I mean, having certain guns makes life much easier... but honestly? One undergeared guardian in a team thats kitted out and knows its stuff would be fine.
Also, seeing as I've taken to running Last Wish with goofy loadout restrictions for shits n giggles, I'd be a massive hypocrite for not taking someone through just because they didnt have a 12" Gjallarhorn or whatever...
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That really isnt true, unfortunately. One guardian can completely destroy a run, especially because there are limited revives. Take the first phase of the boss as an example, if that badly equipped person dies even 2 times, you wipe, because those walls prevent others from getting to them to revive, not to mention the fact that they were likely required to kill a number of enemies in said area, which are now immune to the person that is left. And while it can be said, it is far more likely that it will cause a wipe instead.
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That only applies if said guardian dies twice at the very beginning of the phase and it was their side which got the buff first. Thats why you take this approach. 1. Pair them with a well-lock who can chain-cast healing rifts so long as they stay inside them 2. Make sure the newbie guardian picks up the buff - easier sets of adds to kill, and if they die and cant be revived, the more experienced guardian can grab the buff. Anywhere else in the cycle, still not an issue - you'll either have had a wall dropped before, or just have to survive until the second buff exchange happens, which is longer than the revive timer. Bear in mind that Crown has been 3-manned. So long as that persons partner knows how to pick up the slack on their side, its fine.
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Actually crown has been 2 manned, that doesn't mean it is easy. It isn't as simply as picking up the slack, especially since multiple deaths can easily wipe the team. Someone dying in the room with the real deception twice in a row can also be a huge problem, seeing as it will greatly eat into your revive time and leave 1 sole person to deal with absolutely everything on their own. I didn't say it wasn't doable, but it is very likely to cause a wipe. And if it takes everything that you have mentioned to just keep 1 person alive because they have decided to pick aweful weapons, then I would say you are far better off to have that person change up gear. It is a team activity, that means you have to also take your team's time and effort into consideration. Going in with garbage gear is just plain rude and disrespectful of everyone time and energy that they have put forth to help you. Now if you are just with a group of friends, you know what to do, and your just having fun, them who cares. But if you are being taught by someone, then the least you can do is come prepared. That is just basic respect. Also not saying people should be forced to bring specific weapons, but if you are bringing in a sword to kill ogres as a newbie because "it is more fun", then there is something wrong. You should be there to learn, not to be carried like literal dead weight.
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"Very likely to cause a wipe" depends entirely on the group in question, honestly. Deaths in Crown of Sorrow are the same as deaths during Skolas in D1 - knowing how to handle the situation is key. You have to remember that even in the worst case scenario, all you have to do is stay alive until the wall-break. Not hard for a Well-lock 😉 As ever though, its up to the team whether they feel they can pull such a player through. If they dont feel they can do so, then they're right to decline to do so as it would largely be a waste of time for all involved.
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Except that isnt true in the least, skolas didn't have a limited number of revives nor did it have a death timer. Both of which can easily cause a wipe. Heck I have seen 1 person eat up every single revive in a gauntlet run multiple times. 1 person can literally wipe the entire team and there can be nothing that their teammates can do about it. They could use everything possible to try and keep them alive and it could still fail depending on the player. So your statement is 100 percent wrong. It should also be noted that crown might be the most lenient raid in all of D2. It is without a doubt one of the easiest to recover from multiple screw ups and deaths. Most of the other raids can easily be stopped by one person messing up key mechanics (unless you are just going to have them sit in a corner the whole time, in which case that isn't teaching). Your entire statement also completely relies on only having a single newbie, if you have 2 or 3, your revives can be eaten up extremely fast. Again, if all it takes is people actually bothering to use at least half decent gear to make a run actually take far less time and be far less of a headache, those learning at least owe that much to those teaching them. Again, it is nothing more than basic respect.
