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#Halo

8/29/2009 8:26:26 PM
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Humanity are not Forerunners, but in fact Precursors? [Update 2.0]

All throughout the Halo trilogy, we have been led to believe there is a connection between the Forerunners and Humanity. For example, Halo can only be fired by a human, 343 Guilty Spark recognises humanity as "Reclaimers," naming the Covenant as 'Meddlers.' The terminals also imply a deep connection. Now, many have speculated that Forerunners are humans, yet more advanced. Some believe that Forerunners adopted us as their heirs. There are a fair few crazy theories out there, most, if not all, basically stating that humans are in some way descended from Forerunners. Now I approach you with a different outlook. What if humanity were not descended from the Forerunners, but what if they were, in fact, the fabled Precursors' last legacy? First, I'll dismiss the argument that 343 Guilty Spark says "You are Forerunner," to John-117 by saying this - Spark has always been confused, in Combat Evolved, he believed you were the Forerunner who activated Halo the first time around. In the Bestarium, it makes mention that all of Spark's observations are 'Under Investigation', whereas Tangent's (Monitor of Installation 05) observations are all confirmed. Now I know what you're thinking: "Wolverfrog, you nutter! They can't be precursors, that's impossible!" But is it really? Let's start by taking a look at what the word 'Reclaimer' really means. To recover, to reclaim what was once yours. Now I don't see why the Forerunners would attribute humanity with such a term, it wouldn't make sense if humans are supposed to be the adopted race of the Forerunners. However, assuming hypothetically that humanity are in fact the last remnant of the Precursors, it would make sense. A safe thing to assume would be that Forerunner technology is based off Precursor technology, much in the same way that the Covenant base their technology off the Forerunners. Now if that is the case, then it would make sense that the Forerunners would name the humans 'Reclaimer', to inherit, and regain all that they lost. In the terminals, the Librarian, love of the Didact, refers to Earth as Eden, and a place of wonder. Iris, the Halo 3 ARG, also has a little to say on this. [quote][i]The anomalous world is in a perilous location beyond the line. The secrets it holds must be preserved, plans within plans within plans. [b]The inhabitants; these unique denizens, must be researched. They may hold answers to our own mysteries[/b]. What irony that we discovered this treasure, only at the end of things. But what fortune that we still had time to save them. The thing we built on that world will vouchsafe their lives, but perhaps one day it will be used for its intended purpose. If the plan succeeds, and they are saved, it will be a good world. If the plan fails, and the adversary succeeds, it will remain an enigma forever with no one left to reclaim it. [/i][/quote] Now you see, it is talking about Earth, and the 'unique denizens' are humanity. It leaves you with the questions, why must we be researched? What answers can we give to the Forerunners? Surely simply being chosen by the Forerunners to carry on their work in the event that they perish does not grant us this amount of awe? I believe that Earth is a Precursor world, perhaps their home world. At the very height of their power, the precursors were the dominant force throughout the universe. However, due to unknown reasons, they vanished, passing down a mantle to their chosen race to continue their legacy: the Forerunners. However, what if the Precursors had [i]not[/i] been wiped out, but in fact, merely faded away, realising that omniscience was a terrible burden. A likely scenario is that the Precursors encountered the Flood, which would make the Flood much like the Reapers in Mass Effect; they wipe out cultures once they are advanced enough. The Flood could have forced the Precursors back into hiding, where they lost all their technology. Eventually, perhaps only one world, Earth, remained, and so eventually the Precursors had lost all of their knowledge and power, and became what we know today as humanity. I know you think a species 'devolving' seems unlikely, but I will direct you here to the case of the Brutes. At one point in their history, they were as advanced as the Covenant, until a civil war threw them back into the industrial age. Something similar of this sort could have happened to the Precursors. In the sixth terminal, the Librarian states this to the Didact. [quote]We knew this was a special place because of them, but unless you've been here, you can't know. [/quote] Now that seems to be good proof. She is calling Earth a special place because of [i]them[/i]. Just who are 'them?' Humanity springs to mind, but what if she was talking about