some playes intentionally pick objective game modes so that they can easily raise their Kill:Death ratio by focusing on kills when the others in the match are focused on another objective. This is a huge issue within the Call of Duty franchise in particular. -The players that wish to actually play objective game modes are matched with and against these people, who can [i]entirely [/i]ruin the experience for them. [u]But Gubzs, this is nonsense, less words please?[/u] -Kill:Death ratio makes players selfish -Kill:Death ratio makes many game modes seem like a bad choice to play -Kill:Death ratio can ruin non-slayer gametypes by promoting an incorrect method of play -Kill:Death ratio tends to punish players that favor teamwork and being "objectively correct" (See what I did there? I did a thing. Marvelous.) [u]That's a lot of big talk, I happen to [i]like [/i]Kill:Death ratios I'll have you know. Mine is 8.31. Get on my level, scrublord.[/u] -I like Kill:Death ratios too, mine tends to hover between 2 and 3 depending on the game. I know that's not as high as yours, but be gentle, I tend to like bad guns. -What I am proposing below are a few options that I think will make everyone happy, on both sides. [b]POSSIBLE SOLUTIONS[/b] [i][u]Solution 1 - SD Ratio[/u][/i] Also known as SCORE:Death ratio. This system would favor objective players as well as slayer players, and would entice a player to perform on a more objective level, while simultaneously rewarding skill, as it should. How does it work? Simple! Let's say that you get 300 points for capturing a territory, and 100 points for getting a kill. Ocassionally bonus points will stack up from headshots and multikills and killing sprees and such. Because most points in the game are multiplied by 100, we simply divide by 100 to get our ratio. Player A spawns. She runs quickly to objective C to capture it for her team. It gets captured, so she and her nearby teammates get 300 points each for helping. Unfortunately, she rounds a corner and is killed by Player B. Player B has spawned and rushed the enemy objective for kills. He has killed Player A and one of her teammates with a well placed grenade, but gets picked off by a Fusion Rifle as he attempts to make his escape. Player C camped at B with a scout rifle, he has intentionally not taken the objective because he doesn't want to die. He has since then gotten 4 kills, 3 of them headshots for 10 bonus points each, but he gets supered in the face because nobody likes a camper. Nobody likes you, Player C. Player A would have a SDR of 3. (300 points / 1 death / 100) - Despite not getting any kills, Player A has gotten a pretty darn good score, equal to someone that had gotten three kills and then died. Player B would have a SDR of 2.2 (200 points + 20 bonus for a double kill / 1 death / 100) - Player B is fairly well off, but did not do as well as Player A in this particular life because he did not get any objectives Player C would have a SDR of 4.6 (400 points + 60 bonus for three headshots / 1 death / 100) - Player C is still doing very well by getting just kills, but this is because Player C is on a spree. Player A has nearly caught up to him and hasn't even gotten one kill. [u] Gubzs, this is math. I'll have you know I've killed greater men than you for showing me their math.[/u] I'll simplify! (Don't break my glasses) -With this system, in Destiny, a player would get points equal to three kills for capturing each objective -You would get a bonus to your SD Ratio for headshots, multikills, and sprees -Getting the 'Hat Trick' medal, without [i]any [/i]other kills would get you a SD Ratio of 9 for that life! Sounds nice, doesn't it? [u] But Kill:Death ratios are easy... I know that 1 is average. Everything above 1 is good, everything below 1 is bad... [/u] -This is why we have another option [i][u]Solution 2 - GSR[/u][/i] (Global Score Ratio) This one is fairly simple, but it is definitely math. It does everything that the above Score:Death system does, except, that it knows what the average SD Ratio is for all players across all matches, and compares it to that number! For example: -The average S:D ratio from all players in all matches is 1.35 -In a match, your S:D ratio is 2.0 -1.35 is the average, so, just for comparison, if it were a kill:death, it would be exactly "1" -Divide your S:D ratio by the average S:D ratio.... (2 / 1.35) ... and you get 1.48 -Therefore, your GSR for the match would be 1.48, and the average GSR for everyone in the world would be 1. This would mean that in that match, you did 48% better than an average player, good for you! [b][u]Gubzs PLEASE stop this my head hurts...[/u][/b] Don't know which option to vote on? Pick Kill:Death if you like Kill:Death and want it to stay that way (The average KDR is 1) Pick Score:Death if you think Score:Death is a better indicator of player skill, but don't like the GSR for some reason (The average will be unknown) -keep in mind that your kill:death will still be there too. Pick GSR if you like Score:Death, but want the number to be easy (The average GSR is 1, the GSR system is the same system as Score:Death, but easier to read) -your kd will still be available, as will your overall GSR. Having a high kd will end up giving you a high GSR. Thank you for reading!
