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Destiny

Discuss all things Destiny.

Edited by iD HawKeYe: 8/1/2014 7:50:41 PM
97

Too Hard to Coordinate Six People for a Raid...? Raid Elitism, Coordination, Nerf Guns

Uh huh, tell that to the people who were able to successfully coordinate 40 people for 40 man raids in Molten Core (and AQ) in vanilla WoW. That's without mentioning the fact that were far less people playing vanilla WoW than will be playing Destiny. Seriously, it will not be all that difficult to find people to raid with if you really want to. [u][b]Update #8: [/b][/u] [url=http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=123373556&postcount=1085]Here, Bungie Lead Designer Luke Smith on Raid MM:[/url] [quote]I understand everyone's frustration about the decision to not have matchmaking in a post-matchmaking world. I also understand the limitations that this places on the activity's adoption at scale. That barrier to entry - the requirement that you get a group of people together and venture into something that is going to challenge your ability to work together (first) and your thumbs (second) - is a barrier I was willing to erect to preserve the activity goals. Bleeding edge hardcore groups will invest some significant amount of time in figuring out the encounters and making their way through the Vault. I fully expect groups to beat Normal mode in the first week its available. This is intentional, I'd like any group that is motivated and willing to cooperate to make their way through the Raid on Normal. I've talked some about thumbskill challenge vs. investment challenge vs. cooperation challenge in some interviews, and the Normal Raid difficulty prioritizes cooperation challenge and investment challenge. I expect Hard mode to take longer. Once your group learns the encounters, you will be able to get through the Raid significantly faster than 3 hours. However, the first time through, learning everything and arranging your group will take some hard-to-predict amount of time until some clan releases their strategies on YouTube. The Vault of Glass is in many ways an activity that will build groups from the disparate people who come together to try and make their way through it. It's very much a team-building exercise. If you're going to stream it this Fall, please feel free to let me know here. I'd love to tune in.[/quote] [b][u]Update #6[/u][/b]-- [url=http://m.ign.com/articles/2014/07/30/destiny-the-endgame-is-only-the-beginning-ign-first] From the IGN article discussing Destiny's endgame:[/url] [quote]Raids are “extremely crafted,” six-player, friends-only gauntlet runs that might best be described as gut-checks. Yes, they will be difficult, and they will absolutely require communication and cooperation. That’s why Bungie isn’t supporting matchmaking for them; the developers don’t want them to be played by disparate groups of strangers. But Smith is quick to point out that they’re not like Strikes – the instanced dungeon-like runs that might take a mere 20-60 minutes – but more like MMO raids in that you’re going to want to buckle up and get comfortable for a couple hours... ...And then, Smith added ominously, “It's getting people together and getting them into a group and making your way down to the Vault of Glass and seeing what's at the bottom of it – if you can get that far.” That’s not to say raids will be impossible, but this is Bungie, after all – a studio famous for challenging fans with the Legendary difficulty setting in its Halo games: “One of the things we have never talked about – we haven't really talked about raiding at all,” Smith starts. “One of the things we certainly haven't talked about is that [raids aren’t] an activity that we expect you to get through the first time through."[/quote] [b][u]Update:[/u][/b] Difference between using the forums or companion app to find people versus using a random matchmaking system: First, I can view all of your stats, gear, and achievements on the forums in thirty seconds. Or, I can access all of your stats, gear, and achievements through the Companion App on my smart phone in thirty seconds. I now have a pretty good idea of whether or not you are a decent player, and I can make an educated decision on whether or not I think you will make a good addition to my raid team. We can also coordinate classes and subclasses along with the gear we think will fit each person best depending on how the others are geared. Does this seem like a random process? [u][b]Update #2[/b][/u] -- All players can access all of Destiny's content. However, raids are elitist by nature due to a convergence of factors: they [should be] extremely challenging, they take a lot of time to gear up for, they take a lot of time to complete, they require a lot of motivation on behalf of the player and the team, they require the team to cooperate even when the **** hits the fan, etc. (This is why I've never been more than a casual raider.) Raids are, for better or worse, not meant for the player who isn't determined to defeat it. Any sod can roll through the story missions and strikes, but raids are an altogether different beast. [b][u]Update #7[/u][/b] - On being asked what "my" issue with raid matchmaking is: [quote] What does happen, however, is the people who pug the raids generally complain and complain and complain that they can never finish a raid no matter how hard they try and that x, y, and z mechanics need to be nerfed (when in reality they don't as 99.9% it's a coordination issue), and these things then get nerfed. Then, something else needs to be nerfed. Before you know it (and this has happened to every game that has implemented a group finding system for difficult PvE content), content is being nerfed across the board. I seriously despise having to say this because I rarely get along with this group, but the elite and/or hardcore crowd is necessary for long-running games to survive. The hardcore crowd tests all of the new endgame content because they are always the first to get there, they give the best feedback on mechanics as they've been playing for far longer and with much more gusto than the average gamer, and they not only stick around the longest, but they are consistent in that there aren't large gaps in their playing record as is seen in many, many long-running games. (Ask someone how many times they've quit and returned to WoW or other MMO's.)[/quote] [u][b]Update #3[/b][/u] -- Changed Title [u][b]Update #4[/b][/u] -- [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAjJNyJoYeI]Video on the Vault of Glass[/url] [u][b]Update #5[/b][/u] -- Fellow forum member H0RSE made an eloquent point on what raiding actually is about: [quote]Sorry, but this, more or less, are how raids work. You don't go on a Raid based on a whim or boredom. You plan for them, you schedule them, and at the very least, you have a roster of experienced, known players, ready to help you out. You seem to be getting frustrated at something you don't fully understand. Raids don't behave like Strikes or even a pvp match, where random matchmaking can be viable. Like the OP said, Raids are a different beast. Raids tend to be the creme de la creme in games like this, in terms of challenge, in terms of preparation, in terms of time required, rewards granted, and even bragging rights. Hell, most raids have requirements before you can even enter, whether it be a key or some other item, a high enough gear score, or whatever else.[/quote]
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  • WeArLegend, [Lgnd], having trouble finishing nightfall? Trouble finishing the Vault of Glass? Join Us! We are looking to build fireteam of six for a raid on Hard on Vault. To be eligible for primary raid group: 1. Acquire level 28 2. Successfully complete nightfall raid 3. Have a legendary scout rifle, sniper rifle, and rocket launcher. 4. Have a mic and know how to communicate effectively with the group. 5. Be able to schedule raids 2 days in advance! 6. Of course be able to do raid mode on normal and impress the rest of the raid group! 7. Be Mature! 18+ preferred but will make exceptions. Currently our raid group is pretty solid, although we are willing to switch a member or two. Also we are looking to get two to three subgroups to complete the raid, and the primary raid members will help with subgroups. This is an endgame raid clan. Only join if you are very dedicated to the end! We are Legend! Psn "DenaVici" lvl "good enough" Time Zones, "All"
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  • So much jibber jabber from people that wouldn't have to use mm if they didn't want to. I'm sure it will be a good challenge but I've beaten all halo games legendary solo. Dark souls solo. Went undefeated in iron banner one 2 hour stretch with randoms. Beaten extinction with randoms. There are other games out there that none of you, nor your friends, have beaten due to difficulty. Don't be so ignorant as to think a group of friends or clanmates is somehow superior to randoms, at all.