the Precursors? It's a long shot, but it's an option, one that I believe. I've probably missed out a lot, I shall scourer the terminals again and make necessary edits. Thanks for reading, please voice your opinion. [quote][/quote] [b]Update 1.2[/b] (I had this all neatly typed up, but it got deleted by a posting error. So forgive me if some of this update doesn't make sense, it's late at night and I'm kind of tired.) Reach is situated within the Epsilon Eridani system, a mere 10.5 lightyears from the Sol System, and it's closest neighbouring system. Now, let's go with the idea that Earth was in fact, the Precursor homeworld. Once they had achieved space exploration level, it's likely the first system they would have discovered is the Epsilon Eridani system. The Precursors would have also discovered Reach, and probably inhabited it. Now let's jump to First Strike. Halsey and the Spartans discover a network of what they believe to be 'Forerunner caverns' underneath the ONI CASTLE facility. Inside these ruins, they discover a crystal, which can bend space and time. It seems awfully advanced, even for the Forerunners. Now, what if the Forerunners hadn't built the caverns and crystal, but the Precursors had? I'm not just thinking up random ideas as I go along though. What I find unlikely is that the Forerunners would have discovered Reach, but a few light years away from Earth, and have the time to construct caverns and house a ridiculously advanced crystal within, yet not discover Earth and humanity until a short time before activating Halo. Why would they waste time constructing such a complex when they were faced with extinction? My opinion is that the Precursors built it. Which is why, when Fred 104 touches the glyphs on the complex, he gets a 'Frustratingly familiar' feeling, as if he's seen them before. Genetic instincts perhaps, from humanity's Precursor ancestors? Simply becoming Reclaimers of the Forerunners wouldn't give humanity instinctive knowledge of how their technology works. And if the Forerunners based all their technology off of the Precursors relics they had discovered, it would explain why the Master Chief sub conciously could activate the various devices upon Halo. And, running along with this idea that Reach had been colonised by the Precursors, what if every UNSC Colony world which had mysterious 'Forerunner artefacts' were in fact, also Precursor? Perhaps humanity was merely following in their Precursors ancestors ancient footsteps, as they themselves first ventured into the Galactic beyond. [b]Update 2.0[/b] Oh Lord, this is all too perfect. The first Halo Legends episode, [i]The Babysitter[/i] was released, and it speaks volumes for this theory. The ODSTs have a mission alongside a Spartan to assassinate a Prophet at some unknown alien ruins. Cortez, the ODST squad leader, at some point in the mission briefing says: [quote]"The architecture is not Covenant design and it sure as hell wasn't built by humans. It pre-dates both sides."[/quote] As I was watching this I nodded along and thought, 'Forerunner'. That's what it pointed to right? Perhaps not. Later on when we actually see these ruins, they sure look confusing. It actually looks more like human ancient Japanese design than Forerunner. Naturally, everyone is complaining about it, saying it isn't Forerunner. And perhaps it isn't. Perhaps it is Precursor. Now let's say, back in the day, the Precursors built some structures like that, with that design. They colonise the planet their human descendants (Remember the greater theory) walk upon hundreds of thousands of years later. And they build these ruins. Now what if, in the Haloverse, Japanese building designs were inspired by ancient Precursor blueprints that the ancient Japanese discovered? What if those ruins on the planet in [i]The Babysitter[/i] are in fact meant to look like they do? Not Forerunner ruins, but Precursor. Also, the statues inside the ruins show what seem to be animals usually found on Earth. And who do we theorise do originate from Earth? That's right, the Precursors. If the Forerunners had built the ruins, then surely they would have images of their Gods, not animals. [b]In other words: [/b] - Precursors colonise planet, build ruins we see in [i]The Babysitter.[/i] - Precursors then become humanity after catastrophic event. - Halo is fired by Forerunners. - Precursor remnants (humans) repopulate Earth. - Ancient Japanese discover incredibly old Precursor building blueprints, design their buildings in the same way. - ODST squad and Spartan in [i]The Babysitter[/i] discover these ancient ruins, Halo fans cry out "But they're not Forerunner!" - Because they aren't. They're Precursor. [b]Last minute input: [/b][url=http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=18391672&postcount=243]Oh my God, Frankie just practically confirmed this section of the theory![/url] [Edited on 11.07.2009 3:54 PM PST]

