Bungie had to do that because---without that self-damage mechanic----that 100 round magazine would be ridiculously OP. Essentially being Sweet Business....with no spin up time.
But if you still want to have fun using it, you have to BUILD around it.
Play as your Warlock. Then either run Boots of the Assembler or Sanguine Alchemy...then go with a healing Rift. If you really want to double down, then also run Well of Radiance. Then run high recovery.
That way your recovery makes you more resistant to the self damage. You also get to drop healing rifts that counter the self-damange....and the exotics extend the duration of the exotic....and what Well of Radiance does needs no explanation at this point.
Boots of the Assembler is better if you're running group content. Because, as long you stand in the rift, and the seekers have team mates to heal/buff? Your Rift will just go on and on.
Sanguine Alchemy is better if you're running solo.
The huge magazine of the weapon gets balanced by the fact that you hvae to root yourself to one spont on the map to avoid the self-damage. But that's a small price to pay if you want greater freedom to use the weapon.
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[quote]Bungie had to do that because---without that self-damage mechanic----that 100 round magazine would be ridiculously OP. Essentially being Sweet Business....with no spin up time.[/quote] No it wouldn't be. It's base range is around 20 meters and it handles damage fall off VERY poorly. Being able to shoot 100 rounds when everything within your range is going to be slapping your health bar consistently due to the ai projectiles having a higher likelihood to hit or players using fusion rifles, smgs or side arms to creep into it's range, it's literally dancing the line of death. Not to mention, you can build 720s to have a good 80 or so magazine as well, but yet nobody does it because like TM you are going for sustain in a limited area where everything can kick your butt. Sweet business, unlike TM, has a negative at the start of it's firing, but builds up to not only a faster rpm by over double its base value, but it keeps it's full damage AND has a better range it covers which translates into a better overall weapon at the cost of nothing. Shooting 900 rpm at 24+ meters with each bullet doing 21 (I don't remember it's damage) and it shreds players in a 0.64 second ttk. In pve this translates as well because it can keep out of that area where it can more easily get you damaged, but it doesn't trade anything of particular value BESIDES a second of wind up and it doesn't have to be built around to be useful. It can be, but it's not mandatory like TM. Nobody uses TM because the trade off is absurdly high for something that only has a limited area it can be used it. Touch of malice had this exact same issue but had a way to heal (kinda) and had scout rifle range to utilize with it where you could keep out of harm's way. But as soon as they nerfed the bubble strat with it, which was the ONLY way to build it in destiny 1, it pretty much fell out of the sandbox because killing yourself for damage is NEVER going to be worth it in destiny because so much can wipe your health bar in difficult content. I wouldn't be surprised if they someday buff it, because as cool of a gun as it is, it's just not worth using in any content. Literally just use vex mythoclast which by default has 40% higher base damage than any other auto rifle, with a rampage effect that gives you 30% more damage. TM is garbage.
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Yes it would be. You'd have a weapon that is the equal of any other AR in its class in terms of burst damage....and then you have the sustained damage advantage of a MASSIVE magazine that lets you fire 2 to 3 times longer than any other AR before reloading. IOW, you basically turn the thing into a belt-fed machine gun and an obnoxious suppression-fire/area denial weapon.
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It's still a 720 kelly, they have incredibly poor range that suppression fire typically doesn't work well with. 600s can get almost 50% higher base range with a very comparable ttk and with only barely less than half of it's magazine. And even then lethality is where suppression fire plays a factor in destiny, of which a .77 with a 20m range and very poor damage fall off is not gonna break the game just because you have more rounds. 600s were a different story because they killed faster, farther, AND had a sizable magazine with forgiveness to boot. 720s don't even have a high level of lethality, it's just barely above average. Sweet business has a tenth of a second faster ttk with more range, 50% higher magazine, and it's only limiting factor being you basically have to give your position away...but since you argued suppression fire...that's pretty much the same thing. Sweet business DOES have a negative aspect, but it can be easily worked around. TM cripples you to use it, for a damage boost in pvp that's not worth the rate your health bar ticks down at when you ads (because it hurts you less when you hipfire) which you have to do to even hit your shots to the head. I agree with what you said below where trade offs are a part of the game, but health is a very thin line to walk in every game and so few I've ever played nailed the execution right. TM, to me, feels like one of the many failures. In the right situation it can be lethal, but most people will agree that it's not worth it because of how weak you are left just for using the gun. If I had the option to just use the weapon without the self damage (and maybe at a cost of 25% lower magazine size) then I would because it's a cool gun. But in it's current state it requires a build that only a select class or mods can let you somewhat comfortably use it. As I said above, vex mythoclast is the same thing but better. It's both lethal just by itself, but builds up damage with a way more viable range value. It doesn't shoot as fast, but that just gives you more room to control it which plagues the faster firing auto's such as 720 because shooting more rounds means less control.