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    • Edited by TheUnknownMerc: 7/31/2014 2:27:03 PM
      My main issue is, you assume that we would go in with random people, lose, and bitch about it...(some of you will). But what if i want to go into a raid on the whim, play it fully. Why do i have to plan days ahead, or that day to play a game? It's the restriction I dislike. If i myself and a few friends want to go in unprepared, get -blam!- a bunch of times and keep trying...why can't I? If i want to play with random people and have fun why can't i? What because "This is a raid"? That's bullshit, I paid for a game and i want to play it without people going "OPPS Sorry...uhhh yeah you have to first go and find 5 other people to find this shit... You know what this exactly reminds me of? old pokemon games where to evolve certain pokemon you had to TRADE with other people...and this was before you -blam!-s have these adhoc and wifi in gaming consoles and shit, you needed the person to physically be there with you, WITH a cable, AND the game. Let me tell you what, didn't happen and i couldn't do shit. Or let's go to the Gameboy Advanced Version of Zelda a link to the past with the Four Swords game...you couldn't -blam!-ing play Four swords without someone else. A game shouldn't restrict you to go "YEAH SORRY YOU HAVE TO FIND PEOPLE TO PLAY THE GAME YOU PAID FOR." If i need to play with people to play something they should support a function that does this... Oh wait they do...and it's not hard to put that function into the Raid. Sure if you want to find a fireteam of 6 people, go for it, why can't those of us who have fireteams of 2 people still do it? or people who just want to spend 4 hours shooting shit and helping others he's never met before? You all act like having matchmaking would make the game WORSE in any way...and would be too much to ask. First off YOU DON'T NEED TO USE IT. Second it's not hard they already have a system in place, it's a simple matter of copy, change a few variables, call the -blam!-ing function, GG raid.
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      • Edited by YoshiMitsuri: 8/3/2014 5:05:18 AM
        The biggest issue i find with non matchmaking raids is if you dont have friends, youll probably not get to raid more then once a month (if lucky). Which is kind of silly given it being a significant part of Destiny. At least in WoW there was -blam!-tons of other content to do outside of raids (crafting, quests, mount farming, etc. Even more these days) But in Destiny, youll be either grinding through stuff, or hoping to god to find someone to raid with. Also, gluing people to the 'friends only' option is NOT the best idea. Yes, maybe people will complain if theyre just bad at it, but people complain anyway. And being with friends wont make you complain less if youre bad at it. Also, Most of my friends on steam were from Co-op in PayDay2 Overkill, or L4D Expert mode, and similar things. Was i friends with them before? no. Was it hard as hell? yes. Was it fun regardless? -blam!- yes. Maybe if they simply made it so you had to have a microphone plugged in to use the matchmaking, then it wouldnt be that hard to coordinate a random Pug. Its simply not feasible in this day and age to refuse matchmaking, purely on the idea that it 'helps' the game. If the matchmaking isnt like WoW LFR (where its much easier) then bragging rights remain bragging rights, your world record run time is still valid, and people who dont have friends (or reliable ones) on their console dont miss out. TL:DR - Matchmaking makes friends, and the complaining bads will complain regardless of who theyre with. It wont hurt anyone to add matchmaking, but it will to leave it out
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        • Just stop with these threads. This is not WoW, these are not 40 person raids. Just -blam!-in' say that it's what Bungie decided and move the -blam!- on.
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        • Honestly I don't have any issue with the need to coordinate people/group to take on Raids. I'm more so curious at the backlash against having matchmaking (in general). I don't think people are saying they want access to Raids be via matchmaking only as with Crucible. Rather that matchmaking as an option alongside the make your own groups. Seems harmless enough, but as I stated it's met with strong opposition. Why? Well the first opinion is that people are being lazy and should be able to create a group on their own. There is some merit to that statement. You'd think in raising themselves to 20 in the game they'd either obtain enough friends or at least joined a group of sorts. Okay. But it's the OP's own comment I think that hits closer to the source of the outrage. If unprepared people play and fail they'll complain and ruin Raids. This is an opinion I cannot get behind. Primarily people have complained (and will complain) about every aspect of this game. The number of changes implemented from said complaints is few. Interceptors are the only one I've heard any action taken. But I really think we should give people more credit. People were told Dark/Demon Souls was hard and they ran out to get it. In addition who is say that these elite/hardcore people don't complain as well when they fail or things go wrong. I recall some angry threads about Iron Banner. Those people with 2.0+ k/d ratio downright frustrated that they hadn't gotten an item for their performance. So yeah, those elite guys can complain just as much as anyone else. It feels like abit of ego in there. It's to be a challenge yet if anyone can do it, it loses some appeal. And yet not everyone will complete it. Most of those random groups may not come of much, but it will give them experience and in turn they will make their own groups. Relying on a ragtag group will eventually be just for the challenge itself rather than an organized party . Oh wells. I look forward to trying it out myself. Some of those vids of people jumping vanishing platforms make me think they will be rather fun.
