[quote][/quote][b]Introduction[/b][quote][/quote]
[i]"The Spartan Laser was dead: to begin with. There is no doubt whatever about that. The register of his burial was signed by the Creative Director, the Audio Director, the Executive Producer, and the Campaign Design Lead. Sage signed it; and Sage's name was good upon 'Change, for anything he chose to put his hand to. Old Splazer was as dead as a door-nail."[/i]
[quote][b][u]Update[/b][/u]
As of the 16th page the main support for my arguement has been pretty much shot up by various comminuty members so for now this is just a collection of thoughts and reasoning rather than evidence and arguements.
I didn't think of sandbox balance on a map by map basis, and made a rather large assumption that both the Spartan Laser and the "Covenant Launcher" (see Part 1) would be on the same map every game. Various users pointed out that in fact, they could spawn on different maps as the vehicle / map balance required. As of now I can't come up with a way to counter this, so for now, my arguement is uncogent (for those of you who haven't taken a logic class, that means that the conclusion is unlikely given the premises). Feel free to keep dicussing however. The rest of the original post continues below:
[/quote]
Indeed, it is true, the Spartan Laser will likely not return for another dose of wacky shenanigans come Fall 2010 when Halo Reach is released.
[quote][b]Clarification:[/b] This is my conclusion that I have come to based upon the reasoning presented in the rest of the thread. Bungie has not officially confirmed that the Laser is out, nor have they officially confirmed that the laser is in. In this thread I am attempting to make a prediction of what Reach will be like, and I forsee it without the [i]exact[/i] one hit kill laser based anti-vehicle weapon we knew in Halo 3.
In the event that the Laser is in Reach, remember to flame me, not Bungie.
[/quote]
[b][u]At this moment I urge the reader, instead of angrily replying to my thread, to take the time to read my entire post[/u][/b], for I believe it to be well thought out and interesting, for not only am I the Harbinger of Doom for the Spartan Laser, but for the Covenant Beam Rifle as well, which must be murdered on this day to plunge a stake through the Spartan Laser's heart once and for all.
At this moment, the reader might ask: [i]"Why? Why would Bungie remove these weapons from Reach? They worked fine in Halo 3, and if you couldn't adapt to these weapons to survive, that's your own problem."[/i]
However, I seek to avoid that sort of discussion, at least in my original post. The point of this thread is not [i]"Should it be done?"[/i] but [i]"It is done, and here is why I believe this."[/i] I wish to show you why the Spartan Laser won't be in Reach based upon the evidence that we already know is in the game. Whether or not it was the right decision or whether there could have been some alternative that would have allowed the Spartan Laser to be in Reach is not the focus of this thread.
I wish you luck, this is going to be lengthy.
[quote][/quote][b]Part 1: The Covenant Launcher[/b][quote][/quote]
The first sign of the death of the Spartan Laser appeared last Wednesday in the [url=http://www.bungie.net/projects/reach/vidaudio.aspx?c=58&i=24995]Halo Reach Multiplayer Trailer.[/url]
About 47 seconds into the trailer you might have spotted [url=http://i868.photobucket.com/albums/ab249/Hylebosaiden/Bnet%20Image%20Resources/CovenantLauncher.jpg]This Weapon[/url] which will be referred to henceforth as [i]"The Covenant Launcher"[/i]. Clearly this weapon is a evolution of Fuel Rod Cannon, but it's appearance in the trailer was not the first time we've seen or [i][u]heard[/u][/i] of it.
In the [url=http://www.bungie.net/News/content.aspx?type=topnews&link=BWU_012910]Bungie Weekly Update: 01.29.10[/url], Urk was kind enough to provide readers with some source audio from some of the Halo: Reach weapons that Bungie had unveiled in the past couple of weeks. In addition to the weapons we already knew about, Urk gave us one extra sound file for the [url=http://www.bungie.net/images/games/reach/audio/Mystery.mp3][i]"Mysterious Newcomer".[/i][/url]
Upon listening to the sound file, the reader may realize that the sound of the shots fired at the 5 second mark is identical to the sound of the shots fired 47 seconds into the Halo: Reach Multiplayer Trailer. The common consensus is that, indeed, the Mysterious Newcomer and the Covenant Launcher are one and the same.