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  • Well, it was fun while it lasted. At least we finally know the truth, now. I need to pick up Cryptum as soon as possible.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] falconslayer93 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Terminus [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] falconslayer93 UPDATE 3.0 Humanity is not Precursors Halo Cryptum FTL[/quote] But the Gravemind is.[/quote] Hasn't been stated. The flood attacked before the Precursor was found, so thus he can't be gravemind. My guess is that he just got infected and his knowledge was taken.[/quote] It is my opinion that whatever intelligence or overmind the flood had it was overwritten by the much stronger mind of the Precursor. Just as now Born Stellar is now Didact, The Gravemind is the Precursor.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Terminus [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] falconslayer93 UPDATE 3.0 Humanity is not Precursors Halo Cryptum FTL[/quote] But the Gravemind is.[/quote] Hasn't been stated. The flood attacked before the Precursor was found, so thus he can't be gravemind. My guess is that he just got infected and his knowledge was taken.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] falconslayer93 UPDATE 3.0 Humanity is not Precursors Halo Cryptum FTL[/quote] But the Gravemind is.

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  • UPDATE 3.0 Humanity is not Precursors Halo Cryptum FTL

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] carby21 Forerunners created humans in the halo universe. Watch "Origins" in Halo: Legends.[/quote]First off, I'm going to dismiss that by saying this, when the rings fired in origins, they destroyed everything. Forerunner, flood, everything. Here's the problem, and why i believe that legends is non cannoncidal (aside from 1337). Halo was created to destroy the flood by killing its food source. That means Humans, the Covenant, and forerunners were there food source. Kill the food, kill the flood. So when the rings fired on origins, they should have killed everything, [b]BUT[/b] the flood! [quote]The Sacred Rings. What are they? - Arbiter to 343 Guilty Spark. Weapons of last resort. Built by the [u]Forerunners[/u] to eliminate potential Flood hosts, thereby rendering the Parasite harmless. - To the Arbiter about Halo. And those who made the rings. What happened to the Forerunners? - Question to 343 Guilty Spark. After exhausting every other strategic option, my creators activated the rings. They, and all additional sentient life within three radii of the galactic center, died, as planned. Would you like to see the relevant data? - To the Arbiter.[/quote] Also, listen to what cortana says about halo. [quote]You have no idea how this ring works, do you? Why the Forerunners built it? Halo doesn't kill Flood, it kills their food. Humans, Covenant, whatever! We're all equally edible. The only way to stop the Flood is to starve them to death. And that's exactly what Halo is designed to do; wipe the galaxy clean of all sentient life. You don't believe me? Ask him.[/quote]You may have seen the humans being returned back to Earth. That would be the only reason as to you thinking they created the humans. *EDIT* If you haven't read the terminals, the forerunner discovered the humans, not created the Humans. This furthers the point of legends being non cannoncidal. [Edited on 01.03.2011 12:54 PM PST]

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  • .... -blam!- its all coming together... this makes that new Halo Cryptum book all the more worthwhile [Edited on 12.29.2010 1:33 AM PST]

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  • End of story.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Sierra 1993DJC Not Precursors. Not Forerunners. Just Reclaimers, regular Humans, Forerunners' little friends. Similar to how Forerunners were Precursors little friends. That's it. End of story.[/quote] Yes, My Lord, my apologies for not recognizing your universal omnipotence and comprehension of the higher mysteries of canon. Your opinion is your opinion, but it doesn't make it fact any more than our suppositions are made fact by us calling them theories. They are not as likely given the new Greg Bear novels (well, mine isn't, but Wolver's is made even moreso) but they are still not impossible, and unless you [i]do[/i] work for Microsoft (and are preparing to be fired, my guess would be) your knowledge is no greater than our own. Lesser, perhaps.