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        • Edited by SupaStaVince: 8/1/2014 10:02:17 PM
          I should mention that raids in your typical MMO are not that hard as long as you have everyone play a certain role and stick to it. Don't compare raids in Destiny when you haven't even played them yet. Run a few strikes, send out some invites to people you thought were good and run a raid. There's a MM playlist for strikes, you can use that to scout players. The closest thing I can think of for an example would be to try running Platinum difficulty on Mass Effect 3 multiplayer. You ever tried that with randoms? Never goes well.
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          • 0
            Oh my, I just posted this in another thread as well but I'll put it here for you to read too: We need matchmaking for raids. When you have a full time job and maybe a family too your gaming time isn't very flexible anymore, and finding 5 [b]friends [/b]playing Destiny,[b] leveled high and geared well enough[/b] and [b]willing [/b]to do the raid with you [b]during that exact same 1-2 hour time window[/b] is unnecessary hard really. And I'll have a clan with lots of people in it, but I'm still worried, because we will have members from all over the world with [b]different time zones, jobs, families[/b] and hence not always the same playing times. Also, to all the people complaining about how randoms *could* destroy the experience of a raid by quitting or not playing well: What kind of an ignorant and elitist attitude is that? You realize you don't have to play with randoms even it they do add matchmaking? If you have enough friends always on you can always play raids with them exclusively and not with randoms. However, try thinking about how glad you'd be if Bungie added matchmaking to raids should you ever have that team of 5 people ready for a raid and just can't find that 6th player on that particular day. BUNGIE PLEASE ADD MATCHMAKING. DON'T RUIN THE EXPERIENCE FOR MANY OF US BY NOT LETTING US TAKE PART IN THE END GAME. PLEASE.
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            • you get with a bunch of friends and you act out what you're gonna do with NERF guns. then by the time you actually play the game you'll have enough practice
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              • Too many people are coming from CoD and Halo franchises and are expecting all the simple matchmaking, but that's not how an MMO functions, especially with the RPG elements. forming a wow aq40 or mc raid took hours of just prep work and then you had to actually hold the raid together as you progressed though the HOURS it took to down [i]one or two bosses[/i] and then come back another day to progress more. I agree with everything you said, and I'm glad you wrote it all out
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                • Here's everyone's argument: no to matchmaking, because it is impossible with randoms. Here's the reality: raids will be more difficult, but not impossible with randoms. I am no WoW raider. Maximum raids I've done was with randoms in DCUO, so the parties weren't too big. And can you believe that I managed to beat them, with randoms, with minimal communication? Of course not, because you think everyone's retarded, that they do not read guides, and that they are going to LEEEROOOYYYYY JENNNNKINNSSSS every time you get into a new area. The truth is that people will read about raids, and take hints and tips from different locations, whether guides or YT. Now unless they make the raids as punishing as Dark Souls, where a single mistake dooms the whole team, then there is no reason as to inhibit matchmaking. OH NO. MY WHOLE TEAM IS DEAD. LET ME GO REVIVE THEM IN THE MIDDLE OF THE BATTLEFIELD. No. You wait for the 30 seconds to pass. It's that simple.
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                  • The big issue on these forums is that the majority playerbase has little to none MMO experience. However, Bungie should implement a "LFR" matchmaking difficulty for raids for players with limited schedules. Kudos OP/H0RSE, well worded.