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Edited by Bieltan: 6/29/2019 10:54:21 AM[quote]Except that isnt true in the least, skolas didn't have a limited number of revives nor did it have a death timer. Both of which can easily cause a wipe. Heck I have seen 1 person eat up every single revive in a gauntlet run multiple times. 1 person can literally wipe the entire team and there can be nothing that their teammates can do about it. They could use everything possible to try and keep them alive and it could still fail depending on the player. So your statement is 100 percent wrong.[/quote] Technically, the poison was similar to a death timer, as in if both your guys had died you had ~1 minute to pick up at least one of them. It was a matter of keeping a cool head and giving yourself the breathing space to get a revive. Same goes for Crown phase one. [quote]It should also be noted that crown might be the most lenient raid in all of D2. It is without a doubt one of the easiest to recover from multiple screw ups and deaths. Most of the other raids can easily be stopped by one person messing up key mechanics (unless you are just going to have them sit in a corner the whole time, in which case that isn't teaching).[/quote] Giving key mechanics that cant be rescued by one of the team to a first timer is rarely wise. Explain them, of course, but on a first time run let them observe those mechanics getting played out. They can give them a go on subsequent runs. [quote]Your entire statement also completely relies on only having a single newbie, if you have 2 or 3, your revives can be eaten up extremely fast.[/quote] Thats why, from the outset, I've spoken in terms of there only being the one newbie. I know for a fact my regular team could drag someone through Last Wish even if they simply sat there and dribbled on their controller the whole time 😂 [quote]Again, if all it takes is people actually bothering to use at least half decent gear to make a run actually take far less time and be far less of a headache, those learning at least owe that much to those teaching them. Again, it is nothing more than basic respect.[/quote] Thats fair. But, like I said, how far that extends is entirely up to the group in question.
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Again if you group has to resort to dragging someone through, then you aren't really teaching, you are just carrying. Also the skolas version of a time also resets each time, the raid one does not, once time is gone it remains gone, and continues to drop the next time someone dies. As for not giving them jobs that could wipe the team, at times you have no choice. During the damage phase of the scourge boss, a newbie can easily kill three people just by standing in the wrong place. Do that twice and it is basically a wipe. In spire there is an array of ways for someone to wipe the team by messing up, because there are so many wipe mechanics, them simply doing something that isn't actually their job (which I have seen many times) can mess one of those mechanics up and kill the whole team with ease. Heck even riven can be screwed up because all they have to do is shoot one eye, which becomes very likely depending on the weapons they decide to use. There are plenty of ways for a single person to kill off a team, and I have seen a fair number of them, although this is again assuming you are actually teaching and not carrying dead weight. Also I more often have at least 2 newbies than just 1 when it comes to teaching raids, for what ever reason they almost always come in pairs. So looking at it in terms of 2 is probably more realistic. And again sure a skilled team could just drag the newbies through, but that isn't teaching, that is just a simple and fairly worthless carry.
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[quote]Again if you group has to resort to dragging someone through, then you aren't really teaching, you are just carrying.[/quote] They'll be acutely aware they're beimg carried, and that alone is usually enough to open their eyes to the need to better tailor their loadout or improve their skills. Seeing how experienced guardians tackle the different parts of the raid is also highly informative. I always pay close attention when I'm in an experienced LFG group, and usually pick up some tricks myself. [quote]Also the skolas version of a time also resets each time, the raid one does not, once time is gone it remains gone, and continues to drop the next time someone dies.[/quote] Only if you can pass it off to someone else. Deaths, even just the one, can complicate that and force you to have to tailor your approach to revives in order to salvage the situation. [quote]As for not giving them jobs that could wipe the team, at times you have no choice. During the damage phase of the scourge boss, a newbie can easily kill three people just by standing in the wrong place.[/quote] Thats why you make sure to do DPS from green room, and before you actually do a run you call out C, A or P a few times and have the newbie go to where they think it is. Go through this until they have clearly grasped it. [quote]In spire there is an array of ways for someone to wipe the team by messing up, because there are so many wipe mechanics, them simply doing something that isn't actually their job (which I have seen many times) can mess one of those mechanics up and kill the whole team with ease.[/quote] Spire could be pretty unforgiving, but honestly all they really have to do is survive on a plate (Well or Bubble make this a doddle) and maybe throw a ball at Robo-Calus hand? You can arrange it so a more experienced guardian takes care of that. [quote]Heck even riven can be screwed up because all they have to do is shoot one eye, which becomes very likely depending on the weapons they decide to use.[/quote] You can pop her eye easily with a sidearm. Even then the newbies eye pair buddy can cover the second eye as an insurance policy. [quote]There are plenty of ways for a single person to kill off a team, and I have seen a fair number of them, although this is again assuming you are actually teaching and not carrying dead weight.