If you listen again to the sound file, from 0 seconds to 1 second you'll hear computer like sounds, followed by a whirring sound that increases in revolution from 1 second to 5 seconds when the shots are fired. Based upon this and the end resulting footage that we saw, I'm supposing that the weapon works as follows:
You aim the Covenant Launcher at a vehicular target, and you press and hold R to acquire a lock on the target, which takes a second. Once you are locked onto your target, you continue holding the trigger for four seconds while the Covenant Launcher charges up, at the end of which, if your are still locked on to your target, the weapon fires three bursts of plasma shots. If your reticule is close enough to the target when the shot leaves the tube, it will begin to home, otherwise it will travel in a straight line (which explains why the 3rd shot did not home on the warthog in the trailer, the hog must have been moving fast enough to throw the reticule off so the final shot that was fired wasn't aimed close enough to the target to respond to the lock.)
At this moment, the reader might be wondering: [i]"What the Hell does this have to do with the Spartan Laser?"[/i]
Balance.
An ideal sandbox is one where all the weapons have a clearly defined niche, so there are no worthless or redundant weapons.
Answer me the following question based on the following scenario honestly:
[quote]You are playing a game of Capture the Flag on Valhalla, and there is currently a warthog butchering your forces in the center of the map. Before you lies a table with two boxes labeled "A" and "B". [i]"What the hell did Shishka do to Valhalla this time?"[/i] you ask your friend.
Your friend replies [i]"The bastard put an anti-vehicle weapon in each of those boxes that are capable of destroying the Warthog that is losing us our map control. The weapon in box A requires a 4 second charge time before firing three homing shots that may or may not be dodged by your opponent. The weapon in box B requires a 4 second charge time before instantly killing your opponent if you are aiming your reticule at the target. Hurry up and choose, that warthog is really killing us out here."[/i][/quote]
I ask the reader: [i]"What weapon would you choose to ensure that your team succeeds?"[/i]
[quote][i]"Why, the weapon in box B of course,"[/i] you reply, [i]"If I use that to attack the Warthog, he'll have four seconds to break the line of sight with me or he'll die. On the other hand, if I use weapon in box A, he'll have four seconds to break the line of sight with me [u]and[/u] additional time to get to cover as my homing shots travel towards him. Because the weapon in box A give more time for my opponent to survive, of course I will use the weapon in box B."[/i][/quote]
And there you have it. If the Spartan Laser and the Covenant Launcher existed in the same game, the Covenant Launcher would become a useless weapon in comparison, like the Missile Pod, doomed only to be used as a first choice only when the Spartan Laser loses its charge.
The presence of the Covenant Launcher alone is reason enough to believe that the Spartan Laser has been axed, but I know this Community. You are very resourceful, and will find any solution you can Allow me to further extinguish your hope.
[Edited on 03.17.2010 9:55 AM PDT]
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Hylebos is probably spot on with his OP. That said, I'm finding I fundamentally disagree with the approach I think Sage is taking with the sandbox. The odd thing I keep being reminded of about what Bungie seems to be doing with the sandbox and what many in this community seem so set on is that people [i]think[/i] to have a balanced sandbox, you need to ensure every weapon has a defined role and that there's no overlap for fear of redundancy. My take on that is not every multiplayer map needs to feature the full weapon sandbox of a game, and I think a game like Reach would benefit from a very diverse weapon sandbox. In the OP, Hylebos brought up the point that, if the Spartan Laser were in Reach, it would make the Covenant launcher worthless. I entirely disagree. The reason is obvious: you wouldn't place them on the same map. IMO, having a diverse weapon sandbox with overlapping abilities, functions, and roles would enable level designers to really have a lot of choices with each weapon loadout on each level. For example, there's a debate about how the grenade launcher will perform and fear that it will be too much like the rocket launcher. There are obvious and inherent differences to each gun, but I see no need to tune them so that they are so differentiated that they can be squeezed onto the same map. In fact, I think that would be a terrible idea. What have we learned from a decade of playing Halo? Classes are definitely very much a part of this game. There are snipers. There are CQB weapons. There are heavy weapons. But how many maps in Halo 3 DON'T use the rocket launcher? Didn't that get a little boring? So in the case of the grenade launcher and the rocket launcher, as I said, there are innate differences that will affect performance, but I see no need to emphasize differentiation. Just put the rocket launcher on some maps to fill that heavy weapon role. On others, put the grenade launcher. This ensures a more varied experience, and then down the road, if a designer wants to change a loadout of a map for matchmaking purposes, he can swap out the heavy weapons to change the gameplay if only subtly. In the case of the laser, I think it would be great to have it as well as the Covenant launcher. Is the laser just oppressing the vehicles too much on a particular map? OK, use the Covey launcher. But this probably isn't what Sage is doing.
