[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Hylebos Putting your own Achievement UI into the game would allow you to also track your progress towards specific achievements, I recall one of the Gears of War games showing me that I was like 95,000 kills away from unlocking one of their achievements or something like that while I played it. [/quote] That was the best idea ever for achievements IMO. I find it incredibly frustrating not know how many more wins in need in a playlist or kills with a weapon that I don't like. I would like to see a set of achievements more like Halo 3. Challenging in and of themselves but nothing that makes me grind it out trying to get it. With the exception of one or two lone wolf achievements I felt none of them were "impossible" to get. I would love to see that again.

I finally got around to reading this. You did not disappoint, but I have a few questions. [quote]>What are your thoughts on the 'arcade' styled firefight achievements in ODST, [i]ie. Firefight: [insert map name] - Score over [integer] points on [Map][/i], as opposed to the the similar campaign achievements you mention in the OP? >What do you think of the 'Naughty Naughty' and 'Good Samaritian' achievements in ODST?[/quote] [Edited on 01.08.2013 5:35 AM PST]

My only complaint about achievements are the circumstantial multiplayer ones. I'm still trying to get Steppin' Razor. Otherwise, I will say that Vidmaster achievements make for enjoyable experiences.

I was going to call out TL;DR, but the moment I started reading, I knew this was a really good thread. I am not such an achievement whore, but I have some friends that are. This one guy from my frienlist looks up EVERYTHING on the internet, and he had 3 playthroughs of Crysis 2 on easy, to do all of those achievements. But on topic, I think it is a great idea to put in some more difficult or teaching achievements. The fun thing of the Vidmasters was also that you really got something from it, rather than only Gamerscore. as Bungie has added many easter eggs in the game, I think it is a good idea toput in some easter-egg achievements. Just like in Halo 4 (YES I KNOW!) where you could find a RvB egg in every episode. All in all, I agree with you, but I'd like to know more about Destiny before I start worrying about the Gamerscore in the game.

I like achievements that award me for doing things I wouldn't usually do in the game, or for using new features. Although obviously these don't work too well in competitive multiplayer (like Mongoose Mowdown). Difficult achievements are cool too, so long as they aren't going to be impossible for some people to complete.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] AcedannyK 7 Bringing back Vidmaster-esque achievements would be freaking sweet.[/quote] this please

Any time I get any achievment, my friend calls me an Achievment Whore. Especially when I get some of the Halo Achievments before him. Anyways, I always liked the hard and challenging achievments, but I never liked the ones that require no effort, those aren't fun to get.

