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Edited by ben: 2/2/2022 6:09:31 AM
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The problem with hand cannons and the solution - from a hand cannon user

Hand cannons have always been my favourite weapons in this game. I have 100,000 kills with them in PvP which is more than the majority of players will ever have in overall PvP kills. I think they are the most fun, most versatile, highest skillgap primaries in the game. I have always come to their defense, saying hand cannons are skill cannons and deserve to be the meta or that they can be countered by other primaries. But I have come to the realization in the past few months, as I have gotten bored and branched out into other loadouts, that the claim that they are unbalanced in the current primary sandbox is utterly undeniable. There are a few concrete, tangible reasons why hand cand cannons are more practical and versatile than any other primary. 1. Zoom magnification Not many people know this but zoom magnification is one of the biggest reasons as to why hand cannons are better than other primaries. Just like with snipers, the shorter zoom scope you have the easier it is to acquire targets quickly and accurately after aiming down the sight. With high zoom rifles, it is disorienting to aim down sight and find your target. With a hand cannon it is easy. If you dont believe me try slide challenging someone while using an eyasluna and then do it with a night watch. 2. Handling Hand cannons tend to have a higher handling stat than rifles. This makes switching to your weapon and aiming down the sight very quick, and when paired with the low zoom it makes them very servicable in 1v1s. 3. In air accuracy It is no secret that hand cannons are the only primaries, except maybe SMGs, with perfect in air accuracy. Even without icarus grip, weapons like thorn and ace of spades still have a decent chance to connect headshots. Compare this to other primaries which are not only inaccurate in the air (try jumpshotting with an auto that doesnt have icarus... lmao) but they are just extremely awkward to use in the air, largely because of the previous points. You cant very easily fly through the air gunning someone down with an auto rifle but you absolutely can with a hand cannon. 4. Damage per shot Despite not always winning in time to kill, hand cannons have by far the highest damage per shot in the game unless you consider a pulse rifle burst a shot which I don't think anyone should. One shot, which can be fired off instantly, can do 70-80 damage which is over a third of a player's health. This leaves them severely disadvantaged and effectively incapacitates them. In that same amount of time, say they were using an auto rifle, they wouldve done maybe 40 or 50 damage to you. If played correctly, you can win a hand cannon fight while only exposing yourself for less than half of the time to kill of a normal primary. Peekers advantage in this game makes this easy to abuse. 5. Hip fire accuracy Aside from smgs and maybe sidearms, hand cannons are the most accurate primaries while hipfiring. This just adds to versatility. 6. Less flinch intake; easier to hit shots through flinch I cant prove this anywhere but anyone who plays knows it is true. Hand cannons cause a lot of flinch, they dont take in much, and it doesnt really matter anyway because you only have to hit 3 shots. With auto rifles you have to hit 8-10 shots, with pulses 2 or 3 full precise bursts, hand cannons its just 3 bullets that you have to hit and they are not hard to hit. Compared to, say, you are trying to hit your auto rifle shots through hand cannons flinch. You wont hit enough to out TTK them. 7. Advantageous for slide peeking It is no secret that slide challenging in this game is extremely powerful, but it is mostly for hand cannons, and this is pretty much because of what Ive listed above, specifically low zoom and high handling. It is very easy to slide out and acquire a target, and instantly start damaging them. Wormhaven bridges for example; the lane is long enough that you can see people on radar when they stand on the other side, and there's only one place for them to be, so you slide out prefiring and they can't do anything if they have a hand cannon themselves much less if they had anything else; theyd get flinched off before they could even aim in. Same with pantheon spawns and Jav-4 blue spawn that you can radar from rock wall. 8. Catch-all range Hand cannons are most effective under 30m, and the average engagement distance according to destinytracker is around 16m. There are outliers, but for the most part, hand cannons have the perfect range for encounters on destiny maps. Pulses and scouts would be better if the maps were bigger. 