[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Terror Troll No, you wouldn't, you'd be quoting...[quote]You must not: * use the Service to harm others or the Service (for example, you must not use the Service to harm, threaten, or harass another person, organization or Microsoft); * damage, disable, overburden, or impair the Service (or any network connected to the Service); * resell or redistribute the Service or any part of it; use any means we don't authorize to modify, reroute, or gain access to the Service or attempt to carry out these activities; * use the Service for commercial purposes (except as expressly permitted by us); * use any automated process or service (such as a bot, a spider, a scraper, periodic caching of information stored by Microsoft, or "meta-searching") to access or use the Service or copy or "scrape" data on the Service; * use any unauthorized third-party software, service, or device to access the Service; * disrupt, or try to gain unauthorized access to any account, computer, hardware, or network related to the Service; * obtain (or try to obtain) any data from the Service or related hardware, except data that we intend to provide or make available to you; * use the Service or related hardware to design, develop, or update unauthorized software; * use or distribute unauthorized cheats, macros, or scripts; or * exploit a bug, or make an unauthorized modification, to any software or data to gain unfair advantage in a game, contest, or promotion. [/quote]which is a list of specific rules. [/quote]Specificity is exactly what is trying to be avoided with the updated rules. Plus, that doesn't say anything about PS3 or iPhone modifications, among others, unlike the current rule, which covers all platforms.

No, you wouldn't, you'd be quoting...[quote]You must not: * use the Service to harm others or the Service (for example, you must not use the Service to harm, threaten, or harass another person, organization or Microsoft); * damage, disable, overburden, or impair the Service (or any network connected to the Service); * resell or redistribute the Service or any part of it; use any means we don't authorize to modify, reroute, or gain access to the Service or attempt to carry out these activities; * use the Service for commercial purposes (except as expressly permitted by us); * use any automated process or service (such as a bot, a spider, a scraper, periodic caching of information stored by Microsoft, or "meta-searching") to access or use the Service or copy or "scrape" data on the Service; * use any unauthorized third-party software, service, or device to access the Service; * disrupt, or try to gain unauthorized access to any account, computer, hardware, or network related to the Service; * obtain (or try to obtain) any data from the Service or related hardware, except data that we intend to provide or make available to you; * use the Service or related hardware to design, develop, or update unauthorized software; * use or distribute unauthorized cheats, macros, or scripts; or * exploit a bug, or make an unauthorized modification, to any software or data to gain unfair advantage in a game, contest, or promotion. [/quote]which is a list of specific rules.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] dmbfan09 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Terror Troll [quote]The XBL ToU clearly talks about "unauthorized repairs, unauthorized upgrades, and unauthorized downloads" not being permitted. In addition, you must not "exploit a bug, or make an unauthorized modification, to any software or data to gain unfair advantage in a game, contest, or promotion."[/quote]That has nothing to do with whether modification is 'authorised' or not, that is to do with what sorts of consoles you can use to access xbl/how you should conduct yourself when using the service. You aren't discerning between 'codes of conduct' for use of services, and actual 'modification' as a standalone activity.[/quote]All that I am saying is the "unauthorized modifications" that they are referring to in the XBL ToU are the exact same "unauthorized modifications" that are not permitted to be discussed on the forums.[/quote]Hmm..I took a second to think about that and it makes sense. But, alas, the argument is still semi-valid. Those who are ignorant won't know. That's why they're called ignorant. Just...okay, so I'm being an ass with that one. But still. Yes, it's understood now that these unauthorized modifications for the use of a service that does not necessarily come with the equipment are such things that bungie has deemed not to be spoken of. So then all mods are against the rules to be discussed. But...Okay, so I could honestly argue more but my whole point on all this was about no actual over-analysis and the following argument would go into that so I concede to you.

Then why not point that out in the rules? 'Discussions of modifications the nature of which are specified within the XBL terms of use may be locked without notice and should be avoided', for instance.

Um, yeah. What about others who take it this way? Soon as this thread is off the first page your having explained the intention of the rule, Achronos, will not be out here. So it'll still be taken as it says, "dang near anything, so long as it doesn't apply to the XBL Service or equivilant 'services', can be spoken of!" and then you're going to lock a thread, issue a warning or a ban, and it's going to continue this way and then someone who got banned because your rule says different from what you intend is going to bring this back up and myself and elmicker and others are going to be right back in threads like this with you arguing about whether or not to take out the word or just change the sentence in an equivilent manner. Why not just take the bloody word out and get the issue over with now, Achronos? Makes no sense to me. You take the word out, you don't have to worry about people like myself, elmicker, and others bantering at you and bungie about how the rule says we can't talk about one thing and then you ban us for another that doesn't even actually apply according to how the rule is worded. Don't know how many times it has to be said, Achronos. Yes, [i]we[/i], who have read your post and understand your intent because you [i]told us[/i] in [i]this thread[/i]. But others who havent and won't are not going to know your intent without someone out here making some kind of retarded announcement. So why not show your intent by actually changing the rule to what you intend it to be instead of some misconstrewed (sp?? dont know how to spell it.. sad faice) fraction of the idea of what you want to say? It's honestly mind boggling as to why you won't just take out one simple word and make your intent clear instead of having to get into discussions like this that apparently try your patience and having to explain your intent over and over? And no...your rule, as stated many many many times, does not show what you and bungie actually intend with the rule. It shows a fraction of that intent and the rest has to be constantly explained. Again once again I'm repeating myself. Post done. EDIT: And as also said, yes, XBL TOU prohibits modding Xboxs. Except there is no actual agreement for the use of the xbox that prohibits such modding. They just don't like people f-ing with their stuff while using the xbl service because it can cause unfair advantages, taking advantage of the service in truely illegal manners such as theft and plenty of other things...and yet there is no agreement to the use of the xbox itself that makes moddifications unauthorized. It's merely for a specific service. Not the same thing. [Edited on 01.26.2011 6:13 PM PST]