What I really wonder is how they are going to be able to integrate the policies of Microsoft and Sony for their achievements. Destiny is a cross-platform (PC, Xbox, PS3, iirc) game, I hope this won't dull down the challenging aspect of those hard-to-get achievements.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] wcd45 I want some hard info on Destiny before I even think about GS.[/quote]Completely understandable, I simply wanted to predict the sorts of Achievements that would be in Destiny based on what worked and what didn't in the Halo trilogy. There will be plenty of time for things like "I think there should be an achievement for catching a Janglegoose armed only with a Hookrifle and a Mucus Grenade!" after major details have been announced. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Tom T Integer achievements do have their place. I would recommend they be used with the same logic as file share achievements, encouraging players to explore the breadth of game features, with a difference of also ensuring players spend a more significant period of time exploring those features. If you have something simple like "score a flag cap on a legendary map" it is likely to be unlocked after one or two dedicated searches. In this time the player might understand how the variant works, but understanding and appreciation are not one and the same. If instead you provide an integer (large enough to ensure long play time, short enough that players do not ignore it entirely), and perhaps also add a positive reinforcer ("win"), e,g, "win 20 Team Objective matches", hopefully more players would move from just playing Team Slayer all the time and have a more varied, enjoyable experience. I also support cooperative achievements, to reinforce the importance of things like team work and communication. The wheelman achievement in Halo 3 was a good example of this, as it was not something the average player is likely to get at random (unlike a lot of multiplayer achievements). It requires players remain in a vehicle, with a partner, for a long period, leading them to understand the real value of vehicle play -- something easily neglected, but popular enough to have spawned and sustained entire subcommunities.[/quote]I suppose I should clarify what I meant by the entire "Get on " comment. Specifically, I find those sorts of achievements unmemorable, so if they exist in a game, they had better exist to help instruct players about different aspects of the game. The thing with ODST is that you don't really learn much from being forced to get 10 rocket launcher kills on Kizingo Boulevard, or 10 Spartan Laser kills on ONI Alpha Site, or killing 10 enemies with the Flamethrower on Data Hive. Well, if memory serves, some of those achievements were frustrating because there wasn't enough ammo in that weapon for that level (that memory mostly exists for the Rocket Launcher), so I suppose you could say that the purpose of that Achievement is to teach beginners to conserve power weapon ammo till when it makes the biggest impact, but all the same, surely we could have had something a little more inspiring. I also suppose I was overly harsh on multiplayer achievements in general, and that things like scoring flags and getting wheelmen are definitely teaching experiences. I just have little faith in memorable and challenging ingame competitive multiplayer achievement arising that can't easily be cheesed for or are statistically improbable. Though something I would definitely like to see with Bungie's next game is an achievement at the very least encouraging players to try out that game's form of a ranking system (which I would very much like to see exist). There seemed like a distinct lack of encouragement to play the Arena in Reach, but that is a story for another thread. [quote]I also have a general idea that I might as well share, vaguely inspired by the way challenges were handled in Halo Reach. I am referring to the feature where you could jump to the appropriate campaign level, with all the required skulls activated, just by opening the challenges menu and selecting the relevant challenge. Why not flag different modes/playlists with "available achievements", detailing what is available, how it is unlocked, and the gamerscore rewarded. Say you hover over Team Objective, see *3 achievements available* and are given intel upon hitting x. Or if you back out and hover over multiplayer it could provide a longer list (still condensed, without all the campaign clutter) which could provide players with an automatic jump to playlist feature, not dissimilar to that used with Reach's challenges. The logic behind this stems from my own frustration of having to navigate a lengthy list of 50 achievements for every game that I own. With Halo I could manage as the majority of achievements were instantly familiar, but I don't think achievements are particularly approachable for the average gamer. I also doubt the need to constantly refresh themselves on what they need do, by scrolling through an extensive list, is particularly enjoyable. I think breaking down achievements would be ideal and am honestly surprised no developer has done it already (to my knowledge, anyway). Doing so also comes with the additional advantage of being able to increase the level of intel available for players. Developers need not worry so much about the constraints of the achievement UI, or brevity in general, as players would be bombarded by less information at any one time. An example of this additional information might be "for this achievement you will need to team up with 3 friends, if you are running short why not enlist help from bungie.net's Classifieds/Network forum [url]http://www.bungie.net/teamup[/url]?)[/quote]This is another decent idea. Putting your own Achievement UI into the game would allow you to also track your progress towards specific achievements, I recall one of the Gears of War games showing me that I was like 95,000 kills away from unlocking one of their achievements or something like that while I played it. There could also be little pop-ups like "If you play the Campaign with these settings, you can't earn the following achievements. Is that okay with you?" to help make achievements more accessible to newer players. Lots of good stuff that could be applied. It will also be interesting to see how the default achievement UI improves with the next Xbox. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Bricypoo There should also be one for doing incredibly stupid things that make all of your teammates angry. So people like me have a reason to keep playing. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Tom T[/quote][/quote]Yes, we should definitely add a "Get Betrayal Booted in 10 different games" achievement. >_> <_< [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Tom T [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Bricypoo There should also be one for doing incredibly stupid things that make all of your teammates angry. So people like me have a reason to keep playing. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Tom T[/quote][/quote]Your desire to be annoying gave me an idea; you have a gift, thank you. I wonder if it would be possible to add "play a game where all players are in game chat and have an XBL headset plugged in". Annoying perhaps, but it might encourage people to communicate again, and help combat the radio silence that ruins Xbox Live for the newcomer. Not that I actually know what the situation is like, having been mute banned from Reach for over a year. Thanks, Bungie! >_>[/quote]I imagine that there's some way for the game to test if all players in the lobby have headsets, yeah, I definitely like the sound of that achievement. An achievement that goes along the lines of the Linktacular medal from Halo 3 would also be good for getting people on the website. On the topic of the Mute Ban, that's definitely going to be another wall for another day, I promise :) [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] ecartman1214 But it was Bungies [i][u]SECOND[/i][/u] time with achievements (Halo 2 PC had achievements y'all)[/quote]I know that Bungie worked in part to make Halo 2 PC a reality, but I doubt that they helped to work on something as trivial as achievements. Helping to make the port from the Xbox to the PC is one thing, because the folks at Bungie know how their systems work and could spot potential problems with the porting process. Giving the porting team help with designing achievements is another. [url=http://www.xbox360achievements.org/game/halo-2-pc/achievements/]I do like some of these Achievements though.[/url] Achievements like Ninja and Flaming Ninja definitely haven't been explored in Bungie's games before, and achievements like Violent Cartographer and Rainman seem like great ways to get players to try every type of food on their plate. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] burritosenior You make long threads just for the sake of making threads long at this point bro. It's a no-go. >.< [/quote]Please. As usual, I refuse to sacrifice the depth and the meaning of my thoughts because some people don't like to invest five or ten minutes of their time into reading them. In a verbal conversation with another colleague who was passionate about videogame design, I could easily use ten times the amount of words I used in this thread. These threads aren't long because I want them to be long, these threads are long because they need to be long in order to explain the flow of my thoughts and reasoning. Too Long; Didn't Read: Hylebos doesn't do what Hylebos does for Hylebos. Hylebos does what Hylebos does because Hylebos is Hylebos!