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It doesn't matter. Chroma Rush is a 720 and one of the best Legendary ARs in the game right now. ...and you don't even have to have the best TTK if you have such a large magazine that you can just point down a lane....start Firing on Monday, and not have to reload until Friday. It is an advantage that will render all other ARs irrelevant. This is why Bungie got into trouble with the Pinnacle weapons. They gave massive power...but had no disadvantages to their use. So they became a loot...and developmental dead-end. Vex's power doens't come from a bottomless magazine. It was just TUNED in a way that it was a hard counter to a number of popular play styles, which led to complaints. You ahve a lot of PVP players who leverage the game's slow TTK by dipping a toe into a gunfight, then running away when the momentum turns against them. Most weapons either lack the range....the punch...or both to keep them from escaping. Vex didn't. It had enough range and a competitive enough TTK that it could finish off these (usually hand cannon or shotgun) players before they could escape. So naturally the "Its overpowered" complaints started. Vex wasn't OP. Vex is where ARs SHOULD BE in the sandbox, but Bungie is unwilling to let them shine in that way.
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Chroma rush can also squeeze out more range and has access to damage dealing perks on top of being one of the most stable 720s in the game. The comparison you tried to make doesn't work because it's good REGARDLESS of it's magazine size. And even still, nobody is going to sit there and launch a volley of 50+ bullets to stop people from engaging them when it has to put itself in faster ttk primary ranges to do it. People run chroma rush like an smg and race around with it which is the complete opposite playstyle of the one you suggest it would reinforce. And even still, another factor that contradicts your argument is that nobody uses sweet business either despite being the king of lane suppression, even WITH its higher lethality and even HIGHER magazine and fire rate. Having more bullets is definitely a benefit, but one you are very heavily overestimating on auto rifles because NONE of them have the lethality to stop people from pushing lanes or from just clapping your health bar with peak fire, even sweet business can be challenged. And when you say auto rifles should have the lethality of vex mythoclast, I hope you recognize that they all pretty much do besides 360s and not even by much. Vex mythoclast not only shoots at an rpm that's easier to control, its base stability is also impressive after they buffed it. But then they ALSO threw additional stability and lethality on top of it per kill which translates to faster ttk values due to the higher base damage of 360s. And THEN, to top it off, it still has one of the absolute highest aim assist values which most autos sit at around 15-25 less than AFTER it's nerf. Vex is a monster because they handcrafted it (after it's buff) to be on purpose. Tommy's matchbook is what happens when you try to create balance in lethality but not equalizing the values. What's vex mythoclast's trade off, it's drop rate and that's it.
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Missing the forest for the trees. https://www.lexico.com/definition/suppressive_fire
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Edited by DuBChiri2: 2/2/2022 11:01:07 PMYou literally trade your life to try and stop someone from pushing and killing you, thereby making yourself easier to push and kill. That's the definition of contradiction. It doesn't matter how many bullets it shoots. Getting your health to the point where you are without shields is a 1 tap or burst from handcannons and pulse rifles, which are the 2 most used primaries across the history of destiny. And those weapons excel at peek firing and laning. Sweet business is better in every aspect over tommy's matchbook, minus the first couple of rounds, and yet it is almost never used by anyone. And they both have the same spin up effect only sweet business is better because you don't trade the very thing you are trying to sustain, which is your health. Having trade offs is not a bad thing, but you can still miss the mark for the advantages you get for using it. It's a super situational gun that's definitely better off than touch of malice was, but it still just gathers dust for the 99% that have it. And even then, once you have mythoclast you'll realize just how poorly they handled matchbook because yeah it's not firing 100 rounds, it's just killing you in the 36 it got and wiping your health just for simply completing the task weapons are used for.
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Smh. People simply want their favorite toys turned up to broken. #TragedyOfTheCommons
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I don't like that you are lumping me in with people that don't care about the sandbox. Cause if you caught on to how I am outside of just the stuff that we've argued about within the past 2 or so years, you would know that i care a lot. I've made countless posts on this forum, some hit the nail on the head, some miss, but NONE of them when it came to weapon balancing was me talking out of my -blam!- just because I was butthurt. I used to test so much in the sandbox, making posts that took me hours to create that nobody read or just brushed under the rug. Trying to find ways to use things that were rated as bad in an effort to shine some light on them or show why some effect was over rated. I grew tired of that, much like anyone who's effort never went appreciated would. Why should i waste my time putting in all the effort i did for nothing? I got book goblin that would look at my posts and be supportive, but post after post after post with downvotes and not even comments just made me stop caring. But that's with post creation, I will still argue with people over balance any day of the week assuming it's not 4 am and I want to sleep like it is right now lol. And if you disagree with what I've said which you have then that's fine because I don't know everything there is to know. But I've played with tommy's matchbook cause I really wanted to use a new unique auto rifle and at times it felt strong when I timed engaging targets as soon as the self damage was going to kick in, but I can say firmly that I'd probably just like the gun overall more if it had no effect at all, no damage boost or self damage. I'd take a 25% lower magazine size, -blam!- take 50 rounds of it if I could just use it as a normal gun cause I value weapon performance in pvp over gimmicks. 720s had NOTHING that felt good until chroma rush and even still that's a fault of bungie's poor handling of their recoil, which they have a bad habit of releasing over bearing.
