I get why competitive want 60fps. It's a very big deal in fighting games. 60fps allows for better reaction time and smoother input controls. As I understand it the human eye can only detect 32fps. But there is more going on in video game fps than what the human eye is detecting. This is partially why I laugh about consoles being used for competitive game play. They aren't competitive hardware.

When did sols become such a bungie ass kisser? I've seen him defending SBMM back when it was the most heated topic here, deej even had the nerve to talk about how to give good feedback while showing his post (pro sbmm) as an example. (Lawl) He blames pvp for the nerfbox, not bungie devs who take small changes we ask for and nerf them to hell (looking at you clever dragon types and shotguns to which we asked for high cal removal and better counters, we got a pulse archetype quadruple nerfed and shotguns nerfed then all special removed) And now saying a console game on current gen in 2017 can't handle 60 fps? Lol! Not to mention no dedicated servers. A few other points: [quote][b][i]Where do you want to scale back content to up the frame rate for PvP?[/i][/b][/quote]I don't see why it would have too, halo 5 and others don't have that issue, lazy devs is the only answer I can think of - but yes actually, I would give up some content to a degree for faster frames. [quote]Much like the crucible/balancing debacle that has been Destiny 1, for every cause there is an effect. For every nerf in PvP, PvE players took a hit to their play[/quote]There is literally no nerfs done to pvp that drastically effected pve, the only nerfs that really had any effect on pve were elemental primaries, black hammers original perk and gally, all of which were done for pve reasons. [quote]This is no different and I'm sorry, but I'm tired of my experience in PvE being dictated by a small portion of the community that is only concerned with their k/d and PvP success. Trials dictated too much of Destiny 1 gameplay and here we are days after the first official reveal and once more the hardcore PvPers are asking for changes without considering the consequences.[/quote]"Everything is the pvp'rs fault!" Even though 60 frames are standard now, we should cater to bungies incompetence by blaming the pvp playerbase... [quote]Here are the facts about increasing Frames Per Second. You can either upgrade your equipment to top end or you can sacrifice performance in other areas to boost fps. I can maybe understand that some console gamers may not get this concept, but I'm seeing players purporting to be PC gamers who don't understand how this works and that to me is just mind boggling. When you have a pc with a high end processor and graphics card, you crank everything to 11 and marvel at the amazing graphics. when you have a decent to pretty good pc with a decent processor and graphics card you have choices. Do you want better draw distance? Higher resolution? Better lighting and shadows? Increased world effects like clouds, weather, grass, particle effects like spells and abilities, etc? Higher anti-aliasing? All those things take resources- memory and processing power and they all contribute to lower frames per second performance. So when you get into 25 man raid or large team PvP battle and you computer that runs at 60 fps playing solo dips to 20 fps and possibly below with enough things going off onscreen and the choppiness starts to affect play you have that choice. You can upgrade you system or you can sacrifice other performance to get higher fps. Lower the view distance. Lower the lighting and shadows. Lower the resolution and anti-aliasing. Lower the particle effects.[/quote]See if 16vs16 playlists were coming out for D2 I could hear them being only 30 fps...but it's 4vs4....that's less then D1 which was made 3 years ago for old gen and current gen alike - current gen only in 2017 should have servers and 60 fps by default. [quote]PS4 is that pretty good computer and to get it to run 60 fps, it's going to require sacrificing performance elsewhere. So again, where would those who are demanding 60 fps like to see them scale back? Because it comes at a cost.[/quote]Again, in 2017 a new game that doesn't push player count or other things should come standard with these things - pve maybe if it's massive - 16vs16 as well - definitely not 4vs4.