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                  • I dont want mm in raid either...but they must improve chat systems in game. Pvp chat, proxy chat etc
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                    • The Bungie Team, says it's an end game event. Designed to be completed with friends, and as an activity after everything has been completed. You guts are whining about, match-making because; 1) you don't have many friends! 2) you want to compare games, that aren't Destiny to Destiny. 3) You for what ever reason, have trouble using the forums. 4) Just like to whine, about things just because. Did I miss anything? Well, think about this. 1) By the time you get leveled, weapons up, an acquire your gear. You should have, more than enough to choose from. 2) Bungie' stated " a game never before attempted". Different game styles merged into one game. 3) Should be a "No Brainer", by now. In case you didnt notice your using the forums. An most of you used Bungie's Destiny App, and there's Destiny clans every where. 4) This might be the hardest, to do accomplish. However, theres still avenues to the destination. Go to your nearest grocer, get some baby formula. Proceed home, an chug it like beer. While you play C.O.D., B.F.4, an what ever else floats your boat. While you dream about, the time when you had tit pressed to your lips. -If you want to a whiner, take it to CosPlay.
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                    • I'm trying really hard to care right now, but you mentioned WoW so........ nope.
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                      • Edited by Qhiron1280: 7/31/2014 5:42:35 AM
                        -To all you players, thinking you'll be able to complete a raid with randoms. You guys are forgetting a really big piece information. 1) Being Bungie, invited a team test the raid. Just in case you missed it, the first time "a team". Not 6 random, a f-ing team. That in its self should tell your morons, this isn't just some casual round of Gamplay. Your all, meaning your clan, and friends are going to have to get together, to plan & prep, talk strategies. Do you think you could really do a raid, from start to finish? With 5 random people, right before the raid starts? Did you just say "yes, sure I can?" You do know start to finish, means you can't get mad a Rage Quite, right!! Before, I start really getting annoyed. There is no team, in this world that wins games with just random people participating. An just in case you missed it again. Randoms can't practice properly with anyone. Oh yeah, the above questions are really rhetorical. Its a resounding [b][u]NO[/u][/b], all around. An if all you people's, still don't understand. Failure, can also be a great teacher.
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                        • Thank you someone finally said it and said it better than I was able to.
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                        • All we need is a better communication system in the game. Even a party finder, it's not a matchmaking system. I post what I want to do, you read it and join up if you want the same thing. As it stands Bungie wants us to use the forums and companion app, no. We need it in the game. I have my PS4, and a keyboard. Now I need my phone or I-pad, no. This is going backwards. Sad, so much money spent. Waiting for launch, and I am nervous.
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                          • I bet you think they should put gear score in the game also. I do not think MM should be in this game but when the first thing you put is check peoples stats and gear you are also part of the problem.
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                            • Before comparing this game to WoW or any other online MMO you might want to realize there is one major difference between them. Communication. It is a hell of a lot easier to organize something when I have quickly and easily able to talk to any single person I see. All chat. Party chat. Guild chat. Area chat. Class chat. Private chat. All of these are easily accessible and used by -everyone-. These games were made for networking between players to be easily because that is what they are based off of. Destiny has none of this, and don't include these forums as the viable alternative, because these come nowhere close to that. By removing all forms of easy communication, you essentially isolate everyone by putting up these barriers. I can do strike after strike and Destiny and not learn shit about any single person I went with. If I party with anyone in an MMO, it would be hard NOT to learn about them through the course of a run. Interaction in an MMO is natural, while interaction in Destiny is entirely forced. You have to go out of your way for it and even then, it's nowhere close to the level of just chatting with someone. Hell, you can hardly do anything in game because the social hub only allows 10-15 people in it per iteration, which only a fraction of will have any interest in what you are wanting to do. THIS is why it's so easy to get the large man raids. You're comparing apples to oranges so don't act like they're the same. Secondly, why does it matter to so many people how certain people play the game? Why does it matter if they fail? Who cares? It doesn't affect you in any way shape or form, so why does it matter what they do? If someone gains their entire pleasure from this game, going around and collecting spin metal, why does it matter? And just because a PUG couldn't complete it doesn't mean they won't learn