You make long threads just for the sake of making threads long at this point bro. It's a no-go. >.< Long as they don't follow 343's map specific BS or focus on multiplayer ('challenge' be damned because it isn't a 'challenge' to get something based on luck... it's just annoying.). And that's all I have to say about that. [Edited on 01.05.2013 8:07 PM PST]

I think that if different difficulties are implemented, completing the campaign on the highest difficulty should unlock an achievement called "See you starside"

Easter Egg Achievements.

I have to say the Halo 3 lone wolves achievements were murder. 2 for 1 was basically luck. Overkill, Killing Frenzy, the Sword Triple Kill, Mongoose Mowdown, all should have been on any ranked gametype. But it was Bungies [i][u]SECOND[/i][/u] time with achievements (Halo 2 PC had achievements y'all) So what can you expect? I do appreciate the smaller achievements and look forward to them being in the game. But really the ones that burn me up the most are just the luck achievements, map specific achievements like "on map X get Y kills with the Z gun".

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] AcedannyK 7 Bringing back Vidmaster-esque achievements would be freaking sweet.[/quote]

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Tom T "play a game where all players are in game chat and have an XBL headset plugged in"[/quote]Hell yes, that is a good idea. Though I'd crank the integer up from 1 to 7. Yeah... seven.

I don't blame them, you are a real jerk. Jerks be jerking. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Tom T [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Bricypoo There should also be one for doing incredibly stupid things that make all of your teammates angry. So people like me have a reason to keep playing. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Tom T[/quote][/quote]Your desire to be annoying gave me an idea; you have a gift, thank you. I wonder if it would be possible to add "play a game where all players are in game chat and have an XBL headset plugged in". Annoying perhaps, but it might encourage people to communicate again, and help combat the radio silence that ruins Xbox Live for the newcomer. Not that I actually know, having been mute banned from Reach for over a year. Thanks, Bungie! >_>[/quote] [Edited on 01.05.2013 6:53 PM PST]

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Bricypoo There should also be one for doing incredibly stupid things that make all of your teammates angry. So people like me have a reason to keep playing. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Tom T[/quote][/quote]Your desire to be annoying gave me an idea; you have a gift, thank you. I wonder if it would be possible to add "play a game where all players are in game chat and have an XBL headset plugged in". Annoying perhaps, but it might encourage people to communicate again, and help combat the radio silence that ruins Xbox Live for the newcomer. Not that I actually know what the situation is like, having been mute banned from Reach for over a year. Thanks, Bungie! >_> [Edited on 01.05.2013 7:18 PM PST]

There should also be one for doing incredibly stupid things that make all of your teammates angry. So people like me have a reason to keep playing. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Tom T[/quote]

Integer achievements do have their place. I would recommend they be used with the same logic as file share achievements, encouraging players to explore the breadth of game features, with a difference of also ensuring players spend a more significant period of time exploring those features. If you have something simple like "score a flag cap on a legendary map" it is likely to be unlocked after one or two dedicated searches. In this time the player might understand how the variant works, but understanding and appreciation are not one and the same. If instead you provide an integer (large enough to ensure long play time, short enough that players do not ignore it entirely), and perhaps also add a positive reinforcer ("win"), e,g, "win 20 Team Objective matches", hopefully more players would move from just playing Team Slayer all the time and have a more varied, enjoyable experience. I also support cooperative achievements, to reinforce the importance of things like team work and communication. The wheelman achievement in Halo 3 was a good example of this, as it was not something the average player is likely to get at random (unlike a lot of multiplayer achievements). It requires players remain in a vehicle, with a partner, for a long period, leading them to understand the real value of vehicle play -- something easily neglected, but popular enough to have spawned and sustained entire subcommunities. I also have a general idea that I might as well share, vaguely inspired by the way challenges were handled in Halo Reach. I am referring to the feature where you could jump to the appropriate campaign level, with all the required skulls activated, just by opening the challenges menu and selecting the relevant challenge. Why not flag different modes/playlists with "available achievements", detailing what is available, how it is unlocked, and the gamerscore rewarded. Say you hover over Team Objective, see *3 achievements available* and are given intel upon hitting x. Or if you back out and hover over multiplayer it could provide a longer list (still condensed, without all the campaign clutter) which could provide players with an automatic jump to playlist feature, not dissimilar to that used with Reach's challenges. The logic behind this stems from my own frustration of having to navigate a lengthy list of 50 achievements for every game that I own. With Halo I could manage as the majority of achievements were instantly familiar, but I don't think achievements are particularly approachable for the average gamer. I also doubt the need to constantly refresh themselves on what they need do, by scrolling through an extensive list, is particularly enjoyable. I think breaking down achievements would be ideal and am honestly surprised no developer has done it already (to my knowledge, anyway). Doing so also comes with the additional advantage of being able to increase the level of intel available for players. Developers need not worry so much about the constraints of the achievement UI, or brevity in general, as players would be bombarded by less information at any one time. An example of this additional information might be "for this achievement you will need to team up with 3 friends, if you are running short why not enlist help from bungie.net's Classifieds/Network forum [url]http://www.bungie.net/teamup[/url]?) [Edited on 01.05.2013 7:18 PM PST]