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  • Not Precursors. Not Forerunners. Just Reclaimers, regular Humans, Forerunners' little friends. Similar to how Forerunners were Precursors little friends. That's it. End of story.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] carby21 Forerunners created humans in the halo universe. Watch "Origins" in Halo: Legends. [/quote] No that was during the Great Journey when they were returning all the sentient lifeforms they had cataloged back to their home planets. *at least that is the scene I believe you are referring to. [Edited on 12.24.2010 1:09 PM PST]

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  • Wolverfrog just read part of Cryptum, expecting update soon.

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  • Forerunners created humans in the halo universe. Watch "Origins" in Halo: Legends.

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  • Yes, there are many references to religion in Halo, but in all these cases there has been a rational explanation for them all. If the Precursors ascended to some kind of divinity then it would not, in my eyes, by a rational explanation. They could have ascended to some higher state of being like existing as concious energy but that would be far too similar to Stargate for my liking.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Wolverfrog I don't think the series actually wants to be spiritual and talk about divine powers and realms as if they exist. Halo seems to try to do the exact opposite of that, in fact.[/quote] it is all symbolic, like how the Thel's persecution and reinstatement as a hero for the Covenant as "Arbiter" is like Christ's crucifixion and rebirth a few days later (and Thel's persecution looked almost exactley like the Crucifixion, in the way he was strung up by the wrists in the shape of a cross.) How the Ark was where all beings in the galaxy for Halo and the earth for the Bible both were the only way to survive an all consuming Flood. don't know if you've ever seen [url=http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Biblical_References]this[/url]page, but its got a whole list of how biblical Halo really is. So it would actually seem it IS trying to instill at least some sort of religious-spiritual mindset. Is the entire premise for all of the major conflicts in Halo not based on the religious, spiritual, and faiths of civilizations? The Covenant's searching for spiritual answers through the Great Journey The Forerunners unwavering and blind worship of the Precursors and the Mantle of Life (and how that was there down fall) All of Humanity's faith poured into a small group of near mythical super-soldiers Halo is grounded very much in spirituality, but the thing is its not very obvious; its all hidden in obscure symbolism, but its there. What we've seen, and how it can arguably be considered to be the opposite of spirituality, is a "realistic" view. Other stories take things too literally; thats why I like Halo so much. Halo isn't filled with Chariots in the Sky, or Lightning Bolts from Heaven; it is based more in our small, insignificant interpretation of things far--[i] far [/i]--greater then us, things we can't comprehend. So of course it'll appear as if this isn't a spiritual story; its how we percieve things in the modern world. But if you open your eyes and look at how truly deep this story really goes, you might just be amazed at what you'll find. So it may not be a straight up story of religion on the exterior, but it is--at its deepest, most obscure core--something that definetly touches the religious side of things. Remember: Halo is known for its obscurity, for its vast mysteries that we can't fully comprehend even ten years later. I'm not saying you're ever going to see Jesus himself come down from Heaven and battle the Devil, but a symbolic event similar to that could happen. And does the word "Tran-Sentient" not imply some sort of power we cannot comprehend? Does the ability to wipe out the entire galaxy with the push of a button not sound like playing God? Does accelerating Evolution and the Precursors apparently creating Humanity and the Forerunners "in their image" not imply some sort of god-like power (Even almost word for word taking something out of modern Religions)? and on a less philosophical note: Does it HAVE to be spiritual for there to be gods and demons? Like the Ancients in Stargate, those guys from Warhammer 40K, etc. Gods=/="praise Jesus" It could also less symobolically be a simple plot element. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Wolverfrog Ascend to what, though? [/quote] Don't know, that's why it was an assumption. See, I, like you, enjoy thinking up random thoughts and opinions based on limted evidence, and seeing if they end up ammounting to anything.