9. Stability doesnt really matter At least on pc, because HCs shoot so slow and you have to wait for the recoil to reset no matter, you dont really need stability to hit your shots. These are the best reasons I could think of in terms of why hand cannons are objectively, by design, the best PvP option for the primary slot. And what do I propose? Buff all other primaries hard. A blanket buff. Not to damage. Decrease the zoom magnification on all rifles, increase the handling on all rifles, increase the stability on all rifles, improve in air accuracy for all rifles, decrease flinch intake on all rifles. Do all of this, and reevaluate where we stand with the meta. I guarantee that these changes alone, without even touching TTK or nerfing hand cannons at all, will bring more balance than we have now. The TTK charts indicate that the meta is not a product of HCs having the fastest time to kill so we need to look at the bigger picture of what it is that makes hand cannons see so much more use than other guns. In my time experimenting with other primaries, there is ONE weapon I have found that holds a candle to hand cannons, including 2kd tryhard devout hand cannon using rumble players. I have used this gun in rumble, the only PvP playlist I play, and have maintained, even improved, my 90% winrate. The weapon is No time to explain. Unlike DMT, which is very good, it is consistent; Im not ever dying because of this game's wonky hip fire hit detection. It has basically infinite range, but it also works extremely well up close and is amazingly easy to hit shots with because the zoom magnification is some of the lowest on any rifle. The handling is stellar for a rifle. The damage output is extremely strong, being a high impact pulse it does 36 to the head which is enough to kill someone in two bursts even if two of your six bullets are bodyshots, and with Time's chasm active you get a flat extra 33 damage for a total of a potential 141 damage in one burst. Insane. Like I said I have taken this weapon into rumble and it absolutely embarasses top 1% hand cannon users, sometimes even making them rage swap to it. If every rifle was this good the game would be way more balanced. So... do that. Examine what makes no time to explain good (aside from time's chasm) and do it to every rifle. Insane base stats and high ease of use. The sandbox will be better than ever, I guarantee it. If you want another example look at vex mythoclast. Same damage profile as a 360 rpm auto rifle but instead of the useless 80+ range on that archetype it has extremely high stability. The shots are easy to keep on a target's head and they hit HARD (36). The zoom is low, the handling is high, and the gun ramps up in damage as you get kills to a max of 45 damage per headshot. It also broke the meta when it first came out and it is still pretty fantastically good even though it is basically just a glorified auto rifle which you would think would suck. What makes it different? Do it to every rifle.
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  • HC: revert back to 150, nerf range and remove flinch inducing perks and reduce bodyshot damage since its supposed to be a precision weapon archetype Autos: buff 600 back to season 10 values it wasn't that bad and 150s still competed Pulses: remove lightweight frame they are useless in the current sandbox and either make them aggressive or some other frame Sidearms: give them a slight bump in bodyshot damage to help combat shotguns and tlw Smgs: somethings gotta be done with precision and aggressive frame smgs maybe more range for the ones that aren't shayura and multimach. Scouts: bigger maps need to be introduced dmt needs some sort of hip fire damage or range reduction since it's 150 rpm and reduce bodyshot damage since its supposed to be a precision weapon archetype Snipers: make flinch go side to side not up and down and reduce bodyshot damage since its supposed to be a precision weapon archetype Shotguns: reduce bodyshot damge on slugs and chappy. And nerf either chappy range or rate of fire Bows: reduce bodyshot damage since its supposed to be a precision weapon archetype Linear: reduce aim assist or give more flinch and reduce bodyshot damage since its supposed to be a precision weapon archetype Fusions: reduce charge time of high impact. 1000 charge time should be reserved for heavy weapons. The main ingredient is the only fusion that's representing in the crucible atm so the entire weapon type shouldn't suffer because of one I'd personally leave it alone Thoughts?

