JavaScript is required to use Bungie.net

#Halo

4/25/2010 3:59:44 AM
61

The Battle Rifle is Underpowered

Yes, it is true. I was driving a mongoose in a stright line on Rat's Nest past the enemy base, and an enemy shot my mongoose twice with the BR, and the 6 rounds had enough force to flip a 4-wheeler with a 1000 pound spartan on it, so why does the gun not simply rip through a player in one shot? Whats up with the physics in this game? At one point, on Last Resort, I had a Warthog with a gunner and bomb carrier. We jumped through the windmill, but someone sniped at the warthog. The shot hit the left side, and sent it into a 720 degree uncontrolled spin. Since we were not touching the ground, it just sent us out of control. Should not a gun that strong be able to kill you in one body shot, or even kill tanks like a railgun? Has anyone else noticed the ridiculous bullet physics in this Halo? They make vehicles flip like nothing. I cannot count how many times i was driving a mongoose and got flipped by a couple BR rounds. I believe the physics is Reach should be made to better reflect real life. I originally wrote this thread when Reach was first being announced, but now that this forum is open I feel the need for discussion. The primary basis for this discussion is the formula p=mv, or, in a more readable state, momentum = mass x velocity. This formula tells us about momentum, which it simple terms is the ease of stopping an object. Other than the examples used, since a car (or warthog) has great mass, and possibly great velocity, it has high momentum, making difficult to accelerate it. This is why a bullet should flip a vehicle. It has high velocity but EXTREMELY LOW mass. In real life, a car is affected little if it hits you because its momentum is very large relative to your own. Another simple formula, F=ma, or Force = Mass x Acceleration, also tells us that a bullet has very little force behind it, similar to how it shows that a vehicle would have far more force. I believe these changes should be made for the sake of realism and fair play. It is ridiculous that the guns in Halo 3 could flip vehicles or change their trajectory in any meaningful way. When cars get shot up in movies for example, they dont flip around. This better reflects realism. Guns in Halo, including the BR and Sniper, and hopefully not the DMR and new sniper, have this ridiculous effect on vehicles. A link to the original necrotic thread can be found [url=http://www.bungie.net/Forums/posts.aspx?postID=39021241&postRepeater1-p=1]here[/url]. [Edited on 04.24.2010 8:06 PM PDT]
Add more answer options

Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post.

  • whilst i agree on the physics (unless the bullets are realllly blam! heavy) butit is kinda funny that if you turn and get shot in a hog it flips so im sorry i prefer mad physics to real physics
    Add more answer options

    Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post.

  • he's in the right forum. he's complaining about something about previous games and you can infer that he want's it fixed in halo: reach. i concur with op.
    Add more answer options

    Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post.

  • I made a thread about this a long time ago... Good to see someone else feels as I do about the bullet "strength".
    Add more answer options

    Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post.

  • Yeah, they MURDURED the battle rifle. They turned it into a single shot walking disaster and took off the rail grip thing on the top!
    Add more answer options

    Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post.

  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] SeraphvsIvdicii A free-flying Warthog could very easily be spun out of control by the sniper bullet, which carries enormous momentum for its size (far more than you're implying) due to its extremely high velocity. It's mass is not "EXTREMELY LOW", either. Sniper rounds are markedly more massive compared to other projectiles fired from conventional guns. The primary issue, however, is that you're misunderstanding the way in which the impulse, imparted by the bullet, is affecting the vehicle. It's not accelerating the massive vehicle along its trajectory by any meaningful amount. That vehicle already has a high "forward" momentum, and it would take a great deal of mechanical work to significantly influence that momentum-- certainly more than that sniper bullet, despite its bone-shattering kinetic energy, can perform. Rather, the bullet causes an axial rotation. The vehicle starts with zero angular momentum (it isn't spinning about an axis), and can therefore be imparted with an angular velocity relatively easily. Thus, there's nothing obviously wrong with the way the physics engine handles the situation.[/quote] You make a good point, but what if these bullets hit somewhere else? The phsyics system needs to be flawless. I don't mind a few glitches here and there.
    Add more answer options

    Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post.