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  • Ascend to what, though? I don't think the series actually wants to be spiritual and talk about divine powers and realms as if they exist. Halo seems to try to do the exact opposite of that, in fact.

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  • Also, is it also not a possibility that the Precursors ascended? Here me out: The Mantle of Life is a very important piece of Forerunner ideologies. It was supposedly passed down to the Forerunners by the Precursors just before the latter vanished. Now, it would seem that whoever holds the Mantle is "special" in some way shape or form, and they ALWAYS seem to disappear seemingly without a trace as to where they went. Covenant religion states that firing the Halo Rings opens the Path to Godhood, the Great Journey. And as a matter of fact, they were close to getting it right, but they missed one very important detail: the Forerunners left the galaxy AFTER they fired the Rings, not BECAUSE they fired the Rings, but they did leave, and to where, no one knows. The Great Journey is real, it was a real Forerunner undertaking; they wanted to "Follow in their footsteps" as has been stated countless times throughout these forums. Their meaning Precursor, and the Covenant ideology of ascending to Godhood most likely came from a similar ideology from the Forerunners, of partaking in this Great Journey to ascendance (because that ideology didn't come from no where). It would appear all holders of the Mantle of Life undertake this Great Journey once they're time with it is finished and they pass it down to the next Reclaimer Race, and the Cycle of Life repeats until it is their time, and so on and so on forever. In keeping with how the Gravemind symbolizes the Devil, it could be said he is trying to break into this Godhood that the Precursors could have denied him (I'm under the possibly insane impression the Mind is a Precursor trapped forever in this world as punishment for whatever he may have done to piss the Precursors off, like Lucifer being banished to Hell). Notice how the Mind seems to always have a personal vendetta against the Mantle Holders? Maybe he feels like he can continue to defy the Precursors if he destroys the Mantle Races. For whatever reason, out of the galaxies he must have consumed over his time, the Milky Way seems to be the one he has the most trouble with and the one he REALLY wants most. In my eyes, I think at the end of it all, we'll pass the Mantle down to the Elites, as they were the ONLY race in the galaxy willing to put aside old differences and do what was obviously right for the galaxy, but that's just a blind assumption. Anyway, don't know if this ammounts to anything, but from what I've seen, it does make sense. Perhaps the Legendary Planet holds all the answers...

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  • Well, when you think about it, Halo has a sense of irony when it comes to the antagonist's view on the protagonists: they are fighting and killing those they should worship instead. (Covenant vs Reclaimers) I suppose if that sense of irony persists, the Forerunners were fighting humanity and at the same time trying to find out what happened to the Precursors--what did they do to anger them into leaving--when the whole while they were fighting the Precursors in s severely weakened and ungodly state. And if that's true: why is it we are always the center of religions? And on that same note, why do we ALWAYS get our ass kicked by every race out there?

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  • No, but something had to happen to them. It's possible that something cataclysmic occurred which forced them to retreat back to this galaxy. They may have referred to themselves as humanity, and the Forerunners just termed them with 'Precursors' for lack of a better word -- it basically means 'those who came before.' This weakened humanity may have encountered the Forerunners (who they encountered thousands of years previously, affecting their gene strain), and have forgotten over time their role in the Forerunners' growth. A war may have ensued, with the Forerunners coming out on top. Humans at the time may have had more advanced technology but their numbers would be few and the technology outdated/old/failing. That's a way it could have happened. It's not especially likely, but we'll just have to wait and see.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Wolverfrog [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Warriersolid47 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Terminus Chapter one and two of Cryptum seem to indicate that humanity once was a very powerful possibly tier 2 or 1 civilization +10,000 years before the flood war and was wiped out in a human-forerunner war. I'd say its a pretty good chance that it was this ancient human civilization that built those structures on Heian.[/quote] Why would the librarian be surprised to find humanity living on Earth and act like they had no knowledge of humanity before? If they had fought another tier 2 civilization some data would have been stored on it and humanity wouldn't have been a surprise find.[/quote] I imagine that Cryptum has retcon'd the terminals where necessary; it is stated very clearly in Cryptum that there was a human-Forerunner war which humanity lost, before being devolved and exiled to Earth. This changes the theory a little bit. It's possible they're still the final remnants Precursors and the Forerunners don't know it, and so they ironically exile the beings they worship, but I admit it is unlikely. We'll have to wait for the book to fully be released. This theory did get a few things right in connecting the dots to guess that humanity had once been interstellar, but they may not be Precursors. Oh well. You win some, you lose some.[/quote] Do we even know if that the Precursors actually/accidently had their civilization destroyed?