Please stop murdering the English language :/

I say the rule is easy to understand even if some people don't grasp the concept of being open minded and trying to understand it. But for those people whom refuse to understand or continue to follow the same old rules as before are just stubborn and got nothing better to do then nitpick at a single word. Yet I agree with them when it comes to new members misinterpreting the rule, but for the most part com'on guys we all know and understand what it mean, The rules haven't changed just the way it is worded. So there is really no need to make a fuss about something we can all comprehend. [Edited on 01.26.2011 6:01 PM PST]

[quote]For now, I think we're good, and we'll revisit this issue later if it becomes a real problem instead of a theoretical one.[/quote]So you admit that there [i]is[/i] a problem? Why not just reword it now and be done?

[quote]The XBL ToU clearly talks about "unauthorized repairs, unauthorized upgrades, and unauthorized downloads" not being permitted. In addition, you must not "exploit a bug, or make an unauthorized modification, to any software or data to gain unfair advantage in a game, contest, or promotion."[/quote]That has nothing to do with whether modification is 'authorised' or not, that is to do with what sorts of consoles you can use to access xbl/how you should conduct yourself when using the service. You aren't discerning between 'codes of conduct' for use of services, and actual 'modification' as a standalone activity.

I don't think there is any point in continuing to talk to you.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Stacker [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Terror Troll [url=http://myfacewhen.com/images/14.jpg]'Dumbing down' now means the same thing as 'making sense'.[/url][/quote]Yes, making sense to dumb people. :P[/quote] Well I can agree to that too lol:P QUIT making me agree to everything makes me look stoopid lol.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Terror Troll [url=http://myfacewhen.com/images/14.jpg]'Dumbing down' now means the same thing as 'making sense'.[/url][/quote]Yes, making sense to dumb people. :P

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Terror Troll [url=http://myfacewhen.com/images/14.jpg]'Dumbing down' now means the same thing as 'making sense'.[/url][/quote] Deeeespickable! Well okay lets use 'making sense' instead. Good point 'dumb' is not the word. I see wut u did thar. [Edited on 01.26.2011 5:28 PM PST]

[url=http://myfacewhen.com/images/14.jpg]'Dumbing down' now means the same thing as 'making sense'.[/url]

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Stacker [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Terror Troll It's not dumbing down. It's un-dumbing, to make a rule which actually makes sense.[/quote]Same difference.[/quote] It really is troll. Read the edit.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Terror Troll It's not dumbing down. It's un-dumbing, to make a rule which actually makes sense.[/quote]Same difference.

It's not dumbing down. It's un-dumbing, to make a rule which actually makes sense.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Stacker [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Terror Troll I'm 'logically illiterate' for knowing that I own my own property and don't require 'authorisation' to modify it?[/quote]lol, no, Troll. He just said you're one of the logically smart people. He was saying the ones who can't understand the rule is kind of rediculous and doesn't say what is intended are the logically illiterate...or he is just saying dumb it down to "No mod discussion."[/quote] Both thank you stacker lol. Dumb it down not so much but to a sense yes where we don't need a 2 day argument to come to terms with what the damn rule states lol. I am not calling anyone stupid. I just think that we can all agree that in the context of what achronos was trying to achieve got mixed up and now there a big fuss over one damn word. Replace the word or reword the rule problem solved. It would have been solved 48hrs ago if that simple task was done. [Edited on 01.26.2011 5:26 PM PST]

Your post doesn't make any sense.

Yes Primum, I am aware of the differences between XBL ToU and console stuff. But as a statement of intent, how valid would you say that the XBL ToU is? Or are you going to argue that MS haven't stated that they feel that console modding is bad? I'm not citing that because it is proof of anything, but rather as an example of the general vibe off MS that modding is bad. This is why they ban people from XBL for it, this is why they void warranty for it, this is why they make it illegal to install your own HDD onto xbox slims. Pages behind? I've read the whole thing and it hasn't moved since page 3. You've argued that a manufacturer has no rights, then there was some crap sidetrack about Mr Crippen, and then that all got cancelled. Manufacturer having no 'rights' makes no difference here. Take a little step back, look at the point which is being made. You're picking about words in a massively obtuse manner when the spirit of the rule is very plain to see. MS don't like Xbox modding, so regardless of what legal rights they have, don't talk about it. In public. The proposed changes (unauthorised discussion, as opposed to discussion of unauthorised) puts the burden of regulation on the webteam. Except that isn't the point, the point is honouring the wishes of MS and people like them. If the proposed changes reflected the wishes of the web team, then I have little doubt that they would implement them. But the changed meaning which goes into your changed wording, and the subsequent rejection of that meaning, gives us a small insight into the minds of the higher-ups. [Edited on 01.26.2011 5:40 PM PST]

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Terror Troll I'm 'logically illiterate' for knowing that I own my own property and don't require 'authorisation' to modify it?[/quote]lol, no, Troll. He just said you're one of the logically smart people. He was saying the ones who can't understand the rule is kind of rediculous and doesn't say what is intended are the logically illiterate...or he is just saying dumb it down to "No mod discussion."