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This is funny tho. You put facts that pretty much confirm the Slpazer will not be in Reach and you did it politely and backed every thing you had to say up well. Yet people are so in denial they freak out and go on tantrums on here when you didn't even give them a reason to act like that. They can't even provide a good argument either it's just "Well..your a vehicle noob!" or "I saw it confirmed in a screen shot!", without even bothering to read your whole post. [Edited on 03.11.2010 8:56 PM PST]
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Majorspigot This is all rather silly when you consider that the Laser was present in the leaked screen shots.[/quote] Read the whole post ffs!
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This is all rather silly when you consider that the Laser was present in the leaked screen shots.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Hylebos [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] x SSO Clan x Hylebos, can you write my English report for me? Thanks man.[/quote] No. I am not going back to the hell that is Highschool English. I'm never restricting myself to the terrible five paragraph model ever again. Everything I learned in that class was wrong.[/quote] you got that damn right
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the pistol can hit from one barrier of sandtrap to the other, not just the gaurdian edge
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] x SSO Clan x Hylebos, can you write my English report for me? Thanks man.[/quote] No. I am not going back to the hell that is Highschool English. I'm never restricting myself to the terrible five paragraph model ever again. Everything I learned in that class was wrong. Edit: Huge Reply round coming tomorrow afternoon, stay tuned. [Edited on 03.11.2010 8:05 PM PST]
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They should put they splazer in custom along with the other dead wepon as a tribute to good old times and to make some wesome gametypes
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] hockeylevys15 I just really hope it (or something similar) is not in Reach. Vehicle gameplay is so much more fun without it.[/quote]Yeah Hylebos, can you write my English report for me? Thanks man.
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I could care less about the spartan laser.it's so annoying.
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That right there proves why the laser is overpowered. If your team has it, your vehicles will destroy. While the other team gets spawn camped up the wazoo, and there is nothing they can do about it. Or im just that good and the other team was a bunch of noobs that couldn't stick a warthog, pick up the rocket launcher, use the turret, use a power drain or the brute shot to take me out. Ill give a cookie to who ever can figure what map it was.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Halaxis Did you even read my post, or just decided to rush to a uniformed post?[/quote]That applies to this post. [quote]*it's a one-hit kill. True it fires three shots in one burst, but not all 3 shots have to land to score a vehicle kill. Wrong, 80 points per beam, so 2 have to hit to kill a person[/quote] The Spartan Laser actually shoots five shots. And hitting two of these, or even all five, is a walk in the park. [quote]*Unlimited range mostly (3/4 of sandtrap is close enough to infinite no matter how you word it.) Point makes no sense whats so ever[/quote]It means that the range...is long...and the Splazer guy can block off huge areas off the map...and kill the Hog across the map...how does that point make no sense? [quote]*5 shot battery And? Elaborate[/quote]That is greater than the number of veichles on a map. [quote]*instant travel time. Yes, HITSCAN. It's called that for a reason.[/quote]Yes, and that makes it overpowered. [quote]*Has a red light to alert people a laser is aiming at you but that can be avoided by looking away, charge up, then at the last moment aim at the vehicle. Besides the charge time on the laser is too short for a vehicle to go anywhere. That is an opinion, there for holds no water [/quote] That is a fact, and holds tons of water.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Mace NZ I have to say that I probabily agree with the opening post that th Splazer won't be in Reach. However I don't think it was as overpowered as some people are saying you just had to use team work so you team had the splazer before hoping in a vehicle. I went 43 for 0 in a warthog gunner on my other account while my team held the splazer.[/quote] That right there proves why the laser is overpowered. If your team has it, your vehicles will destroy. While the other team gets spawn camped up the wazoo, and there is nothing they can do about it.