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  • 1. Zoom Magnification That's a PC thing 2. Handling Other guns have good handling too 3. In air accuracy That's a PC thing 4. Damage per shot Fair argument 5. Hip fire accuracy That's a PC thing 6. Less flinch That's a PC thing 7. Advantageous for slide peeking That's a PC thing 8. Catch-all range Just....no 9. Stability doesn't matter That's a PC thing So sick of this platform bias. HC's are meta on PC, and always will be, because they are the definition of point and click shooting, and mnk makes them dumb easy to use. On console they are actually nuanced and different, and the meta is way more balanced (pulses are really on top in my view). The only HC's that get abused on console are Last Word and Crimson. Every other one is perfectly fine where it is.

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    • What makes hand canons good isn’t something that exactly can be nerfed without completely taking away the name “hand canon” I mean it’s single shots that’s like taking away in air accuracy bc you can’t. I use lumina, that is currently one of the most skillful guns in the game. What gives is some ability to use in air is just the single shots. So basically what a lot of the hc haters think is the best about them, is something that is imbedded in the gun and can’t be rid of. But I like how your solution is more of a “buff” weapons instead of nerf hcs. Because I believe that everyone should be able to use what they want and not feel it’s been hit hard and therefore can’t compete in areas that you want it to. I’ve said this before, and I think you can agree with this. The reason hcs are on top is mostly because people love them. So it would make crucible a lot more… I would say lacking without using what you do enjoy. I know people love using ARs, Pulses, sidearms so it would be best for those people to get the same treatment as the hand canon lovers, right? Like everything else guns have an advantage and a disadvantage. That’s why we shouldn’t undermine the players using what they love. Which is what causals do to hand canons, and hand canon users do to pulses. So create an equilibrium for all weapons. I will add though that I think there are so many better primaries. I’m not undermining anything, I’m not saying this is a valid reason but I think people don’t understand that there are better, and competing options. Shayuras wrath for example. I use V-wing a lot, I absolutely love it, I’ll use it in trials all the time. I use scathelock, mida, extraordinary rendition etc. So overall I do think the primary options are diverse in what is good, but there should be an equal status for other weapons in what they can do compared to hand canons such as in-air accuracy.

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    • Hand cannons are extra stupid on MnK because MnK grants bonus stability and more importantly ACCURACY. Several of the points you made are much more apparent on MnK than controller. Now, to add to this conversation: -at higher levels, utility is king, and always will be. Hand cannons, because of their damage profile and accuracy combination will always be king even if autos got similar buffs. (The auto buffs you mentioned basically turn them in to longer range SMGs and invalidate SMGs so… idk) -I would wager that a large majority of players using hand cannons would be better off using pulses since MOST players in destiny truly don’t have the skill set to actually utilize the actual benefits of a hand cannon (seriously how often do you see average players just taking wide open, no cover, flat footed on the ground duels with their hand cannons) -usage rates will almost always follow what’s most effective at the high levels, despite it not being the most effective at lower levels because players will get farmed by a good player using X weapon and then imediately slap it on thinking it must be better for them. -flinch reception is tied to zoom value, which is why higher zoom weapons struggle with flinch. Primary flinch across the board needs toned down. -auto rifles need to have a base range and recoil direction buff, so they generally out range hand cannons. Also having good base recoil direction would open up the mod slot for Icarus or other game altering mods rather than the most commonly used counterbalance. -pulses are low key fire when rolled/played right

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      • At every point you made you forgot bows. With highest per shot damage and perfect hipfire and in air accuracy 🥳

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        • Somebody is making sense 👍🏻

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        • Nice thoughtful post....but I'm afraid it will fall on the deaf ears. Not Bungie's....but the PVP community. We have a perpetual hand cannon meta, because the PVP community simply WILL NOT ACCEPT anything else. Despite all the advantages that hand cannons have (and that you thoughtfully outlined) there is still this MYTH that hand cannons are the only "skill" primary. When the fact is (as Cool Guy put it) "You're basically shooting CANNON BALLS at other players, when they're using regular bullets" whenever you use a hand cannon. They are RIDICULOUSLY easy to use on PC. Especially if you play with a controller, and get the aim-assist boost along with the low-recoil on PC. Every time any weapon that isn't a hand cannon starts to the threaten the dominance of hand cannons, the WHINING is immediate...and UNENDING until Bungie finally nerfs it...and we go BACK to the hand cannon meta.