Lost, I think the problem here is three-fold. 1. You have a lot of kids----and adults that still think and act like kids----who just refuse to accept that there are technological and other limitations in play here. So they think that the only reason why devs can't give them what they want...is that they're too lazy to do it. When the reality is this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbFIU7BfrV4&t=108s This is Titanfall 2 running at 60 fps @ about 900p on PS4....and @ about 720p on XB1....and that's in addition to stripping down the graphics on background structures and keeping AI behaviors very simple and predictable to unload those processors. Respawn has a lot of experience at this, and is very good at it...but if you take your eye off all the foreground action they want you to focus on...and look into the distance you'll see (literally) the compromises being made in the name of frame rate. So many just dont' approach this situation from a stand point that high frame rates come at the cost of other aspects of play. Unless you are playing a on a VERY expensive PC. 2. You just have a lot PVP players that simply don't respect PVE or PVE players. Its PvP Master race and who cares about PVEasy? So anything that needs to be taken away from PVE in order to improve PVP or meet their needs as PVP players constitutes "acceptable losses". 3. You get back to the fundamental problem that has plagued this game. Its has attracted a very large, very rowdy group of players who aren't used to having to get along under the roof of the same game. Shooter gamers aren't used to having to deal with a PVE community that is strong enough and bold enough to tell them to sit down and STFU whenever PVP wants to wreck PVE play in the name of PVP. Also RPG gamers aren't used to having to defend the quality of their own experience from people who "just" want to run around and shoot at other players. IN most RPGs PVP is either non-existent ....or an afterthought. Bottomline, these conflicts are never going to be resolved in the community. This is where Bungie needs to show leadership, and a cohesive vision for the game. For Destiny 1, that was largely absent...and Bungie tried to please every one. But with this REVEAL Bungie seems to be stepping up and picking a clear direction for the game....and they seem to be throwing their weight solidly in favor of PVE at the moment.

Console games that run at a higher FPS uses a technique called Dynamic Resolution Scaling. Several games use this. Halo 5 Witcher 3 Battlefield 1 Zelda: Breath of the Wild Doom (the newest one) The Division and so on. To hit higher frame rates on consoles, and PCs that may have some hardware limitations. It's tech that's been around for a while. Personally 60FPS isn't really a big concern for me. I don't care. My concern lies with the no dedicated servers mess.... moving on. So that's what I would sacrifice if I were a Dev. It would be resolution via Dynamic Resolution Scaling. Bungie strikes me as a weird company. I have no clue why they are so stuck in the past. No matchmaking for end game activities. (in destiny 1) (Doesn't seem like much has changed in D2 except guided games) Slow slow PvP play. (reported to be even slower in Destiny 2) P2P connections. Locked 30FPS on console (which doesn't bother me) All of this in a new game, in what we can safely state is a sure thing investment wise, when there is tech available (and in some cases has been for a long time) to mitigate most of these issues. They clearly have it set in their minds that "This is the way Destiny is going to be" and there's nothing we can do to change their minds. (Unless we ask them to nerf a gun) Currently I'm loling at all of the "battlenet will keep cheaters out of destiny because blizzard is serious about cheaters" Little to they know that this is the first non-blizzard game on Battlenet, and Bungie will be policing those cheaters. Bungie, by the way, isn't good at it.

But I'm guessing from your post your a pve main and would you not take pve 60 fps over pvp 60fps. I'm just saying people want the best for what part of the game they enjoy most. I for one am useless at pvp but I would rather that be 60fps than have a few fancy back rounds and floating clouds while on patrol.

For the record I'm not a PvP player, I like PvE waaaaaaaay better and 60fps would be good for both sids of the game, NOT just PvP. On top of that plenty of games manage to run at 60fps and have good graphics as well. Bungie's proprietary engine is garbage, and yes 30fps (though VERY disappointing) is not the end of the world, but it's a symptom of a larger problem, Bungie is to cheap,lazy or both to make their game the best it can be Trying to split the community down the middle on this is garbage, everyone should want this game to run at 60fps

I am willing to sacrifice the entire raid for a better PvP.

It's simple, I would fully sacrifice PvP by removing it from the game. Destiny had the WORST PvP EXPERIENCE I HAVE EVER HAD IN GAMING! I never played Destiny for its PvP.

I think what alot of people are failing to realize (or omitting) is that alot of "those other games with industry standard 60 fps" do so either at the expense of resolution, suffer framerate drops, or just don't have much going on coding-wise. They also don't seem to understand that Bungie wants to prioritize resolution without framerate drops, which is a major source of salt for said game forums. Not that I give 2 sh[i]i[/i]ts about framerate, but given a choice I'll take stability everytime.