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  • Edited by Maybewellc: 8/14/2014 2:21:45 AM
    K/D breeds real asshats. K/D needs to be removed from Destiny.
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  • A player's rating should reflect their likelihood of winning against another player. There's much better explanations of this on the Internet but it comes down to this: a rating system should ensure that players are given fair and challenging play more than produce a well defined lady of who is better than whom. The solution is to measure relative player strengths. The ELO and derivative rating systems tackled this issue decades ago, though applying it to multiplayer, multiteam games had been difficult. Current approaches reevaluate players after each match by comparing the expected outcome with the actual outcome. Furthermore, the reliability of the prediction is also central. Individual measures, be they K:D or score:death or whatever are to simplistic. A player who is always matched up against an equal opponent should have a ratio of about one. They should be winning and losing about half of their games. The problem is how to evaluate a team based on a single win-lose-draw outcome. What's needed is a metric to evaluate the quality of a match. A 3v3 game with a score of 99 to 100, each player scoring about 33, is probably a very high quality match. If on one team one person scores 80 and the others score 10, it's not a quality match. As such, in the latter case we've learned very little about player skill and any adjustments should reflect this.
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  • Edited by Gunner Night: 8/13/2014 4:43:49 PM
    You can't cap objectives if you can't learn to kill KD>Everything, quit telling yourself just because you can capture a point or play the objective and get points for your team you are good at objective mode, The truth in that logic is actually, Im terrible player who can't kill but fortunately there were enough killers on my team to carry me that i was able to capture the points thanks to their efforts, I <3 BACKPACKS. As far as a method of evaluating player skill, K/D isn't the only indicator but its a good start, The absolute best thing Bungie could ever do is to try to emulate their Halo 2 ranking system because lets face it that was the realest skill evaluator ever.
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    • This implies there's a problem and there isn't. Kills are how you get points therefore it is actually showing your "score" Dying means you're giving the other team points as well showing your relative failure to your team. K/D then shows exactly how much value you're adding to the team. If the objectives mattered I'd agree with choosing to focus on the merits of your actions over k/d but since what's been shown pretty much is just a modifier it just really doesn't matter. Well thought out post besides the inflammatory title.
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      • After watching the mp trailer other than relic hunt all the other modes are a death match style game
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      • You know... I've always deep down kinda hated the KD ratio. Foolishly I'm occasionally over concerned with it because of how it makes me "look" to other players/friends and in turn it would change the way I would play at times. If I was going negative in a match, I'd try to at least "break even" by the end. Gubzs you've actually found a very decent solution. Instead of being just "concerned" about it... You actually went and thought of how to fix it. Hopefully bungie sees this... And hopefully this could get people playing objective based game modes back onto the objective (and not trying to turn conquest/CTF into TDM) +1 for GSR!
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        • Lol these types of posts are so trivial. Who even cares?
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            Make Harambe Alive Again - 8/27/2016 5:03:12 AM

            The game isn't competitive enough for k/d to even matter. It's gonna be like CoD, where like 5 dumbasses think k/d is the most important thing ever despite the overwhelming casual play style of the game.