Bravo, this post is treasure, I'll save the thread. I like what you say.

I want some hard info on Destiny before I even think about GS.

Challenging me with over-the-top difficult and zany achievements would make the next game great. Personally, I find beating any game on its highest difficulty grants me a great reward to myself. The achievement is just a bonus. [Edited on 01.05.2013 6:28 PM PST]

Bringing back Vidmaster-esque achievements would be freaking sweet.

Ah achievements. My best memory from going after those was finishing getting my last Achievement in Reach. Damn that DLC had some tough achievements. Also, Happy 5th! [Edited on 01.05.2013 5:49 PM PST]

It's so big and long EDIT: Also if you want a game with Challenging Achievments, download Perfect Dark off the XBLA. I still don't have them all. [Edited on 01.05.2013 5:49 PM PST]

[b]Thread continued from Post 1[/b] Fast forward to Halo 3: ODST. At this point Bungie has realized that achievement sets can be used to teach the player rather than simply challenge them. In particular, I feel that ODST struck a better balance between challenging achievements and instructional achievements than Halo 3 or Reach. And whereas Reach's instructional achievements simply taught you about different features in the game, ODST's achievements taught you about different ingame strategies in a very organic way: [quote][b]Halo 3: ODST - Stunning! (5G)[/b] Stun a vehicle with an overcharged plasma pistol and quickly kill the driver.[/quote]It might not even occur to the average gamer that they could disable vehicles using the Plasma Pistol, but thanks to this helpful achievement, now their abillity to fight against enemy vehicles in the Campaign, Firefight, and even Multiplayer is now greatly improved. Another thing that ODST did that Halo 3 didn't was that its achievements clearly told you in their descriptions that unlocking that particular achievement unlocked certain maps or player permutations. Such information is always nice to squeeze in, assuming that there are enough characters remaining in the description. My favorite ODST Achievements were the ones the involved the Audio Logs which told Sadie's Story, developed by Fourth Wall Studios. Not only was the process of finding all the Audio Logs a bit like looking for skulls (though they couldn't be hidden quite nearly as well as the skulls were for obvious reasons), but I very much enjoyed Sadie's Story, and getting to listen to the next chapter was always a reward in itself. I definitely think that Destiny should continue the trend set forth by the Halo 3 Terminals, ODST Audio Logs, and Reach Datapads, and include its own side stories woven into a series of hidden collectables all over the world. Unfortunately as balanced as it may be, ODST's achievement set is not without its own blemishes. The particular blemishes that I'm thinking of usually take the form of achievements like: [quote][b]Halo 3: ODST - Both Tubes (5G)[/b] Get 10 Rocket kills on Kizingo Boulevard.[/quote]"Get <integer> <kill type> on <campaign level>" is a fairly lazy formula that will only end up creating a series of unmemorable achievements. It's unfortunate that Bungie didn't put a little extra effort into this region of the game, but otherwise I don't have a ton of problems with the ODST Achievements. Finally we come to Reach, Bungie's latest game and their last entry into the Halo universe. In my mind, Reach's biggest innovation in terms of Achievements was actually the Challenge system. While achievements like "Score a triple kill!" or "Get 20 headshots on this Campaign level!" made for particularly lame and unmemorable achievements in the previous Halo games, in Reach, they can be used for decent Daily Challenges, freeing up a ton of space for better things in the achievement list. Whereas you can only ship a game with 50 achievements, you can conceivably add an infinite number of Daily and Weekly challenges to the game, which allows you to save your best objectives for the achievement list, and shunt the rest of the filler into the Challenge system. Reach took advantage of the extra space to include plenty of great instructional achievements which helped to take the player on a tour of Campaign, Multiplayer, Firefight, and other subsystems, hitting on new features here and there with many of their achievements. Unfortunately, Reach's biggest problem achievement-wise was that the balance between instructional achievements and challenging / memorable achievements was not nearly as good as it was in ODST. A lot of the campaign achievements in particular felt pretty bland, and could have easily been replaced with something a little more inspiring. I was especially disappointed to see that there were no achievements involving hunting down some of the golden BOBs, or anything encouraging gamers to find the hidden datapads in the campaign. Reach is also unfortunately the home of my least favorite achievements in any of Bungie's games:[quote][b]Halo Reach - Firestarter (10G)[/b] Scored 50,000 points in a Firefight game.