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#feedback

Edited by Vampire Nox: 7/25/2017 3:01:12 PM
54

Destiny 2: Why not separating PvP/PvE updates is supremely bad.

Many of us have, through the whole course of Destiny's three years, lamented the fact that PvP and PvE were "balanced" together, with no separation among the two (very different) sides of the game. PvP and PvE are two completely different monsters, and they each play in completely different manners. An update that works for PvP, will never affect the PvE side in that same manner, nor will it affect the other side to the same benefit. In fact; PvP balances on PvE (and vice versa), will always have the exact opposite effect on the other side of the game. We saw this in Destiny 1, but apparently D2 has been designed with purely PvP in mind, and it works to the vast detriment of the PvE side of the game. [url=https://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2017/07/20/from-cooldowns-to-weapon-loadouts-destiny-2-has-hurt-pve-to-help-pvp/#64aeadda1580]Paul Tassi with Forbes has a great article about it here.[/url] I know Bungie said in the reveal, and in interviews afterwards, that they fully intend to keep updating Destiny 2 as if there were zero differences between the two (vastly different) sides of the game. And while this definitely works to the benefit of the PvP in Destiny 2 (I'm not hating on Destiny 2's PvP), it only serves to eviscerate the "fun" in the PvE side of the game, and will have drastically worsening effects on the game as D2 goes through it's lifespan. Why are you @Bungie, so determined to balance PvP and PvE along the same metrics, when there's mountains of evidence from Players, Streamers, and video game "'professionals", that says balancing PvP and PvE together is disastrous for the PvE side of the game? Why, when all of the evidence points against this philosophy? Destiny 2 should definitely have strong, fair, competitive PvP game play. But why does the PvE side have to suffer so much in the process? Is it simply a stubbornness brought on by arrogance? Or is it willfully ignoring the evidence that says that this will (again) be a horrible philosophy for managing the game? The Destiny 2 Beta plays/feels/seems, like the entire game has been designed around the PvP side of the game, and it has removed a ton of fun from the game, as Players feel very weak and ineffectual when trying to kill the enemy. Community: Thoughts on this matter? Please discuss. Edit = added in my further thoughts. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- A further thought: Drastic changes are not incoming. Destiny 2 releases in a little less than a month and a half, and the game will "go Gold" (meaning they'll ship the code off to the manufacturer to write it onto discs and get it ready for digital downloads) in the next week or two; which means that any code changes are going to be very minor, and/or limited to minor cosmetic changes. There simply won't be enough time to rewrite code, test it, bug fix, test again, etc., and make the changes necessary to salvage this game, before it ships in the constraints of their release deadline. What you played in the Beta is what you're going to get. And Bungie's weak-ass excuse that "you're actually Beta testing a build that is a couple of months obsolete" is purely a garbage, thin excuse. If you're trying to retain players and get new players, especially after the hit your reputation took during Destiny, why would you have people Beta test an obsolete, atrocious build from three months prior, especially when your brand new game is 1 1/2 months from release? You don't. That would be the same as having Samsung product testing in 2017 for the Galaxy S6. It would make no sense when there's an obviously superior version out there already. No, what you played in the Beta is exactly the type of game and game mechanics that will be Destiny 2 on launch day. And based off of feedback around these Forums and Reddit? There's not going to be a lot of copies of D2 sold. Even the Streamers and professional game reviewers are [i]really[/i] having to stretch their imaginations to find good things to say about what they're playing in the Beta. Even Streamers like TripleWreck (who seem to be huge Bungie apologists) are having trouble finding anything good to say about it. When these groups of Players are saying the very same negative things about the builds of Destiny 2 as the rest of the Gaming community about this build, you know it's just as horrible as you think it is. Nope, the messy abortion we played in the Beta is exactly the game you're going to get on Sept. 6th. And the thing that scares/worries me the most? The heads of the Development Team, the Game Director and Lead Designer all looked at this game, with the build "as is" (aside from tweaking ammo drops and ability recharge rates), with the two-Primary-one-Heavy set up, and they thought: "Yup. Nailed it! Let's ship it because this game is perfect!" And now the game hasn't even released, and they're forced into damage control mode. What they've done with Destiny 2, what they've done with the feedback and Player/Gamer suggestions over Destiny's Y2 & Y3, and then come out with... [i]THIS[/i] steaming pile of shit for Destiny 2; only serves to highlight exactly how far Bungie has become disconnected from their Gamers, and what the Players think is fun. Destiny 2 will not sell the same as Destiny did when Bungie was able to ride the coattails of the Halo franchise. Sales are going to be low, very low; and maybe the hit to Bungie's revenue will finally get through to them. Doubtful. But maybe...