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            • i think keeping kd stats is making game's worse and encourages modding and other types of cheating i think you should do a score system but have no were that tells you what your kd is that way people can have fun and not be concerned about what people think about their skill which i think is a major problem i miss when people would all do stupid dumb stuff cause it was fun instead half the time people dont want the death so they forgo doing fun little things because they are concerned about their stats
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              • Well Gubz I like the cut of your gib and you have earned my support for whatever you do
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              • I like both the SD ratio and the GSR but I feel that the GSR would be a little redundant. You need the SD ratio to calculate it already right? So why not stick with the less capital consuming option that will still (in my opinion) give a better result then the KD ratio. Also I think it (SD ratio) would be much better at relaying feedback to the player. One, because one can see their avg raise or fall by whole numbers and reconize progress with these changes rather then tenths of points. Two, I think that players will start recognizing where they fall in the SD ratio hierarchy after a few months or even weeks of gameplay so we can still figure out where we fall with other players. Just my thoughts, let me know what you think. =]
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                • that was easy to understand how ever i like option 2 better the sdr. its more fair for every one. where as gsr may be a skewed perception of your score. for example lets say the average sdr is very low, around .5 or so and you get a decent sdr of 5. then your score would be skewed as 10 witch is much more then it actually is. it would be the same is true for the opposite, where if the average gsr is really high then people doing well would have a lower sdr then they deserve.
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                  • Edited by Steve: 8/8/2014 9:44:48 AM
                    Some nice ideas there. Good to see someone putting some thought into their suggestions instead of just going on a rant! I did pick your GSR option because it at least sounds like a viable option. I'm not personally too bothered...I'm a "roughly-average" player when it comes to PvP. My K/D usually hovers between 0.9 and 1.1. I can accept that I am not brilliant at PvP but I do like to play the objective. My personal focus is always to win the match. Having "average" stats and being on the winning team is fine by me :-)
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                    • KD shouldnt be there, people should rather be enjoying the game than camping their ass off, annoying other people and dont have fun themselves. (For ex. CoD) Halo always did it right, until Halo 4.
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                      • Hi
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                        • Why not just get rid of the K/D ratio all together. Who needs stats :o
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                          • The problem with the sdr is that kill scores multiply by the number of points held so if a grabs all three they only get a small bonus where the player camping gets a large bonus putting you in the same problem as you had for the regular kdr
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                            • Edited by Ghost: 8/11/2014 9:50:11 AM
                              What about just a match won/loss stat only? Don't care for stats myself, but just a thought.
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                              • Why not both? (Not score:death ratio. I don't like that)
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                                • What's the point of a K/D ratio with no quit percentage tracker? Billy 10.00 K/D ratio could be a compulsive rage quitter who backs out every time he is not on a perfect game to protect his stats.
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                                  • I'm not in PvP, I just hope that this score will never come into play when seeking players for PvE content. That would be real elitism
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                                    • People will choose whatever suits their play style and whatever makes them look better. I really don't know why people care anyway. It's just a game. Play, have fun! If your good at a game your stats will reflect that, regardless of how you play or how your teams performing. In one crucible game I was left all alone against 5. I would cap a flag set some cover and wait. I could generally take out 2-3 before being over run. No I'm not bragging, just trying to prove that good players can perform in any circumstances. My k/d is 1.12. Does this mean I suck. Looking at it would it tell you that I spent more time testing weapons or looking for good vantage points in the map than really focusing on the game itself. Games should equal fun. Stop caring about stats and just play the damn game. A large majority of you are not, and will never be pro gamers (pause for world to shatter). If that's what you want to be then prove yourselves in comps and tryout for clans. If your really that good your stats will sort themselves out.
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                                      • It doesn't bother me. Idc as long as I know if I'm doing good or bad
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                                        • Kill:Death ratios should still be tracked and recorded but there should be an "incentive" stat that shows rather or not a person does the assigned objective in the crucible.
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                                          • This is my arguement for all of these. If your team is winning you are doing good. If your team is losing you are doing bad. The only reason people want any of this is so if they are losing they can point out the worst player and blame them. Luckily in Destinys crucible you dont have to play the objectives as hard as long as you have 1. If you know you play the objectives then who do you need to prove it too and why do you need a number to show it. You know it happened because YOU WERE THE ONE DOING IT. If you just like to brag then honestly I dont care the only thing worth bragging about is if your team is winning.
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                                            • So OP, what is your K/D ratio?
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