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I have to say that I probabily agree with the opening post that th Splazer won't be in Reach. However I don't think it was as overpowered as some people are saying you just had to use team work so you team had the splazer before hoping in a vehicle. I went 43 for 0 in a warthog gunner on my other account while my team held the splazer.
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I want to add that I think the laser took skill if and only if you were fighting infantry with it on a small map. I think keeping the laser or something like it on maps like construct is perfectly fine. Maybe if the laser was made slightly easier to use against infantry and harder to use against vehicles, we'd be set. Of course, removing it completely works as well, and that's what seems to be happening.
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I <3 u Hylebos. Both Antiviper665 (Mava665) and I hope that the spiker is in Halo Reach. For your sake =)
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Link0Cable Considering there were pictures with the Spartan Laser have been released, and when looking at those pictures, every other element (DMR, health bars, grenade display) have all remained the same until now, I really doubt the Laser is out. The Laser and new Covenant Launcher can fill different niches, considering the Launcher tracks opponents whilst the Laser shoots in a straight line. Saying one cannot exist merely because a new weapon has been released is not exaclty a valid argument. Also, Bungie could try to balance the Laser by giving it a lower ammo cap or giving a longer cooldown/charge time. Just because the Laser was a tad overpowered in Halo 3 doesn't mean Bungie would completely scrap the weapon. And the introduction of a new anti-vehicle weapon doesn't eliminate the possibility of the Laser returning. The DMR and Needle Carbine both function differently but have the same fundamental purpose yet are both in Reach, who's to say the Laser and Covenant Launcher can't function differently and both have the same fundamental purpose?[/quote] You gave me hope again =D
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I'd love to see your rebuttal to my argument on page 7 Hybelos.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] SoonToBeNinja [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] privet caboose The Laser completely destroyed vehicular combat in Halo 3, so I'd be pretty damn happy if it was gone. Halo 3 had; -Laser -Rockets -Missile pod =Power Drainer -Tripmine -Grenades -Human turret -Plasma Turret -Brute shot -PLASMA PISTOL. All anti-vehicle weapons. Halo 2 had; -Homing Rockets -Brute Shot -Grenades Halo CE Had; -Rockets -Grenades For Reach, we've seen; -Rockets -Grenade Launcher -Plasma Grenade Launcher -grenades Already we've got enough anti-vehicle weapons. The laser ruined vehicles, and rendered them useless. On a map like Valhalla, the entire map was turned into infantry map rather than a vehicle map. That's the main reason why Valhalla fails as a spiritual successor to Coagulation. Coag focused on vehicles, and Valhalla focuses on the Laser. [/quote] good post but obvious fail here. Valhalla is a spiritual sucessor of [b]blood gulch[/b], of which coag is also. Go play halo 1 for while, maybe a few lan matches and you'll see why there's a big difference. I do agreee though that Valhalla does fail as a successor of BG because in all honesty it was based on vehicular gameplay and Bungie put every anti-vehicle weapon on the the map that was supposed to focus on vehicle gameplay the most. On topic I would like to see the the splazer gone, although it did do one thing correct in that it severely hindered cqc use. I think 3-5 anti-vehicle weapons is more than enough. And the splazer takes little to no nessecary skill at mid-long range. Its just too unbalanced. Each base spawns with the same vehicles for a reason. but the reason becomes pointless and the gameplay unblanced as soon as you add a weapon that can take out as many as 5 vehicles. each only needing a single shot. it's awesome but too much.[/quote] I'll have to refute you on this. Further away the target, the harder it is to hit. MUCH HARDER. One, you have to *slightly* lead the target and account for the *slight* jump and pause the laser gives when fired. It's barely there, but enough to throw off a shot. The reticule doesn't help much either. It's a -blam!- to aim that thing accurately at a distance. Possible with practice, but hard. Finally,90% of the time, when I see people get killed by a laser, it is because A.) They attempt to rush/splatter the laser man B.) Are not keeping a track of their surrounding C.) Flying, in the open, up high, with a Banshee, when the laserman has a clear shot. THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR SHEER STUPIDITY
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Sad face =[ R.I.P Spartan Laser.