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  • I recently bought the game and was wondering why it wasn't fun. This explains everything.

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  • Bump.

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  • I've been posting this on every related topic I can find. I made a post about it so I'll post it here as well. In a game like Destiny where perks and abilites are the bread and butter of combat, PvE and PvP need to be separate. I think this is something we can all agree on. When taking weapons designed for PvE into PvP, it creates a problem. Things are overpowered, overused, and generally not balanced. Weapons designed to kill a bullet sponge boss simply shouldn't be used in Crucible, and a gun designed to kill Guardians shouldn't be used in PvE. With the beta it's painfully obvious that too many changes were made in favor of PvP that negatively affect PvE: Dumbed down and streamlined subclasses. Weak abilities and weapons. Slow recharge rates. Shotguns in the heavy slot and so on. The question remains; How do we fix this? Well, it's a little too late in the game to do anything substantial about it before release, but a simple solution would be to truly separate the two. By that I mean the guns, armor, and perks we get in PvE shouldn't be allowed into Crucible. Instead, Crucible should have it's own set of weapons, armor, and perks. Completely separate from that of those in PvE. Give us a basic set at first, then earn more through playing Crucible. Tweak abilities and recharge rates for Crucible specifially. Make them each their own entities. Almost two separate games. This way if a PvP weapon or ability is creating a problem it can be fixed specifically for PvP with absolutely no effect on the main PvE game. Weapons and armor can be designed specifically for PvP, without affecting PvE, and vice versa. You want your PvP to be more competitive and balanced. For 3 years you've tried to please everyone, but something always goes wrong. With the way Destiny works, there are simply too many variables involved for this to happen. Which is why when we say separate, we don't mean buff and nerf accordingly, we mean make them their own things. Truly separate the two game types. This is how I personally think it would work best. Otherwise we're gonna have another 3 years of buffs and nerfs in favor of PvP, only to hinder PvE. I know people will say they don't like not being able to take their favorite weapons and armor into Crucible, but that's a small price to pay for overall balance. And I'm sure they'll find new favorite Crucible specific weapons. It's a change that I believe would only benefit everyone involved and make the entire Destiny experience more pleasant. Plus, we'd have that much more loot to grind for, and I love a good grind. These are just my thoughts on the matter. If you feel you have a better solution then please feel free to tell me about it. However, as it stands now everyone is asking for separation without providing any ideas on how to do so. To reiterate/ TL;DR Weapons and armor found and earned in PvE should stay in PvE. Crucible should have it's own set of weapons, armor and perks that are only found and used in Crucible. Two different and completely separate classes of items.

