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#Halo

11/28/2010 8:13:57 PM
34

Campaign battle sizes: the truth revealed

There's been quite a lot of talk about bungie not keeping their promise of Reach having large campaign battles. The promised numbers, originating from the Once More unto the Breach ViDoc, are: -Old halos had about 20 enemies on screen at once -Reach can have 40 enemy AI -Or twenty vehicles -Versus the player and a dozen friendly AI -Or, alternatively, the game can handle 40 AI at once, which means ten UNSC vs 30 Covenant. Now there's no question about ground vehicle battles being smaller than those in previous Halos. But what about infantry encounters? Or aerial combat? I set out to find out the truth because I like truths. I played the campaign through on Legendary solo, earning a legit Onyx commendation in the progress. I examined each saved film, counting every enemy and ally, figuring out the size of each battle. After 10 hours of theater (made easier by you, bungie forums) and one monument to all my sins, I've completed a thousand row text file that lists every enemy, marine, trooper, spartan and occupied vehicle in the game. Now this entire document is mainly pointless. When it comes to the question of "40 AI or not", who cares if there are 4 enemies in 'Reception'? So I'll only list interesting results here; the big battles. If someone really cares because they're writing a guide or something, I can upload the full .txt. Some details on conventions: -Solo Legendary. Co-op encounters often have more enemies. I may check the maximum numbers after I've amassed a collection of 4-player legendary films from all levels. -BOBs are not counted. I didn't even know many I saw existed. -Each separate weapon seat of a vehicle counts. So a phantom with gunners is 3 enemies, while a falcon with 2 gunners but no chingun is 2 allies. -I will blatantly assume survival of all UNSC units. Vehicular manipulation is also condoned. These are maximum numbers. [u][b]And now to the numbers.[/b][/u] Largest amounts of enemies in one battle: -Glacier wave 1: 50 enemies -Relay defense: 43 enemies -Olympic Tower: 43 enemies -Larger attack force (LNoS): 41 enemies -Beachhead: 39 enemies -BXR Mining facility: 38 enemies -Ardent Prayer: 36 enemies (AP itself counts as 9) -Glacier Wave 2: 36 enemies -Canyon: 35 enemies -Waterfront defense: 32 enemies -Sword Base atrium: 32 enemies -AA gun 2: 30 enemies Largest amounts of UNSC AI in one battle: -Beachhead: 17 troopers -Exodus turret section: 13 firing troopers -Sword Base Atrium: 12 UNSC soldiers -Holdout: 10 marines -AA gun 2: 10 UNSC soldiers -Return to Sword Base (Package): 9 UNSC soldiers -Executive landing pad: 8 UNSC soldiers -Glacier: 7 UNSC machine-and-nerves -Airview base (Package): 7 UNSC soldiers Largest amounts of enemy vehicles in ground battles: -Glacier worst case scenario: 10 -Airview Base (Package): 9 -Beachhead: 8 -Return to Sword Base (Package): 7 Largest UNSC vehicle forces: -6 on the package: 2 falcons, tank, whatever the ODSTs drive. -6 on Long Night of Solace: 5 sabres, Anchor 9 / UNSC Savannah -5 on beachead: 2 warthogs, 2 mongooses, falcon dropping troopers Largest active vehicle amounts in ground battles: -Airview base: 15 -Return to Sword Base: 13 -Beachhead: 13 -Glacier worst case scenario: 11 Largest total AI amounts: -Glacier Wave 1: 57 AI -Beachhead: 56 AI -Olympic tower: 48 AI -Exodus turret section: 48 AI -Larger attack force (LNoS): 47 AI -Relay Defense: 46 AI -Sword Base Atrium: 44 AI -Ardent Prayer: 44 AI -Glacier wave 2: 43 AI -AA gun 2: 40 AI There, done. Remember, many of these battles are what they are. Remember what they are like in the campaign and decide for yourself if that big number means anything. There are a few which I think are rather meaningless. Questions welcome.
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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] OctalLord[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] LonE ZealoT[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Secret Agent94 The campaign still felt pretty linear. They promised us a Sandbox type game. If it were like that, the enemies would feel more spread out and it the battles would have felt more large-scale..[/quote] Link to proof.[/quote]I don't have a link but I know they originally inteded Tip Of the Spear to start with a massive large scale open landscape for you to run around and shoot stuff in. I think it's in the making of videos that came with Legendary.[/quote][url=http://www.bungie.net/Forums/posts.aspx?postID=56914955&postRepeater1-p=1]Look what Bungie sacrificed for graphics.[/url] ^This thread.
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  • Good work. My own opinion after playing the Reach Campaign was that the infantry fights were great, especially on Exodus, but vehicle combat was lacking somewhat. Which is a shame, because it's one of my favourite aspects of the Halo campaigns and it's something Reach could have done far better.
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  • Its impressive and good, I like they numbers here, good job.
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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] ashton287 Cool that you put the effort in But when playing the campaign i was never really impressed with the amount of enemies. Never really felt like "oh Shiznit, im fu***d".[/quote]Yeah, that was a big problem. You never felt wrapped up in a large scale engagement. I think it's because you fought them in pockets, instead of at once. You'd take out a group and then advance to the next batch. I would have liked to have a bunch of them strike in one area, where you could clearly see forces in the front lines, in the middle and at the back (with weapons suited to their position), strafing and changing vantage points. I just wanted to feel overwhelmed by the odds. I'm listening to Halo 2's 'Earth City' and right now, as I type, and I can picture it. It looks amazing. Levels that came close were Pillar of Autumn, the beginning of Sword Base and the Exodus finale when you're rushing to the final switch and a load of Covies are dropped off. I don't really like to count Firefight-like levels; such as Lone Wolf and he glacier section of the Package.
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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] OniLink147 The only thing I was disappointed with was I wanted to play the opening cutscene on Tip of the Spear.[/quote] I was looking forward to that too. Watching the huge waves of UNSC and Covenant charging each was awe inspiring but then kat ruined it by being a bad driver jumped over a bridge while it was being blown up.