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          • Edited by McNutInYoCereal: 2/3/2022 8:47:22 PM
            I think the range is fine as is but reduce the stability and aim assist. My precision ratio is proof of just how insane the AA is and I was thinking maybe 50-55 aim assist? I dunno but maybe they should have 0 AA for a bit to see how they hold up cause I shouldn't be nailing headshot kills left and right

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          • Edited by IFxmto: 2/2/2022 7:12:18 PM
            [quote]Hand cannons have always been my favourite weapons in this game. I have 100,000 kills with them in PvP which is more than the majority of players will ever have in overall PvP kills. I think they are the most fun, most versatile, highest skillgap primaries in the game. I have always come to their defense, saying hand cannons are skill cannons and deserve to be the meta or that they can be countered by other primaries. But I have come to the realization in the past few months, as I have gotten bored and branched out into other loadouts, that the claim that they are unbalanced in the current primary sandbox is utterly undeniable. There are a few concrete, tangible reasons why hand cand cannons are more practical and versatile than any other primary. 1. Zoom magnification Not many people know this but zoom magnification is one of the biggest reasons as to why hand cannons are better than other primaries. Just like with snipers, the shorter zoom scope you have the easier it is to acquire targets quickly and accurately after aiming down the sight. With high zoom rifles, it is disorienting to aim down sight and find your target. With a hand cannon it is easy. If you dont believe me try slide challenging someone while using an eyasluna and then do it with a night watch. 2. Handling Hand cannons tend to have a higher handling stat than rifles. This makes switching to your weapon and aiming down the sight very quick, and when paired with the low zoom it makes them very servicable in 1v1s. 3. In air accuracy It is no secret that hand cannons are the only primaries, except maybe SMGs, with perfect in air accuracy. Even without icarus grip, weapons like thorn and ace of spades still have a decent chance to connect headshots. Compare this to other primaries which are not only inaccurate in the air (try jumpshotting with an auto that doesnt have icarus... lmao) but they are just extremely awkward to use in the air, largely because of the previous points. You cant very easily fly through the air gunning someone down with an auto rifle but you absolutely can with a hand cannon. 4. Damage per shot Despite not always winning in time to kill, hand cannons have by far the highest damage per shot in the game unless you consider a pulse rifle burst a shot which I don't think anyone should. One shot, which can be fired off instantly, can do 70-80 damage which is over a third of a player's health. This leaves them severely disadvantaged and effectively incapacitates them. In that same amount of time, say they were using an auto rifle, they wouldve done maybe 40 or 50 damage to you. If played correctly, you can win a hand cannon fight while only exposing yourself for less than half of the time to kill of a normal primary. Peekers advantage in this game makes this easy to abuse. 5. Hip fire accuracy Aside from smgs and maybe sidearms, hand cannons are the most accurate primaries while hipfiring. This just adds to versatility. 6. Less flinch intake; easier to hit shots through flinch I cant prove this anywhere but anyone who plays knows it is true. Hand cannons cause a lot of flinch, they dont take in much, and it doesnt really matter anyway because you only have to hit 3 shots. With auto rifles you have to hit 8-10 shots, with pulses 2 or 3 full precise bursts, hand cannons its just 3 bullets that you have to hit and they are not hard to hit. Compared to, say, you are trying to hit your auto rifle shots through hand cannons flinch. You wont hit enough to out TTK them. 7. Advantageous for slide peeking It is no secret that slide challenging in this game is extremely powerful, but it is mostly for hand cannons, and this is pretty much because of what Ive listed above, specifically low zoom and high handling. It is very easy to slide out and acquire a target, and