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#Septagon

1/2/2013 5:10:47 AM
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A huge problem with this community

Before I begin, let me clarify something. This thread is mostly in reference to threads on the Flood, because the Septagon is saturated with employees, moderators, and people dedicated to pleasing the previous two groups, and because the game forums have effectively died. Bungie.net has a culture problem. A culture problem that I believe is detrimental to the growth and success of the website. Hostility is not really something I see talked about much here so I figured this was worth a thread. The Flood's not a pleasant place, and it never really has been. In fact, it got so bad that the Big Man had to step in and [url=http://www.bungie.net/Forums/posts.aspx?postID=26466683]do this[/url]. It kind of feels like the entire community, moderators and members both, have forgotten [url=http://www.bungie.net/Help/content_viewer.aspx?link=conduct]that being a jerk is a bad thing.[/url] Anyone who posts often on the Flood can see this. People are constantly tossing around insults, and pretty nasty ones at that. For some reason, no one seems to care anymore - maybe because we're dark, or maybe because we've just all gotten lazy or grown out of being bothered by such things. [url=http://www.bungie.net/Forums/posts.aspx?postID=76620787]Just look through a few[/url] [url=http://www.bungie.net/Forums/posts.aspx?postID=76616824]pages from a couple of threads made since yesterday.[/url] Let me stop here and say that I am not trying to be negative and judgmental towards the moderation team. I know that holding that position is difficult from experience elsewhere, I know how exhausting and bothersome the job is. I'm aware that moderators can't be everywhere at all times to ban people who are hurling nasty insults at someone. This is just as much a call to members. Every one of us are given a report button so we can help keep the forums clean, but who really uses it unless they're upset over something an OP said? How often do you see a post reported aside from OPs and harmful links? The sheer nastiness that can be seen just by scanning over any somewhat long thread is astounding. Maybe moderators don't ban people within threads because they don't see them. Maybe the same is true for people not reporting a post. I can't tell you how many times I've seen a moderator lock an exceptionally long thread, that everyone knows is nothing but a cluster-blam!- of angry people spewing hate at each other, and not bother to even read the second post. Like I said, I understand when you just don't see it, but why in the hell are people in these huge threads not reporting these types of posts? I know that people will be jerks on the internet, and I'm not expecting it to change. But can we please do something to get rid of this toxicity before new people start pouring in? People have strong opinions on things, and they're certainly entitled to them, but why do you have to insult someone by saying you can't tell if she's a boy or a girl? Why do you have to say nasty things to non-heteros, or females, or people who don't like the same private group as you do? Why is any of this tolerated at all? Allowing this stuff to go on is just running people away from the site, because a civilized person has no reason to spend their time being involved in a community that harbors these types of people. I know what the responses will be to this post. People will tell me how I'm being too sensitive and how it's just the way the internet is. People will tell me I'm one of the jerks. And look, I know I overstep the line sometimes when I'm joking. None of us are perfect, but I don't think asking members to attempt to be decent (and mods to enforce decency when needed) is too much to ask. You can ignore this problem all you want, but I know from talking to others that I'm not the only person who sees this. It's a real problem that needs to be fixed.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] doctor woot [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] BlackHeaven [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] doctor woot Why is OP hidden? Are you people really that immature?[/quote] That's the ultimate proof of Harlow's point. [/quote]He's being critical! Get him![/quote] He's advocating hostility! Ignore him!