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Warriersolid47 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Terminus Chapter one and two of Cryptum seem to indicate that humanity once was a very powerful possibly tier 2 or 1 civilization +10,000 years before the flood war and was wiped out in a human-forerunner war. I'd say its a pretty good chance that it was this ancient human civilization that built those structures on Heian.[/quote] Why would the librarian be surprised to find humanity living on Earth and act like they had no knowledge of humanity before? If they had fought another tier 2 civilization some data would have been stored on it and humanity wouldn't have been a surprise find.[/quote] I imagine that Cryptum has retcon'd the terminals where necessary; it is stated very clearly in Cryptum that there was a human-Forerunner war which humanity lost, before being devolved and exiled to Earth. This changes the theory a little bit. It's possible they're still the final remnants Precursors and the Forerunners don't know it, and so they ironically exile the beings they worship, but I admit it is unlikely. We'll have to wait for the book to fully be released. This theory did get a few things right in connecting the dots to guess that humanity had once been interstellar, but they may not be Precursors. Oh well. You win some, you lose some.

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  • heres hoping your right remember the OTHER Big thread about Blue team and all the effort put into it only to be Glassed per say [Edited on 12.23.2010 11:55 PM PST]

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Warriersolid47 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Terminus Chapter one and two of Cryptum seem to indicate that humanity once was a very powerful possibly tier 2 or 1 civilization +10,000 years before the flood war and was wiped out in a human-forerunner war. I'd say its a pretty good chance that it was this ancient human civilization that built those structures on Heian.[/quote] Why would the librarian be surprised to find humanity living on Earth and act like they had no knowledge of humanity before? If they had fought another tier 2 civilization some data would have been stored on it and humanity wouldn't have been a surprise find.[/quote] Perhaps we can look at what the Librarian said a little differently then, perhaps she was not going on about discovering humanity at the last minute perhaps she was talking about discovering something in humanity at the last minute. Does put a whole new spin on the whole Reclaimer thing. (But as I have not read the relevant quotes from the Librarian in a while I may be talking out of my ass) *Also Crytum says that the Librarian had been on Earth for thousands of years before the Firing of the Halos

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Terminus Chapter one and two of Cryptum seem to indicate that humanity once was a very powerful possibly tier 2 or 1 civilization +10,000 years before the flood war and was wiped out in a human-forerunner war. I'd say its a pretty good chance that it was this ancient human civilization that built those structures on Heian.[/quote] Why would the librarian be surprised to find humanity living on Earth and act like they had no knowledge of humanity before? If they had fought another tier 2 civilization some data would have been stored on it and humanity wouldn't have been a surprise find.

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  • Chapter one and two of Cryptum seem to indicate that humanity once was a very powerful possibly tier 2 or 1 civilization +10,000 years before the flood war and was wiped out in a human-forerunner war. I'd say its a pretty good chance that it was this ancient human civilization that built those structures on Heian.

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  • Question though, in the halo 3 terminals; the librarian discovers Earth and humanity on accident at the very end of the forerunner vs. flood conflict. The librarian called them special and built the ark so that humanity would survive the firing of the rings. And because the librarian found humanity "special" they made it so that humanity could use forerunner technology. Why is there so much being looked into them being the precursors unless there is some information I have not seen? Now I have no knowledge of "The Babysitter" and I would really like to know more about that but could it not be that the Forerunner built structures with humanity's image before the rings were activated?

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