[/quote] Its possible to give people a fair share of responsibility, but also help cover them or pick up the pieces if things go wrong. [quote]Also I more often have at least 2 newbies than just 1 when it comes to teaching raids, for what ever reason they almost always come in pairs. So looking at it in terms of 2 is probably more realistic. And again sure a skilled team could just drag the newbies through, but that isn't teaching, that is just a simple and fairly worthless carry.[/quote] Only if things arent explained properly. A good explanation and being able to see how a team should tackle the encounter is still valuable. If the newbie has thumbs, give them some responsibility. If they are dead weight? Give them enough so that they dont bork the run, and the message will sink in. 🤷♂️
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You can explain things as much as possible and some people will still mess it up. Especially in the heat of the moment. For the eyes I was talking about if you are cheesing riven it can be easy to pop an eye, and if doing it legit it can be easy to pop the wrong one as well (although they don't have to have that responsibility). Again we are talking about teaching here, not carrying. If you have to carry someone then that isn't teaching. You honestly should be going into a teaching run with the mind set that you are going to wipe a number of times because the newbie is going to mess up a mechanic, that is part of teaching. A newbie should have at least a small amount of responsibilities so as to actually learn at least part of an encounter. If all they are is present, and don't really do anything, then your "teaching" is no better than a YouTube video. And wipes to things like mechanics and such should be expected in an actual teaching run, but wipes because the person is using the totally wrong equipment should not be, and are simply needless wasters of everyone's time. If you want to have fun with weapons, do it after you have learned the raid. Respect the time of everyone else, and especially those who are teaching you, and use decent equipment. As you said, a good group can carry someone through, but that isn't teaching, not by a long shot.
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[quote]You can explain things as much as possible and some people will still mess it up. Especially in the heat of the moment. For the eyes I was talking about if you are cheesing riven it can be easy to pop an eye, and if doing it legit it can be easy to pop the wrong one as well (although they don't have to have that responsibility).[/quote] If you're teaching, you shouldnt be cheesing. This is the thing, sometimes people just want the experience - to say they've done it. In that instance I'm fine with hoiking them into the backpack. If they want to [i]learn[/i] then thats different, and I will usually bring them along on multiple runs, giving them gradually more responsibility each time. [quote]Again we are talking about teaching here, not carrying. If you have to carry someone then that isn't teaching.[/quote] Nor is cheesing. [quote]You honestly should be going into a teaching run with the mind set that you are going to wipe a number of times because the newbie is going to mess up a mechanic, that is part of teaching. A newbie should have at least a small amount of responsibilities so as to actually learn at least part of an encounter. If all they are is present, and don't really do anything, then your "teaching" is no better than a YouTube video.[/quote] You'd be surprised. Even then, as I said if I'm going to properly teach someone, I'll typically arrange to do more than just the one run. [quote]And wipes to things like mechanics and such should be expected in an actual teaching run, but wipes because the person is using the totally wrong equipment should not be, and are simply needless wasters of everyone's time.[/quote] Again, dependant on why people are there. [quote]If you want to have fun with weapons, do it after you have learned the raid. Respect the time of everyone else, and especially those who are teaching you, and use decent equipment. As you said, a good group can carry someone through, but that isn't teaching, not by a long shot.[/quote] With respects to learning, yes, agreed 100%. However not everyone who wants to Raid is going to be in it for the long haul, savvy?
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Edited by Nickel7Dime: 6/29/2019 6:10:18 PMThe only cheese I consistently do is riven, mainly because there is no sign of it ever changing and honestly the entire encounter is just a pain to do legit, especially if you have 3 or 4 newbies. Far to many people have enough trouble with just the second encounter as is, and seeing as there is absolutely zero benefit to doing riven the legit way, it just ends up being a huge waste of time. If there was any sign that the encounter was actually going to be changed to force people to do it legit then sure, it should be taught that way, but there isn't. So it is far better to teach people the cheese method since 9.5 times out of 10, that is the method they will be using. If people want to learn the legit way, then it can be taught, but that shouldn't be until after you have done completed a few runs and can manage to do everything else. Also yes if people are there to just get a carry that is another story, but that isn't what this topic was about, it was about teaching raids, in which case there should be some gear restrictions so as to actually get things done for effectively. There is also the fact that having appropriate gear makes killing enemies easier and in turn let's a player concentrate far more on actually doing things like mechanics. If you are to busy spending extra time killing enemies because your weapons are not very good, or busy being dead, then you will have a much harder time focusing on and learning mechanics.