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] spartain ken 15 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Jesse Pinkman I go on the flood a lot. I can tell you that if the mods were stricter it would suck. I go on other forums to bond with community and make friends but the flood is for flood stuff. If a new member comes to the flood and doesnt like what they see, the flood isnt for them. The fact of the matter is that the flood is a strange community. We argue like hell, but the is a mutual love even if you cant see it.[/quote] If you act strict to everyone then people will get mad. The rules are laxed for a reason and are pretty lenient. If mods just went around slapping 14 day bans for every little thing, no one would use the forums. [/quote] I agree.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Recon Number 54 I believe that the Bungie Store should offer Bungie-branded "asbestos underoos". They'd make at least a thousand dollars.[/quote] Carefull with that de-railing, you might get yourself banned. by.....yourself.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] spartain ken 15 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Coxx153 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] IHaveTURRETS JR Since when has ignoring troll posts and flame bait been wrong? I'm pretty sure he's just advocating "Don't feed the troll."[/quote] [i]"If they can be subtle, are you saying that you can't be similarly sly?"[/i] - I'm pretty sure he's advocating ken to be a subtle dick back to them. [/quote] I don't want to cause any trouble but I think if mods are noticing that people are flame baiting and it is going to far, they should step in. I don't think it is right to just tell you to ignore it and not even address or deal with the people causing the problem. [/quote]Mods can't be vigilant on every single thread though. I look at this situation from the perspective of "fire needs oxygen to burn". I give my girlfriend this advice when her mom tries to argue/troll her. If you see a repeated pattern of random users trying to bait you into an argument or trolling you for the sake of trolling, then this is nothing worthy of arguing over, as it is nothing you haven't seen before. Whoever that anonymous person is behind their screen, they have no power over you, and their words have no real power, so just try to make sure you're not giving any artificial significance to the words that are getting under your skin. You simply cannot and should not "fight" every single battle. Trolls want a reaction. Don't give them the reaction they're looking for and they largely have no reason to continue doing what they're doing. There's plenty of users I'd have loved to give a scathing response to, but it serves no purpose other that to needlessly over-inflate the ego.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] spartain ken 15 ... it is rare if the offending party is ever dealt with unless it is blatantly obvious. [/quote] And that is my threshold Ken. I am not here to protect each and every member's personal experience and make sure that they each feel comfy, safe and welcome. I can't do that. I am here to make sure that the community as a whole is welcoming, friendly and open. That (IMO) means that we allow for a little "rough and tumble" exchange of views. Something gets TOO personal, too over the line (my line, not yours), then I act. But when I act, it is not to protect or defend the individual, but to act on behalf of the entire community and our hosts. The Bungie community (stand by, major old-timer memory coming on) was originally a VERY rowdy place. People were more than willing to barb, slight, and poke at each other. It came with the territory. No one took it personally, it was akin to dorm-room pranks and brothers punching each other on the arm. Anyone who came into that community who was easily offended or hurt, well they either learned to keep up, or they left crying. Now, things are different, but the core remains. We're ALL a community, a family, and while we may not always get along like the gentry having afternoon tea, people should understand who this community is. A bunch of fans of people who make games, who trade barbs, who don't get their feathers ruffled or panties twisted over their ego. IWHBYD is a great example. Seriously, if someone told you "I would have been your daddy, but the dog beat me over the fence" would you be offended? Shocked? Because in the Bungie community that I know, those sort of "insults" are a way of saying "you're one of us, you are family, and I know/hope that you can handle a little heat". Otherwise, asbestos underoos are being suggested in the Bungie Store at this very moment. For those whose cheeks and nads can't handle a little heat. TLDR: I am not a babysitter or bodyguard for anyone. If someone thinks that I am here to make their experience safe and happy, they got the wrong memo. [Edited on 01.02.2013 9:29 AM PST]

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Jesse Pinkman I go on the flood a lot. I can tell you that if the mods were stricter it would suck. I go on other forums to bond with community and make friends but the flood is for flood stuff. If a new member comes to the flood and doesnt like what they see, the flood isnt for them. The fact of the matter is that the flood is a strange community. We argue like hell, but the is a mutual love even if you cant see it.[/quote] If you act strict to everyone then people will get mad. The rules are laxed for a reason and are pretty lenient. If mods just went around slapping 14 day bans for every little thing, no one would use the forums.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] BlackHeaven [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] doctor woot Why is OP hidden? Are you people really that immature?[/quote] That's the ultimate proof of Harlow's point. [/quote]He's being critical! Get him!