  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] daniel13789 its a video game. dropkick logic out the window.[/quote] I'm sorry but when realism agrees with skill, a concesion should be made. Should it take a few shots from a gun to flip a humvee? Does it take a few shots from a gun to destroy a tank? How many more shots would it take if that tank had energy shielding, and was jumping and running at 60 kph? There is logic and realism in halo, but only when it works with skill.
    Add more answer options

    Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post.

  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Hitodama Kyrie Not to be too curt, but you can't just download physics from the universe and upload them to a computer. You have to make a computer simulate them, and sometimes, it gets confused. I have noticed the problem with the mongoose though. I think it may have to do with the speed your travelling at, and that you have virtually no traction; coupled with the fact that a 1000 pound spartan is riding atop a 896 pound buggy.[/quote] That would cause more friction, but that doesnt really directly relate to tthe flipping, and I see how friction can fail on sandy turf. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Kayyyleb 1. Wrong forum 2. No BR in Halo Reach 3. It's a -blam!- game 4. You're taking said -blam!- game way too seriously.[/quote] 1. No 2. No 3. Yes 4. No [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] ericstifer lol, nice try but fail[/quote] I fail to see tha location of the fail, seeing how many agreeable responses I have, or other intelligent remarks. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Oxyde [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Charles128 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Canipa09 I think it was just a burst thing. I expect the DMR would not do this.[/quote] yes, but its one round that would cause this. and not just the BR, the sniper and other guns as well. [/quote] The sniper fires 14.5x114 bullets. Those were made in real life to penetrate tank armor.[/quote] Which is partly why it has no effect, as stated below. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] SeraphvsIvdicii A free-flying Warthog could very easily be spun out of control by the sniper bullet, which carries enormous momentum for its size (far more than you're implying) due to its extremely high velocity. It's mass is not "EXTREMELY LOW", either. Sniper rounds are markedly more massive compared to other projectiles fired from conventional guns. The primary issue, however, is that you're misunderstanding the way in which the impulse, imparted by the bullet, is affecting the vehicle. It's not accelerating the massive vehicle along its trajectory by any meaningful amount. That vehicle already has a high "forward" momentum, and it would take a great deal of mechanical work to significantly influence that momentum-- certainly more than that sniper bullet, despite its bone-shattering kinetic energy, can perform. Rather, the bullet causes an axial rotation. The vehicle starts with zero angular momentum (it isn't spinning about an axis), and can therefore be imparted with an angular velocity relatively easily. Thus, there's nothing obviously wrong with the way the physics engine handles the situation.[/quote] This is an interesting point but flawed. The sniper bullet impacts more or less in the center of the horizontal axis, which would not really cause very much angular momentum. The primary problem, however, is that the bullet indeed does have both low momentum and a low impulse. Momentum is p=mv, so p = mass (~.06kg) x velocity (~800m/s) = 48 kg m/s, a relatively low value. The same for Impulse, I = F x change in t. t, or time, would be a relatively low value, since the projectile would simple break apart during impact, or, since many are so kind to point out, it is armor piercing, go straight through it. F would also be low, as F=ma and m is established to be ~.06 kg and the acceleration is 1600 m/s squared, leading to a value of 96 Newtons (N) for Force. This becomes infintismal as t approaches 0. Therefore, the bullet has little momentum and impulse, imparting little effect upon the vehicle, which has far more momentum. Even if the horizontal velocity of the warthog werre only 0.1 m/s, which it likely as the two vectors being perpendicular is extremely unlikely, the p value would still be 650, phenomenllay more than that of the bullet. The impulse imparted on the bullet would similarly be much higher, therefore, teh Warthog affects the bullet, not the other way around. Here is a test for a barret .50 cal sniper that performs [i]better[/i] than the SRS 99D-S2 AM in Halo, to back up teh calculations. [url]http://proceedings.ndia.org/0610/10138.pdf[/url] Bottom Line: Bullet do not cause vehicles to flip over. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] annoyinginge I believe this is put in for the sake of balance. Even so, it is annoying and I think a middle ground should be reached in Reach.[/quote] I agree. To many, bad or unrealistic graphics can ruin a game, when things do not look like they should. Likewise, for me and many other analytical minds, poor physics cause an anti-realism that jars our experience with the game.
    Add more answer options

    Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post.