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The concept is a very simple one, and I'm getting both frustrated and tired of explaining it. Without the self-damage effect, that 100-round magazine basically turns TMB in to SQUAD AUTOMATIC WEAPON. Were someone can just plant themselves in a lane...and just LAY suppressive fire down that lane and just deny it to the enemy. Especially in 3v3. The point of a SAW is not to actually kill people. Its to lay down a wall of LEAD such that no one with a functioning survival instinct is going to want to move or stick their head up to look around. Which then frees up other elements of the squad to advance or flank the enemy. The only other weapons in the game that can do that on a consistent basis are: 1. LMGs....which require heavy ammo, so their use is severely restricted. 2. Sniper/LFRs....which require precision and are also ammo-restricted. 3. Sweet Business. Which needs to spin up to reach its firing rate, which makes it a poor dueling weapon. ...and people who take SB into PVP use in EXACTLY that way. Which makes it a VERY frustrating weapon to go up against in 3s. Especially if you're going up against a coordinated team making use of it LIKE a SAW. The guy with SWB pins you down...and then the other two fire team members flank you, then walk you down. But at least the guy with SWB is at a disadvantage if you catch him buy himself and his weapon hasn't spun up yet. But TMB would have no such disadvantage. Being both a best-in-class burst-damage/dueling weapon, and a best in class sustained-damage/area-denial/suppressive weapon. If Bungie had allowed TMB into the game without that self-damage aspect, the cries of OVERPOWERED would have been immediate and unending. (Its the maing complaint about Le Monarque right now). Then you throw in the fact that it was a Seasonal Pass weapon (as another poster reminded me) those cries would have quickly gone to "PAY TO WIN"....as paid SP holders got it right away, and FTP players had to grind to get it. ...and I'm sorry, after 7 years I know how this community rolls to well to buy any of the excuses as to why it would have been a privilieged case.
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Sweet business without spin up time would be OP with its damage and dps. On a normal autoriffle, having more bullets doesnt change anything honestly. And tommys also have a sort of spin up mechanic with its perk
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Its OP because it can SUSTAIN a level of damage output that no other 600 rpm AR can match. Being able to keep firing after any other AR would have to stop to reload...at least twice.
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You mean besides overflow autoriffles ? I have a summoner that can even go beyond 100 XD And if you need a huge sustain of damage trust me...its not an autoriffle that is going to do that for you. Unless you are playing in regular strike i suppose...but everything is OP in theren
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Overflow ARs require a trigger, which contextualizes (balances) the power. TMB doesn’t need one.
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Easiest context in the game. Also. Withour overflow you can reach 80+ in the mag. And guess what ? Its still trash tiers in endgame
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You’re not listening because you simply want to be right. You don’t have access to that large of a magazine all the time, which limits its power. The spin up tim of SB, limits its power. The self-damage limits the power of TB, so that you only have full access to that huge magazine under certain conditions. Which is how protect build diversity in game like this. Every weapon where Bungie didn’t take this approach has either had to be dramatically nerfed…or even removed from the game (Recluse).
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Edited by Meow Fairy: 2/2/2022 1:21:28 PMBesides the spin up time and self dmg of the TM isnt because of its 100 bullets. But because of idk...the x2 damage just for shooting ? And if they added a big mag its to compensate for this spin up time
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Like I said. You either don’t get it, or don’t want to get it. …and I’m tired of explaining because the reason why they did it isn’t going to change.
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Im listening But i just dont agree Having a 100 mag on an autoriffle doesnt suddenly make it "op" It makes it good for sure. But "op" No, never in 0 reality. Idk at one point grab a summoner slap on it a mag increase and adept ammo capacity (or even normal) And launch a gm. There is anti barriers in proving grounds, have fun in there with that x)
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Then you either don’t understand how these games work, or you don’t care to engage with the RPG aspects. Contextualized or situational power is a foundational principle of game design. Power either has to come at a cost, if it doesn’t it renders everything else irrelevant. The cost to SB is is spin up time that makes it a poor burst damage weapon. Overflow just gives you an AR where the large magazine requires specific condition to trigger. The cost is having to meet those conditions. What you want is an overpowered monster that is all power and no cost or limits. Especially now that primaries have infinite ammo. An AR that is best in class at burst damage. Best in class at sustained damage, and has a continuous advantage over every other AR and PR in the game in pvp. Where you can just waltz into a lane and just spray-and-pray to dominate it. Just because you don’t like it, doesn’t mean it’s bad. It just means you don’t like it.
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Just run devour…..
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Good point. I don't use bottom tree Voidwalker, so I didn't think of that option.
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Pair it with Manyle of battle harmony aswell with charged with light builds and it becomes complete and utterly broken
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Restorative Light?
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I run with 100 discipline, so 15 second healing Nades. The self damage is only on shield aswell, so you can’t -blam!-. Fun in regular strikes forsure