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    • A further thought: Drastic changes are not incoming. Destiny 2 releases in a little less than a month and a half, and the game will "go Gold" (meaning they'll ship the code off to the manufacturer to write it onto discs and get it ready for digital downloads) in the next week or two; which means that any code changes are going to be very minor, and/or limited to minor cosmetic changes. There simply won't be enough time to rewrite code, test it, bug fix, test again, etc., and make the changes necessary to salvage this game, before it ships in the constraints of their release deadline. What you played in the Beta is what you're going to get. And Bungie's weak-ass excuse that "you're actually Beta testing a build that is a couple of months obsolete" is purely a garbage, thin excuse. If you're trying to retain players and get new players, especially after the hit your reputation took during Destiny, why would you have people Beta test an obsolete, atrocious build from three months prior, especially when your brand new game is 1 1/2 months from release? You don't. That would be the same as having Samsung product testing in 2017 for the Galaxy S6. It would make no sense when there's an obviously superior version out there already. No, what you played in the Beta is exactly the type of game and game mechanics that will be Destiny 2 on launch day. And based off of feedback around these Forums and Reddit? There's not going to be a lot of copies of D2 sold. Even the Streamers and professional game reviewers are [i]really[/i] having to stretch their imaginations to find good things to say about what they're playing in the Beta. Even Streamers like TripleWreck (who seem to be huge Bungie apologists) are having trouble finding anything good to say about it. When these groups of Players are saying the very same negative things about the builds of Destiny 2 as the rest of the Gaming community about this build, you know it's just as horrible as you think it is. Nope, the messy abortion we played in the Beta is exactly the game you're going to get on Sept. 6th. And the thing that scares/worries me the most? The heads of the Development Team, the Game Director and Lead Designer all looked at this game, with the build "as is" (aside from tweaking ammo drops and ability recharge rates), with the two-Primary-one-Heavy set up, and they thought: "Yup. Nailed it! Let's ship it because this game is perfect!" And now the game hasn't even released, and they're forced into damage control mode. What they've done with Destiny 2, what they've done with the feedback and Player/Gamer suggestions over Destiny's Y2 & Y3, and then come out with... [i]THIS[/i] steaming pile of shit for Destiny 2; only serves to highlight exactly how far Bungie has become disconnected from their Gamers, and what the Players think is fun. Destiny 2 will not sell the same as Destiny did when Bungie was able to ride the coattails of the Halo franchise. Sales are going to be low, very low; and maybe the hit to Bungie's revenue will finally get through to them. Doubtful. But maybe...

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    • Bump.

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    • Bump.

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    • Completely agree with you. PvE and PvP don't have to be drastically different. But changes shouldn't have to be on both sides. They were able to do it with shotguns in Destiny1, and there shouldn't be a reason they can't increase super and ability rates on just the PvE side.

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    • This! Also, why can't we have different a loadout system for each? Why can't PvE keep the D1 system and PvP can have the new one? That would give me a reason to consider D2

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      4 Replies
      • Destiny needs to drop pvp big time. i think having 4 or 5 maps and 4 game modes is fine but seperate pvp from the rest of destiny. pve is again being ruined by pvp. bungie has not heard us players.

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      • Wow still talking about the same things/issues months later and during a sequel mind you? Bungie is stubborn. Not a good sign to me that they haven't even considered doing this yet. Too bad. It's literally the only thing holding me back from buying D2. Now I know.

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      • Bump. I agree. Make sure to be as loud as you can on this topic gaurdians if you feel the same. (Aka, don't buy this game until it's fixed!)

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      • Bungie needs to let go of or change their "philosophy". I love Destiny, but the PvE/PvP debate has been an ongoing issue. I think it's the one thing that the majority of the Destiny community actually agrees on, that both these environments should be balanced separately. Bungies argument is that they want the game to feel and play consistent across the board, but it already doesn't, the flow of battle completely changes going from one environment to another. Fighting other guardians is not the same as fighting the cabal, the fallen or any of the enemy NPC's. If I'm fighting a huge bullet sponge boss, then ya, i'm gonna want more power ammo to deal that that. I'm gonna want to have my abilities recharge faster because i'm dealing with armies of enemies as opposed to 1-4 guardians. I'm gonna wanna be able to move at a more agile pace in an open environment in patrol and to be able to dodge incoming projectiles from large enemies, especially when they all have some sort of splash damage. Of course these things could change with armor mods and stuff, but even with as much fun as i'm having with the beta, it doesn't feel balanced right. Bungie needs to know that what works in one mode, doesn't work in the other, especially with the way D2 is designed. D2 PvE should aim for a similar balance that D1 had, and D2 PvP should balance on it's current path.

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      • In warframe, the pvp feels VERY different due to abilities and weapons not working the same and some even having different mechanics altogether. When a free to play game can balance their pvp and pve better than a AAA game and a developer like Bungie then you know there's a problem. In my opinion bungie should use the beta weapon loadout system for PvP and any exotics or legendaries that break PVP can just be made not selectable to play in PVP. On the PVE side the current Destiny 1 weapon loadout system should be used and it would be a win win for both communities.