  • I believe this is put in for the sake of balance. Even so, it is annoying and I think a middle ground should be reached in Reach.
    Add more answer options

    Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post.

  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Charles128 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Canipa09 I think it was just a burst thing. I expect the DMR would not do this.[/quote] yes, but its one round that would cause this. and not just the BR, the sniper and other guns as well. [/quote] The sniper fires 14.5x114 bullets. Those were made in real life to penetrate tank armor.
    Add more answer options

    Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post.

  • DMR is about the same as BR. I mean, it pissed me off so much. I was going for a mongoose flag run, "BR", -WHUMPH-. "WHAT THE -blam!-???" I had to jump over the 'goose and run off to beat them into the ground. During that time we lost the game.
    Add more answer options

    Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post.

  • A free-flying Warthog could very easily be spun out of control by the sniper bullet, which carries enormous momentum for its size (far more than you're implying) due to its extremely high velocity. It's mass is not "EXTREMELY LOW", either. Sniper rounds are markedly more massive compared to other projectiles fired from conventional guns. The primary issue, however, is that you're misunderstanding the way in which the impulse, imparted by the bullet, is affecting the vehicle. It's not accelerating the massive vehicle along its trajectory by any meaningful amount. That vehicle already has a high "forward" momentum, and it would take a great deal of mechanical work to significantly influence that momentum-- certainly more than that sniper bullet, despite its bone-shattering kinetic energy, can perform. Rather, the bullet causes an axial rotation. The vehicle starts with zero angular momentum (it isn't spinning about an axis), and can therefore be imparted with an angular velocity relatively easily. Thus, there's nothing obviously wrong with the way the physics engine handles the situation. [Edited on 04.25.2010 12:45 AM PDT]
    Add more answer options

    Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post.

  • lol, nice try but fail
    Add more answer options

    Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post.

  • 1. Wrong forum 2. No BR in Halo Reach 3. It's a -blam!- game 4. You're taking said -blam!- game way too seriously.
    Add more answer options

    Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post.

  • Not to be too curt, but you can't just download physics from the universe and upload them to a computer. You have to make a computer simulate them, and sometimes, it gets confused. I have noticed the problem with the mongoose though. I think it may have to do with the speed your travelling at, and that you have virtually no traction; coupled with the fact that a 1000 pound spartan is riding atop a 896 pound buggy.
    Add more answer options

    Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post.

  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] xODST Buckx The BR is lol. The Sniper uses Anti-Armor rounds. So the Warthog part is understandable. (Plus its a high tech sniper.)[/quote] Actually, the "high tech sniper" isnt that far off, it used 14.5 x 114 mm rounds that weigh about 60 grams, and fires at a velocity similar to modern guns. ITs pretty much just an advanced .50 cal. So it shouldnt have the effect by those standards. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] aeonas While I've never been flipped over on a Warthog on account of bullets from a sniper or a BR I can see your point. Personally, I don't care that much... It doesn't bother me at all and I rarely see mongooses get tipped over by regular bullets so I don't even see a problem to be fixed.[/quote] I understand that its minimal, but it it still annoying when you see it happen. Qlso as stated above, the bullet should simply pass straight through the vehicle before doing any trajectory changing on it. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Shiny 2 Its called host go have another cry and just deal with it [/quote] I have absolutely no idea how that is relevant, unless you are suggesting that having network host reprograms the game. The is also not a whine thread by any means. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Plasma Prestige Games should be realistic to a certain point. The bullet physics need to be improved. A sniper rifle bullet shouldn't even be able to nudge a vehicle. [/quote] True. Things dont just happen randonmly in games. Someone had to program the physics, and specifically how objects interact. So someone programmed the bullets to have that effect. Why? [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] TI07 Shadow I personally think the physics should be closer to Halo CE. Along with being hurt from falling. Like it was in Halo CE :p also I have to agree a bit a bullet shouldn't move vehicle a whole lot. maybe make it wabble a bit but not a whole lot to where it throws the whole vehicle off balance. However it should have effect on the vehicles movement if hit in the tires.[/quote] Right, unless the vehicle isnt touching the ground, in which case it should have absolutely no effect at all, but as previously stated, the effect is quite profound. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Joebeezer The halo universe has low gravity.[/quote] 1) That is completely untrue. 2) Even if it were true, it would be completely irrelevant, as neither acceleration nor acceleration due to gravity appear in the equation p=mv. Acceleration in F=ma is also irrelevant to this as perpendicular vectors are independent of one another, and since gravity is vertical acceleration, it has no effect on the horizontal acceleration, and therefore no effect on the horizontal force, which should be minimal, yet is not.
    Add more answer options

    Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post.

  • The halo universe has low gravity.
    Add more answer options

    Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post.

  • I personally think the physics should be closer to Halo CE. Along with being hurt from falling. Like it was in Halo CE :p also I have to agree a bit a bullet shouldn't move vehicle a whole lot. maybe make it wabble a bit but not a whole lot to where it throws the whole vehicle off balance. However it should have effect on the vehicles movement if hit in the tires. [Edited on 04.24.2010 9:42 PM PDT]
    Add more answer options

    Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post.

  • Games should be realistic to a certain point. The bullet physics need to be improved. A sniper rifle bullet shouldn't even be able to nudge a vehicle.
    Add more answer options

    Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post.

  • Its called host go have another cry and just deal with it
    Add more answer options

    Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post.

  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] xODST Buckx The BR is lol. The Sniper uses Anti-Armor rounds. So the Warthog part is understandable. (Plus its a high tech sniper.)[/quote]Anti armor rounds usually go right through armor and have some explosives as well. Ideally, it goes through the armor, then explodes on the interior, killing the crew and passengers. Even heavy weapons, such as tank rounds don't cause the target to move a ton. It takes serious explosives to do that, especially against heavy military vehicles. A bullet will tear through a vehicle before it moves it significantly.
    Add more answer options

    Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post.

  • OP is win, and needs to be given a position in the Bungie physics department. Well, ragdoll physics is what makes Halo "Halo," but I'd like to see some realistic things occuring rather than rubber vehicles and 500lb bullets. I agree completely.
    Add more answer options

    Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post.

  • While I've never been flipped over on a Warthog on account of bullets from a sniper or a BR I can see your point. Personally, I don't care that much... It doesn't bother me at all and I rarely see mongooses get tipped over by regular bullets so I don't even see a problem to be fixed.
    Add more answer options

    Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post.

  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Notanoob7 Looking at the newest vids, the physics seem 100x better. Especially with the melees and headshot kills, getting his in the face should not paralyze you and send you flying backwards 30 feet with about 10 feet of air like it does too often in Halo 3.[/quote]That's been fixed for quite a while.
    Add more answer options

    Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post.

  • The BR is lol. The Sniper uses Anti-Armor rounds. So the Warthog part is understandable. (Plus its a high tech sniper.)
    Add more answer options

    Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post.

  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Charles128 Vehicles arent 2 pounds, adn they arent bouncy balls either. [/quote] But it would be so much more fun if they were
    Add more answer options

    Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post.

  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Jesse16z No odd physics makes Halo Halo. Few games actually follow proper physics.[/quote] not true, games like Crysis or (dare I say it) Call of duty have realistc physics, or, in CoD's case, complete lack of. Vehicles arent 2 pounds, adn they arent bouncy balls either.
    Add more answer options

    Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post.

preload icon
preload icon
preload icon
You are not allowed to view this content.