anything from it. I see no harm in letting people queue, have them run into a brick wall, and have them take what they can from the experience. If you're worried about people complaining it's too hard (which honestly, that's going to happen anyway), fine. When a person queues make them sit through a 5 second warning stating "This raid is balanced for fireteams who have a high degree of skill and cooperation and it will be near impossible to complete with random Guardians". If people bitch, well, they were warned. You could even make it so you could only queue with a full 3 man fire-team (which is a lot easier to organize). This would create 6 mans with at least some cohesion that everyone who is already doing premades is so upset about. To summarize: -Destiny has nowhere near the communcation capabilities of a traditional MMO -Give a warning, stating that PUGs are going to die -Make it so you have to queue with 3 people -Stop giving a damn about how other people play the game that they paid for
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                            • [quote]There are a few of these people out there, that are happy with it, as it meets their personal requirements. They fail to realise how this effects others, and how they would feel in our situation.[/quote]
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                            • "Raids tend to be the creme de la creme in games like this" What other games like this? Destiny is a FPS. That is fact. Bungie calls it a shared world shooter which seems like a very good descriptor. How many times has bungie been asked if Destiny is an MMO? The answer is a lot and they squirm and try to get away from that word as fast as they can. Please stop trying to compare this to WOW and the like, it is just the evolution of online FPS's.
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                              • Edited by Griz: 8/1/2014 12:12:48 AM
                                I think the bigger difference in MM through the game (in this case you do it on forums and the companion app) in an mmo and MM through a built in system is that when you get a raid group together in an mmo you know they can complete the content because you have spent all that damn time attuning for it and everyone needs to be on the same level. A good example I would say goes similar to this: Early on you start running dungeons (Strikes in destiny) to practice mechanics figure out your class etc. After a while you will start meeting some people in the dungeons that are playing very well (preforming their role properly) most likely a good idea is to friend invite that person. By the time you have hit level cap (lets not say level cap for Destiny and just say this point you'd be about lvl 20) you have met a few of these people and have been grouping and talking with them maybe one or two have a guild maybe not but either you would join theirs if it was ready for endgame all join another or start one of your own either way this is just a fireteam in Destiny so it's much easier. Anyways NOW you are ready to start attuning to the raid (20-25 strikes in Destiny) which you would most likely run together and by the time you are done doing this the 6 of you have put in some good hours playing with each other and if you are good have learned each others play habits rotations synergies etc. This is where you would start raiding. So the difference for me between MM and grouping up/playing with people in game of my own accord? I have played with these guys for hours and know what build they are running what gear they use what skill rotations they use and that allows me to know what skills of mine to use when and how they will react to a situation like a fight gone haywire which will be what makes us succeed in a raid. The raid designers aren't asking you to compare just inviting a random in the tower to a MM system those 2 scenarios pretty much are the same and both are bad options. The point is to be inviting people in strikes together finding people you enjoy playing with long before you are able to raid, IF your aspiration is raid, by the time you get there you will have been playing with your raid fireteam already. P.S. none of this post mentions you needing to have a friends list prior to the game this is assuming your friends list is empty before you start playing.
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                                • If i am going to be raiding then i would rather raid with 5 of my existing COD clan mates because we know each others playstyles, communicate well and can rely on each other. The thoughts of undertaking a long mission with randoms does not appeal to me at all.
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                                • Man I hope raids don't take two hours, not everyone has that kind of time for video games. I would hope for an hour tops.
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                                  • Edited by TransAMRaiser00: 7/31/2014 2:01:29 PM
                                    Definitely not hard. Just taxing. Matchmaking is more efficient. Why would matchmaking make exotics easier to get? What kind of logic is this? If you say nerfing, then it is bungie's fault for succumbing. I have seen so many posts and attempts that TRY to refute matchmaking. Matchmaking is an option. If I want to play with randoms and fail it is up to me. If you want to play with your buddies, then that is also fine with me. Matchmaking does not make a difference to you joining friends. It's just another outlet.
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