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      • I completely and utterly agree. I have no idea why, that after 3 WHOLE YEARS of people asking for this to happen, Bungie has never done anything.

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      • PvE & PvP need to be separated.

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      • Edited by Cordic_Cyberpunk: 7/21/2017 3:54:18 PM
        The sad part is we players, have asked for pvp to seperate for 3 years now. Bungie wants to ruin destiny and turn into a garbage Esports (this is not a Sport btw). I have been gaming for allmost 30 years of my life and never will i see Esports as a Sport. Football, soccer, swimming, tennis, these are Sports and not sitting on your ass yelling into a headset.

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      • bump for sanity

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      • Yeah, Bungie f*cked up. I actually like the changes for PvP (although powers recharge is way too slow), but it has really stuffed PvE which is the whole reason I play. Too late for them to change it now. Big mistake.

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      • It's idoitic to not balance them separately. it hasn't worked for the past 3 years and it will continue to not work in the future

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      • The retarded weapon loadout is the worst part, and is what will kill the game. It's not fun and it's not effective. It's weak and annoying. Stop ruining PvE!

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      • They should follow WoW's model. In Wow you can bring your PvE gear into PvP matches, but more than likely you will get murdered(you WILL). So if you choose to be really good at PvP you have to grind to get the best PvP gear. It works. It gives the player a choice. I can mess around in PvP for a bit with my current gear and have fun, or I can really take it serious and go after the cool PvP gear and really kick ass. Also it basically gives you two games to play in one. PvE gear game and the PvP game. I completely understand why Bungie is trying to do what they are doing. I get it. They want folks to bring their hard earned gear into battle against other ppl so you can "show it off". But it truly is a balancing nightmare and I have NO idea why they choose to keep doing it when there are other proven systems that work.

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      • I'm afraid their level of incompetence on this matter has reach critical levels. They double down on their beliefs to keep game types the same and blatantly ignore any honest feedback. I can tell what they are doing. Bungie is good at one thing for sure and that is avoiding answering questions. They are biding their time like they did in D1. Ignore the Mass Feedback, then continue waiting until no one is interested in fighting back. Its very clever. The majority of players do not even get on the forums so they will not see whats wrong with the game and will blindly purchase it.

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        • BTW, that Forbes article is right in the money. I hadn't read it, but everything I've been writing on the boards sounds like I had. Bungie can make small adjustments here and there to lessen the blow to PvE, but to the core the damage has been done. Destiny PvE is dead.

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          • There is a total lack of common sense in Bungie when it comes to PvP/PvE. If you want to slow the TTK, give us more armor, not nerf weapons. Seems simple enough, I'd like a little more armor in PvE. If secondary weapons are a problem limit one clip per match, no ammo loss upon death. There you go, problem solved and no impact on PvE. If heavy is a problem then drop one brick in the middle of the map and let us fight over it. Again simple solution, not upsetting the PvE side with any of these simple solutions. Here's another one, assign weapon load outs for Trials or any elimination type game. All other modes are enter at you own risk as these modes are not balanced so suck it up buttercup. There needs to be OP weapons in the game, it's why we farm it so much. Why would I grind and grind for another mediocre pea shooter. I think it's partly why we can't retain PvE players in the game, the loot's not worth the chase. Also stop leveling us out of content and confining us to a small dlc worth of content for the sake of progression and this game is too small for that. Per the beta PvP for solo players which I posted earlier. It's bad enough there is already a meta weapon that is better than the other guns but there's a larger problem. Teams have figured out 1 Titan for shield, 1 Warlock for heal, 1 warlock for damage buff and 1 Hunter GG for chain of woe for quick reloads is unbeatable. Now, it was bad enough going against teams as a solo in D1 when all they had was teamwork thru communication to get the upper hand but solo against this is probably going to be a slaughter house. I foresee a huge dropout rate in PvP coming, far worse than it ever was in D1.

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          • Bump for [i]real[/i] truth

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          • Bump

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