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  • Cool that you put the effort in But when playing the campaign i was never really impressed with the amount of enemies. Never really felt like "oh Shiznit, im fu***d".
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  • I think there's a difference between numbers and 'epicness' The battles of Two Betrayals where there were 3 sides fighting each other and you in the middle of all it - they felt epic. I do think the enemy AI having multiple factions with Covie, Flood and Sentinels and all the amazing gameplay that resulted hasn't been recaptured. [Edited on 01.12.2011 10:50 AM PST]
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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] AxJARxOFxDIRT I applaud you for this work and it's good to be able to prove Bungie does what they say.[/quote]
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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] LonE ZealoT [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Secret Agent94 The campaign still felt pretty linear. They promised us a Sandbox type game. If it were like that, the enemies would feel more spread out and it the battles would have felt more large-scale..[/quote] Link to proof.[/quote] I don't have a link but I know they originally inteded Tip Of the Spear to start with a massive large scale open landscape for you to run around and shoot stuff in. I think it's in the making of videos that came with Legendary.
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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Secret Agent94 The campaign still felt pretty linear. They promised us a Sandbox type game. If it were like that, the enemies would feel more spread out and it the battles would have felt more large-scale..[/quote] Link to proof.
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  • The campaign still felt pretty linear. They promised us a Sandbox type game. If it were like that, the enemies would feel more spread out and it the battles would have felt more large-scale..
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  • You should get paid for thsi kind of thing. I thought the battles were big indeed. What i think the community thought was going to be 40 + UNSC vs 40+ Covvies, which whould be lagtacular and the player would have no idea who was shooting or where their individual target has dissapeared.
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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] AxJARxOFxDIRT I applaud you for this work and it's good to be able to prove Bungie does what they say.[/quote] I agree with this sentiment.
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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] OniLink147 The only thing I was disappointed with was I wanted to play the opening cutscene on Tip of the Spear.[/quote] man that would have been awesome...
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  • The only thing I was disappointed with was I wanted to play the opening cutscene on Tip of the Spear.
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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Mutoid Log [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] MattKestrel Heh. It never really felt like there were a lot of enemies in most levels, apart from Exodus for some reason (like the bit immediately after you get the Jetpack)[/quote]You get constant replacements for dead bullfrogs at that part, and the last three encounters of the level have 8, 13 and 18 AI respectively.[/quote] since you looked around in theatre you must know, where do the civilians come from when you get to the pad? because you leave them behind when you get in the elevator, but they appear later and they cant have came the same way, because you need a jetpack. its something that has been bothering me
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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] AxJARxOFxDIRT I applaud you for this work and it's good to be able to prove Bungie does what they say.[/quote]
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  • very nice. so they did basically max out their AI counts. I am still a little disappointed at the size of the vehicle sections though, theynever seemed as large scale as some of halo 3s
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  • Hah I guess that explains the ridiculous screen lag on the Glacier part of The Package. Nice thread. [Edited on 11.28.2010 12:51 PM PST]
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  • Interesssssting.
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  • very nice thread! I wonder how your data of Reach would compare if also applied to previous Halo titles. Makes me want to go and play through Glacier again
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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Agent Peeps It would be interesting to bump this against halo 3 or Halo 2's largest battles. The battle on the Ark, the first one before the map room, for instance felt really large and expansive but we were also doing battle with a Scarab, against multiple Wraiths and choppers. (One of my favorite battles btw)[/quote]Yeah. 3 and ODST have saved films without rewinding, so it would still be pretty easy. But 2 and 1 have no films, so it's going to be much harder. Though I did count the enemies on Final run once, with the final portion having 32. And vehicular battle numbers are much easier to remember, for example The Cartographer Sandbox had 3 scorpions and a gauss hog versus 4 wraiths, 6 ghosts, ~10 choppers, 1 Scarab, 1 phantom and ~10 infantry for 4 vs 32.
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  • You're awesome. Congrats on doing that and winning the support of one b.net member.
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  • Props to you, for doing this monumental task.
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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] ME NUMBER 1 1 thing for sure, reach has more enemies onscreen and those aliens do have some fast dancing evading moves like Goddamn.[/quote]
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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] MattKestrel Heh. It never really felt like there were a lot of enemies in most levels, apart from Exodus for some reason (like the bit immediately after you get the Jetpack)[/quote]You get constant replacements for dead bullfrogs at that part, and the last three encounters of the level have 8, 13 and 18 AI respectively.
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