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  • I go on the flood a lot. I can tell you that if the mods were stricter it would suck. I go on other forums to bond with community and make friends but the flood is for flood stuff. If a new member comes to the flood and doesnt like what they see, the flood isnt for them. The fact of the matter is that the flood is a strange community. We argue like hell, but the is a mutual love even if you cant see it.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] doctor woot Why is OP hidden? Are you people really that immature?[/quote] That's the ultimate proof of Harlow's point.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Recon Number 54 I believe that the Bungie Store should offer Bungie-branded "asbestos underoos". They'd make at least a thousand dollars.[/quote] Better yet, they would make 100,000 on the anti itch cream that is needed for the after effects.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Kalriq No, I'm not saying you do - I mean the problem of people baiting and trying to get a rise out of you, and not getting their just desserts. :)[/quote] I was joking :) (people aren't being held accountable for their actions) The problem I am noting is the mods just tell people to ignore the trolls. I am not saying this is a bad thing, but that is usually all that ever happens. The people who cause the problems are not usually banned or not dealt with before the chain reaction goes off and the forum goes into mass hysteria. I don't respond to trolls, I try very hard, and I PM the mods if it gets to be much of an issue but it is rare if the offending party is ever dealt with unless it is blatantly obvious. [Edited on 01.02.2013 9:16 AM PST]

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  • 0
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Recon Number 54 If they can be subtle, are you saying that you can't be similarly sly? [/quote] Doesn't that feed the problem? A sort of never ending cycle? I'd rather not be involved at all. Edit: Question already answered. [Edited on 01.02.2013 9:18 AM PST]

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  • Why is OP hidden? Are you people really that immature?

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] spartain ken 15 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Kalriq [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] spartain ken 15 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Coxx153 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] IHaveTURRETS JR Since when has ignoring troll posts and flame bait been wrong? I'm pretty sure he's just advocating "Don't feed the troll."[/quote] [i]"If they can be subtle, are you saying that you can't be similarly sly?"[/i] - I'm pretty sure he's advocating ken to be a subtle dick back to them. [/quote] I don't want to cause any trouble but I think if mods are noticing that people are flame baiting and it is going to far, they should step in. I don't think it is right to just tell you to ignore it and not even address or deal with the people causing the problem. [/quote]Ken, I think what Recon's getting across is half of what you're saying. Ignoring the people baiting you, or not baiting you is the first step. If you don't give a response, it can't continue in the thread. Then, when you've managed to hold back a wild mud shot, you can PM a ninja if you feel action is totally necessary, or just press the report button. :) It keeps you clean, but still solves the problem. [/quote] Yeah I understand, I ignore people if it is an issue, I don't have a problem. [/quote]No, I'm not saying you do - I mean the problem of people baiting and trying to get a rise out of you, and not getting their just desserts. :)

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Kalriq [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] spartain ken 15 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Coxx153 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] IHaveTURRETS JR Since when has ignoring troll posts and flame bait been wrong? I'm pretty sure he's just advocating "Don't feed the troll."[/quote] [i]"If they can be subtle, are you saying that you can't be similarly sly?"[/i] - I'm pretty sure he's advocating ken to be a subtle dick back to them. [/quote] I don't want to cause any trouble but I think if mods are noticing that people are flame baiting and it is going to far, they should step in. I don't think it is right to just tell you to ignore it and not even address or deal with the people causing the problem. [/quote]Ken, I think what Recon's getting across is half of what you're saying. Ignoring the people baiting you, or not baiting you is the first step. If you don't give a response, it can't continue in the thread. Then, when you've managed to hold back a wild mud shot, you can PM a ninja if you feel action is totally necessary, or just press the report button. :) It keeps you clean, but still solves the problem. [/quote] Yeah I understand, I ignore people if it is an issue, I don't have a problem.

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  • I believe that the Bungie Store should offer Bungie-branded "asbestos underoos". They'd make at least a thousand dollars.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] spartain ken 15 I don't want to cause any trouble but I think if mods are noticing that people are flame baiting and it is going to far, they should step in. I don't think it is right to just tell you to ignore it and not even address or deal with the people causing the problem. [/quote] This is a [i]goram[/i] video game site! There is absolutely no reason why any fanaticism, from any side of such a petty issue, should require a tyrannical police force style of reaction. What is the [i]real[/i] cause of the problem you are describing here?