[/quote][quote][b]Halo Reach - Blaze Of Glory (25G)[/b] Scored 200,000 points in a Firefight game.[/quote][quote][b]Halo Reach - Heat In The Pipe (75G)[/b] Scored 1,000,000 points in a Firefight game.[/quote][quote][b]Halo Reach - Game, Set, Match (25G)[/b] Completed a Firefight set on Legendary without dying.[/quote]Remember how I said that if you're going to make a challenging achievement, you should make sure that there are no easy ways out, otherwise it would cheapen the experiences of anyone who tries legitimately? Yeah. Turns out that you could unlock all four of these otherwise difficult achievements in a single sitting by turning on god mode in Firefight's custom settings. WHOOPS. ...To be fair, Bungie did comment on this issue in the [url=http://www.bungie.net/News/content.aspx?type=topnews&cid=28689]first weekly update after Reach launched[/url], and although I'm somewhat unsatisfied with parts of their response, I understand that it was probably just an honest mistake, and I trust the folks at Bungie enough to not repeat it again. So if those were my least favorite achievements, then what do I consider the golden standard that Bungie should attempt to pursue in their future endeavors with Destiny? Take a look: [quote][b]Halo 3 - Vidmaster Challenge: Annual (0G)[/b] After 9/25/08, complete Halo on 4-player Legendary LIVE co-op, with Iron, and everyone in Ghosts.[/quote][quote][b]Halo 3: ODST - Vidmaster Challenge: Endure (25G)[/b] In Firefight, on any mission, pass the 4th Set on 4-player Heroic LIVE co-op.[/quote]I personally found these two achievements to be the strongest and the most memorable out of all the other achievements that Bungie has created. A key element that sets them apart from the rest was that not only were they challenging, but they required actual teamwork to complete properly. Nothing quite makes a memorable experience even more memorable than having friends to share it with, and especially if Destiny turns out to be as social of a game as we believe it to be, I would love to see more achievements that bring the community together. I feel that this area in particular has a ton of unexplored design space that is just waiting to be tapped. Ultimately I feel that Destiny's achievement set will resemble Reach's the most, which makes complete sense. Destiny will be a completely new intellectual property filled with all sorts of unknowns for the average gamer to discover, and it's important to shape the game's achievement set carefully to help guide gamers through the new world . With that being said, Destiny is the first of four games, and it's important for it to start the series off on the highest note possible, and creating a better balance between memorable achievements and the instructional achievements can only help in that regard. Destiny is the start of a whole new era, and while we can only dream of the challenges that it will bring, I hope this thread has given the reader a good idea about some of the Achievements that we might see in the new world! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Thank you for reading all the way to the end of my thread! As usual, I'm terrible at writing succinctly, and as ever I appreciate your patience and interest. If there were any parts of my thread that you feel need clarification, simply let me know, and I can go into additional detail. If you feel that there were any parts of my thread that you thought were wrong, you should definitely let me know! Our viewpoints evolve by butting heads with each other, and it would be a shame to pass up the chance to see what other community members think about this topic, just make sure to present your reasoning with civility and understanding. One limitation of this thread is that it only looks at Achievements from Bungie's games. I'm not much of an achievement hunter myself, so I didn't know if there were other games out there that handled achievements better than Bungie did. It would be particularly interesting to hear the viewpoints of anyone who has completed a ton of achievements from a wide variety of games. What are the best achievements that you've ever completed, and why? And while we're on the subject of Achievements, today is my 5th Bungie.net Anniversary! I've grown a lot as a person and I've had a tremendous amount of fun over these past five years, and I'm looking forward to another five years with this marvelous community and Bungie! Thanks for everything! ~Hylebos