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[quote]The only cheese I consistently do is riven, mainly because there is no sign of it ever changing and honestly the entire encounter is just a pain to do legit, especially if you have 3 or 4 newbies. Far to many people have enough trouble with just the second encounter as is, and seeing as there is absolutely zero benefit to doing riven the legit way, it just ends up being a huge waste of time.[/quote] You teach properly, or you dont bother. You have no right to criticize me for deploying the backpack when its appropriate, but teach people bad habits i.e - cheesing. In any case, as you said yourself: you should be prepared for multiple wipes, right? 🧐 [quote]If there was any sign that the encounter was actually going to be changed to force people to do it legit then sure, it should be taught that way, but there isn't. So it is far better to teach people the cheese method since 9.5 times out of 10, that is the method they will be using. If people want to learn the legit way, then it can be taught, but that shouldn't be until after you have done completed a few runs and can manage to do everything else.[/quote] Anyone who has done the fight legit could do the cheese in their sleep. Teaching people to cheese in place of doing the actual encounter cheapens the experience more than any backpacking ever could. [quote]Also yes if people are there to just get a carry that is another story, but that isn't what this topic was about, it was about teaching raids, in which case there should be some gear restrictions so as to actually get things done for effectively.[/quote] I find people are a lot more confident when they are safe in the knowledge their team has them covered. Very often, the cover simply isnt needed because they have the confidence to give it a proper go. [quote]There is also the fact that having appropriate gear makes killing enemies easier and in turn let's a player concentrate far more on actually doing things like mechanics. If you are to busy spending extra time killing enemies because your weapons are not very good, or busy being dead, then you will have a much harder time focusing on and learning mechanics.[/quote] A point that can be driven home during the Raid. Sometimes you have to let people fall on their face or feel like dead weight before their eyes are opened. Funnily enough, once people have struggled for a little bit, they usually seem to conjure some more appropriate guns and infusion fuel from somewhere 😂
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Cheesing is honestly a core part of most games like this, you are really going to say you never used the ledge in crota, or spots to sit in nightfalls where enemies can't hit you? Those are all cheeses. Even games that are far bigger for raiding like WoW consistently use any cheese methods available, because they are by far the most efficient means of completing a task. If you personally don't want to cheese things then good luck to you, that means no running back and forth to the managerie chest, no using a variety of weapons on certain bosses, such as outbreak prime on bosses like the first boss of last wish, ect. Cheese methods are all over the place and used and taught constantly, to criticise the use of one is to do the same for all. And while I might teach the cheese method for 1 encounter, mainly because the vast majority have absolutely no care to do the normal way, especially after typically being stuck on the second encounter for a while, you are basically carrying through the entire thing. The difference is 1 encounter vs an entire raid, so ya, there is a difference. At least in my case they could join an LFG group and actually know how to do most of everything, especially since over 99% of those groups use the riven cheese, with you they would remain completely lost. My teaching is meant to be practical, what is the most efficient/most used methods that are being used out there, and that is what I teach them, so they can actually go off and raid with other groups with far less to worry about. You on the other hand would just throw them out there so they could claim they have a clear, just to later be kicked because they have no clue how to really do any of the encounters. So again, yes there is most certainly a difference between the two. I also stated that if people actually wanted to learn the legit method they had that option, but basically no one does because it has no purpose, almost no groups use the legit method, it really isn't all that fun or anything special, and it has basically been confirmed that they have no intention of fixing it. And yes I did say you are going to wipe, but it is a matter of how many times and why. The team dying an extra 5 times because someone just keeps messing up with their weapons is really just time wasted, not just for you but everyone else in the group as well. So in part it is also about respecting other people's time, especially those who have chosen to help you. Also if it takes the person failing multiple times before they are finally willing to switch equipment then they have basically failed rule number one of being taught in a raid, listen. If the person who is teaching you makes general weapon suggestions you should follow them, you are there to learn after all, once you know the raid you can go off and try out other weapons or just have fun with it, but while you are being taught it is just simply respectful to try and be as best equipped as you can be. There is also the fact that using incorrect equipment actually makes it harder to actually learn things. If you are using good equipment then it is very likely you will be killing things fairly easily, this then allows you to actually concentrate on the taste at hand like the mechanics, if you are to busy having to take extra time and compensate for bad equipment choices, then you are not focusing on things like mechanics as much as you probably should. Basically it can split your focus, which is by no means a good idea when you are still learning.