instantly start damaging them. Wormhaven bridges for example; the lane is long enough that you can see people on radar when they stand on the other side, and there's only one place for them to be, so you slide out prefiring and they can't do anything if they have a hand cannon themselves much less if they had anything else; theyd get flinched off before they could even aim in. Same with pantheon spawns and Jav-4 blue spawn that you can radar from rock wall. 8. Catch-all range Hand cannons are most effective under 30m, and the average engagement distance according to destinytracker is around 16m. There are outliers, but for the most part, hand cannons have the perfect range for encounters on destiny maps. Pulses and scouts would be better if the maps were bigger. 9. Stability doesnt really matter At least on pc, because HCs shoot so slow and you have to wait for the recoil to reset no matter, you dont really need stability to hit your shots. These are the best reasons I could think of in terms of why hand cannons are objectively, by design, the best PvP option for the primary slot. And what do I propose? Buff all other primaries hard. A blanket buff. Not to damage. Decrease the zoom magnification on all rifles, increase the handling on all rifles, increase the stability on all rifles, improve in air accuracy for all rifles, decrease flinch intake on all rifles. Do all of this, and reevaluate where we stand with the meta. I guarantee that these changes alone, without even touching TTK or nerfing hand cannons at all, will bring more balance than we have now. The TTK charts indicate that the meta is not a product of HCs having the fastest time to kill so we need to look at the bigger picture of what it is that makes hand cannons see so much more use than other guns. In my time experimenting with other primaries, there is ONE weapon I have found that holds a candle to hand cannons, including 2kd tryhard devout hand cannon using rumble players. I have used this gun in rumble, the only PvP playlist I play, and have maintained, even improved, my 90% winrate. The weapon is No time to explain. Unlike DMT, which is very good, it is consistent; Im not ever dying because of this game's wonky hip fire hit detection. It has basically infinite range, but it also works extremely well up close and is amazingly easy to hit shots with because the zoom magnification is some of the lowest on any rifle. The handling is stellar for a rifle. The damage output is extremely strong, being a high impact pulse it does 36 to the head which is enough to kill someone in two bursts even if two of your six bullets are bodyshots, and with Time's chasm active you get a flat extra 33 damage for a total of a potential 141 damage in one burst. Insane. Like I said I have taken this weapon into rumble and it absolutely embarasses top 1% hand cannon users, sometimes even making them rage swap to it. If every rifle was this good the game would be way more balanced. So... do that. Examine what makes no time to explain good (aside from time's chasm) and do it to every rifle. Insane base stats and high ease of use. The sandbox will be better than ever, I guarantee it. If you want another example look at vex mythoclast. Same damage profile as a 360 rpm auto rifle but instead of the useless 80+ range on that archetype it has extremely high stability. The shots are easy to keep on a target's head and they hit HARD (36). The zoom is low, the handling is high, and the gun ramps up in damage as you get kills to a max of 45 damage per headshot. It also broke the meta when it first came out and it is still pretty fantastically good even though it is basically just a glorified auto rifle which you would think would suck. What makes it different? Do it to every rifle.[/quote] As a HC main and Rumble demon that I am, I do think they need a AA nerf for sure. And as for range, I think they need a range CAP, not a flat nerf. If you flat nerf HC range, this does two things: 1- Makes Range even more important while keeping guns like Pali and Ace even more used. 2- Hurts the low range HCs alot and forces them to compete against SMGs like Multimach and Shayura’s which are incredibly strong right now. Make it so HCs cap at a certain range. So guns like Thorn which has abysmal range, stay the same and guns like Pali don’t kill at 37+ meters.