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] spartain ken 15 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Coxx153 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] IHaveTURRETS JR Since when has ignoring troll posts and flame bait been wrong? I'm pretty sure he's just advocating "Don't feed the troll."[/quote] [i]"If they can be subtle, are you saying that you can't be similarly sly?"[/i] - I'm pretty sure he's advocating ken to be a subtle dick back to them. [/quote] I don't want to cause any trouble but I think if mods are noticing that people are flame baiting and it is going to far, they should step in. I don't think it is right to just tell you to ignore it and not even address or deal with the people causing the problem. [/quote]Ken, I think what Recon's getting across is half of what you're saying. Ignoring the people baiting you, or not baiting you is the first step. If you don't give a response, it can't continue in the thread. Then, when you've managed to hold back a wild mud shot, you can PM a ninja if you feel action is totally necessary, or just press the report button. :) It keeps you clean, but still solves the problem.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] spartain ken 15[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Coxx153 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] IHaveTURRETS JR Since when has ignoring troll posts and flame bait been wrong? I'm pretty sure he's just advocating "Don't feed the troll."[/quote] [i]"If they can be subtle, are you saying that you can't be similarly sly?"[/i] - I'm pretty sure he's advocating ken to be a subtle dick back to them. [/quote] I don't want to cause any trouble but I think if mods are noticing that people are flame baiting and it is going to far, they should step in. I don't think it is right to just tell you to ignore it and not even address or deal with the people causing the problem. [/quote] I actually agree with ken.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Recon Number 54 Fish bite because they only see the bait and not the hook. I wish that we had more members who were wiser than most fish.[/quote] Can I use this as my sig?

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Coxx153 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] IHaveTURRETS JR Since when has ignoring troll posts and flame bait been wrong? I'm pretty sure he's just advocating "Don't feed the troll."[/quote] [i]"If they can be subtle, are you saying that you can't be similarly sly?"[/i] - I'm pretty sure he's advocating ken to be a subtle dick back to them. [/quote] I don't want to cause any trouble but I think if mods are noticing that people are flame baiting and it is going to far, they should step in. I don't think it is right to just tell you to ignore it and not even address or deal with the people causing the problem.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Coxx153 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] IHaveTURRETS JR Since when has ignoring troll posts and flame bait been wrong? I'm pretty sure he's just advocating "Don't feed the troll."[/quote] [i]"If they can be subtle, are you saying that you can't be similarly sly?"[/i] - I'm pretty sure he's advocating ken to be a subtle dick back to them. [/quote] I'd rather someone be a subtle jerk than an unsubtle one, yelling "Hark! Hark! Thou hast seen I have been transgressed upon!" more often than not.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Coxx153 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] IHaveTURRETS JR Since when has ignoring troll posts and flame bait been wrong? I'm pretty sure he's just advocating "Don't feed the troll."[/quote] [i]"If they can be subtle, are you saying that you can't be similarly sly?"[/i] - I'm pretty sure he's advocating ken to be a subtle dick back to them. [/quote] No. I am advocating being sly and not falling for the trap (replying to the subtle bait). If someone is capable of spotting overt and subtle insults and can ignore them both, then the jerk who is baiting has failed in their attempt, no matter how overt or subtle they were. Fish bite because they only see the bait and not the hook. I wish that we had more members who were wiser than most fish.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Silentone2 Let me say this tenderly: There's no way, whatsoever, to change this. It isn't a problem. And if I could give you some advice, it would be that, if you want a peaceful forum geared towards gentle discussion, the forums for a series of first person shooters popular with teenagers probably isn't the place to look.[/quote]This could not be stated more truly. Harlow, you're telling me that an online community (who's numbers reach in the hundred-thousands, possibly millons) would not be hosting innumerable amounts of users that, said respectively of course, "like to have some fun" on an online forum. I don't view the Flood as a generalized clump of trolls seeking to destroy the organization or purpose of a mature forum for everyone abound. I view them as a group of users who like to share each others thoughts on so many random, obscure topics, that I myself find amusing at most times.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] elmicker What bungie.net really needs is some sort of list whereupon people can be arbitrarily placed with no justification, banning their participation and precluding even the very discussion of their existence under pain of being added to the same list one's self. That'd make this place excellent.[/quote] You do realize that you just caused a "back to the drawing board" moment for those who are working on .Next?

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] IHaveTURRETS JR Since when has ignoring troll posts and flame bait been wrong? I'm pretty sure he's just advocating "Don't feed the troll."[/quote] [i]"If they can be subtle, are you saying that you can't be similarly sly?"[/i] - I'm pretty sure he's advocating ken to be a subtle dick back to them.

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