Here's the thing, there shouldn't have to be that sacrifice. Many, many other games can and do get a higher frame rate when having just as much, if not more, going on in the game on consoles. A 30+ player Star Wars battlefront match can and does run in 60fps with a ton of environmental stuff (and probably more than most instances of destiny 2 pve, open world or otherwise) going on and comparable graphics. I suggest reading this and doing some followup of your own: http://wccftech.com/destiny-2-could-should-run-60fps/ This shouldn't be an issue of pve vs pvp though, this is an issue of a better performing game vs one relying on what is quickly sounding like a poorly designed game engine when compared to what most other developers are doing, and visual gimmicks like a 4K resolution that really isn't that necessary given how the human eye and brain actually sees and processes images. Let's say you have a nice big fancy new 55" 4K tv to play destiny 2 on. Just the fact the tv is newer will already mean it's going to have a better initial picture quality than the tv that preceded it as that was likely 5 or more years old. Better, deeper blacks, better refresh rates, better control of white/backlight bleed through, and maybe even lower native input lag (actually, 4K tvs in 4K mode are going the opposite direction with rising input lag going up over 40-50ms in comparison to tvs running 1080 getting input lag down under 20 and even 10ms regularly). But, unless you sit within, say, two to three feet of the screen so that it takes up most of your focused line of sight, your eye cannot tell the difference between that 4K image and a 1080p image. Your brain may convince you there is because you want there to be, but the science and math says nope. This is why at CES the past few years when they've been touting 4K or even 8k screens, the screen is either really huge (100" or more), or they encourage you to get up super close to tell the difference (literally have had booth reps telling people to get up within inches of the screen to see the difference, because they know at a normal viewing difference you can't). However, wherever you sit in relation to your screen, a faster response to your movements and a smoother transition in those movements is readily noticeable. Frankly, destiny is going for the wrong option when it comes to making the game look good for even pve as the thing they are prioritizing for is more meant for extremely large screens meant for mass viewing than anything designed to go reasonably into a home.

Sols you are a smart guy, just admit it man. Bungie is lazy, and they want maximum profit for the least effort. Call of duty series has always had two engines for separating zombies and pvp because it made the game run much better. Bungie could have two engines for destiny 2, and completely separating weapon stats and player stats from crucible, to regular pve. Bungie is not the bungie halo fans once knew. The good people have long been gone, all you see now is a joke of a dev team guided by activisions greed and equality for all mentality in all the games coming out.

I don't care that D2 will run at 30 fps vs 60 fps. What I care about is that the weapon re-ordering is a change that was CLEARLY made to force primary vs. primary encounters in PVP, and it harms PVE by reducing our DPS potential. Never ever have I been in a firefight and said "I wish I had a second primary" but I HAVE been in several firefights where I said "I wish I had more special/heavy ammo." It's just not a good change for PVE any way you slice it. Even if sandboxes get separated completely, PVE will STILL start off from a position of having been negatively impacted for the sake of PVP. This just shows me that they really didn't learn much from D1, because they are still trying to force combat to be more like Halo and less like what it was in Destiny Y1 when combat was fast, exciting, and dynamic (whereas Halo is slow and methodical). Overall, if D2 has to run at 30 FPS rather than 60 to accomodate PVE players, then it actually makes me happy. Now, PVP players can know what it feels like to have to make a sacrifice for the sake of PVE.

Sacrifice the 4K, we don't need goddamn 4K, we want better fps not some dumb fake 4K that only ONE system has. Barely anybody has 4K now anyway. Again Bungie (John W) is trying to sacrifice the needs of many, for the needs of a few👎🏻

People who whine about PvE being affected are the same people who -Stood in the back with Icebreaker in the Devils Strike -Asked to be carried through the jumping puzzle at Atheon by returning to orbit -Have to return to tower mid raid because they're out of heavy synthesis. I could seriously go on. The point is, they're people who Use the same weapons In the same hiding spots Complaining over and over how there is no diversity. They don't deserve to be catered to in one bit. IN fact, they should be muted