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            • Nerfing aa would solve great problem

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            • Good, well thought out post. Like the idea of buffing other weapons to counter handcannons instead of nerfing those.

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            • Hand cannons having nothing close to perfect in air accuracy with out Icarus grip lol. Hints reason why you don’t really see to many exotic handcannons in scrims and other high level tournaments.

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              • I think a lot of the post is pretty spot on here. But I disagree with buffing the entire primary sandbox to match Hand Cannons. That was already done, and while I enjoyed the 600 ARs being meta alongside 150s, I can't deny that having something similar to that would probably overall not be a good decision. Very broadly speaking, at least among primaries, I think the balancing is pretty good in the absence of Hand Cannons, ARs needing buffs and certain pulses needing some give and take overall. The problem for me with Hand Cannons is they are simply a bloated toolkit. Since Destiny designs it's guns around fulfilling a certain role or having a certain toolkit, this is a problem. Hand Cannons are the epitome of a limited downside Swiss Army knife. So here's my general issues, and they're mirrored among a lot of the community: 1. They have too much range overall. Because most HCs don't falloff until 30-32 meters when properly rolled, this builds into an issue where there really isn't a reason to run a primary that specializes into range much, especially since Pulses trade versitility and ease of use for more oomph, but their advantage is only 3-5 meters for the most part. Noticable, sure, but frequently not worth giving up the easier, more flexible gun. I don't mind revolvers being able to reach long ranges in games, but the problem with HCs is that they're still really good in those 15-25 meter engagements, unlike revolvers optimized as pocket snipers/DMRs in other games. 2. Their ease of use is far too high. Based on my hand testing, Hand Cannons when in their "sweet spot" (where they have the most aim assist) have about a third bigger hotboxes than other guns. This is correlated by Joe Blackburn saying they have the largest aim assist cones of any weapon, bigger than the likes of even Lorentz. This means that the already extremely versatile guns also demand the overall least from the user to get the most out of the weapons. 3. The flinch output just simply masks what little downsides they have. Sure, the HCs have overall times to kill ranging from mediocre to slow, but with flinch as high overall as it currently is, it's really difficult to adequately fight back due to the flinch you take being so severe. So for what I'd do: - I'd reduce the aim assist cone size around 30-35% to make it more in line with other primaries - I'd knock the range down a flat 3 meters, so most HCs would fall roughly where your average ARs will reach (keep in mind the 14 zoom makes your range stat have less impact on your actual reach than other weapons). - I'd reduce the flinch output across the board, and fix Crimson applying full HC flinch across all 3 bullets of the burst (weird oversight doesn't cut the flinch beyond the natural reduction via the lower per-bullet damage) And before you say "what about 180s?" I have that covered: - 180 HCs I'd buff to 210 RPM, allowing them to kill ever so slightly faster than a 140, although damage might need to be played with a little as to not let them damage boost to 3 shots as easy. But that's a different story. - 120s I'd say bump to 85 per crit, allowing for 2-bangs on low Resilience values for things like Rampage x1 (2-taps below I believe 4 Resilience, 187 total damage).

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                • Honestly I think they're fine on console. Smaller aim assist cone, less in-air accuracy, slower movement so tracking weapons can compete better, more recoil and bloom. They're still good but nowhere near as dominant as on pc.

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                • Edited by FataLVisioN_Oo: 2/3/2022 2:13:00 PM
                  So what I got out of this is buff auto rifles? Ok 🤷‍♂️

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                • Upvote… Good read.

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                • Bungie will nerf all pulse rifles and fusion rifles. They cannot and are incapable of looking at what works well and spreading that favor. They have never done that in their entire existence, and never will…

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                • Edited by BookGoblin: 2/2/2022 7:25:09 PM
                  Oh and I took your advice and I gotta say I do not like No Time. I don’t know what I’m doing wrong but everything has outgunned me before I get the third shot off.

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                  • Significantly reduced hitbox… remove explosive rounds Reduce in air accuracy, cut magazine size to 7 so they don’t reward spam … Definitely not high skill weapons as they stand

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                    • I just tossed some respect on this post. The facts are there and you mention that you main hand cannons which means you understand how good they really are without the delusion that they take skill.

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                      • Thank you 🙏

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                      • Edited by Wallitzio: 2/3/2022 2:48:36 AM
                        Really great post. Hope this gets more eyes. Maybe post this on Reddit too? As a below average PvP player I got Deadeye (why did I do that to myself...!) recently and thus had to use every type of weapon I agree Hand cannons just outperform 99% of other weapons. I actually really like the idea of buffing different weapons rather than nerfing. Felt very weird to me that Scout rifles or Bows could not one shot kill with a headshot. Also spraying someone with an Auto rifle felt very unsatisfying, like the bullets just bounced off people. Overall just felt like Hand cannons were more lethal.

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                      • Edited by sum12mezzwith: 2/3/2022 1:42:50 AM
                        They buffed vex to 390 so its is own archetype now.

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                      • Ah someone who gets it. Thanks for making this post. Hopefully Bungie take note and end their bias love affair with hand cannons for everyone's sake.

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                      • Great post. 👍

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                      • Hell has truely frozen over. I don't know why it took being bored for someone of your caliber to see the obvious advantage they have especially when thats all you use. When I said they were broken I was labeled mad cuz bad but it took boredom and looking at the ridiculous kills you have to see that. No a handcannon is obviously not as powerful a Lorentz driver that was twisting of my point but they are broken and will continue to disrupt the crucible if not dealt with. I agree with the points but not the solution handcannons shouldn't have a high mag or high stability for a precision weapon. The only thing that really could match is a 340 pulse but like you said handcannons don't suffer that much flinch while pulses do.

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