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[quote] I don't see how anything can be more OP than the laser. Let's compare: Laser: *it's a one-hit kill. True it fires three shots in one burst, but not all 3 shots have to land to score a vehicle kill. *Unlimited range mostly (3/4 of sandtrap is close enough to infinite no matter how you word it.) *5 shot battery *instant travel time. *Has a red light to alert people a laser is aiming at you but that can be avoided by looking away, charge up, then at the last moment aim at the vehicle. Besides the charge time on the laser is too short for a vehicle to go anywhere. Plasma weapon *Has a charge time like the laser. *shots take time to hit the vehicle (can be avoided). *Probably take multiple hits to kill a fully intact vehicle. *shots home in on vehicles. From the looks of it, I'd say the laser is pretty overpowered. I could play Avalanche, get the laser, camp at our lift and not let any vehicles through the middle, waste all 5 shots on enemy vehicles/infantry and by the time I'm done, the laser has respawned. Low ammo... yea right. But just an analogy to prove my point. You are controlling the hill in Valhalla. A warthog is seen driving from your enemies' base to you. You have two choices: a) Covie Missile pod b) Spartan Laser I think we both know what you're going to choose. Why choose a weapon that takes time to reach a target rather than the other weapon that is just a point and charge light of death that accomplishes the same end result? The Splaser is better than the Covie pod in all areas of anti-vehicle warfare and it even excels at other areas as well. Even Bungie staff (forgot name) said they don't want redundant weapons in this game (i.e. laser out). [/quote] Did you even read my post, or just decided to rush to a uniformed post? *it's a one-hit kill. True it fires three shots in one burst, but not all 3 shots have to land to score a vehicle kill. Wrong, 80 points per beam, so 2 have to hit to kill a person *Unlimited range mostly (3/4 of sandtrap is close enough to infinite no matter how you word it.) Point makes no sense whats so ever *5 shot battery And? Elaborate *instant travel time. Yes, HITSCAN. It's called that for a reason. *Has a red light to alert people a laser is aiming at you but that can be avoided by looking away, charge up, then at the last moment aim at the vehicle. Besides the charge time on the laser is too short for a vehicle to go anywhere. That is an opinion, there for holds no water
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Zerox Z21 The banshee hovers better in ODST (and thus possibly in Reach, hopefully), and I didn't necessarily mean that in so much as easily being able to stay far away enough. Your point about range and skill is valid, though at really long ranges it takes more skill than not, like sniping from very long distances. But in theory, if you had virtually all anti-vehicle weapons excluding the splaser on something like sandtrap, and other vehicles are absent, then it can far too easily avoid attack whilst bombarding enemies. Might make it a bit overpowered. Sounds a little circumstantial, I know, but such situations might arise overly often in its absence. I could be wrong though; I didn't play Halo 2 online and thus have no real experience with the balancing of the banshee in those games. Also, the absence of other vehicles to combat the aerial ones also seems rather unlikely, though this might limit Forge in the small way of that it's virtually impossible to have only aerial vehicles, as infantry will be dominated.[/quote]If the new launcher's lock-on range is close to that if the missile pod or H2 rocket launcher, then I don't think you have anything to worry about. At any distance beyond that, you're kind of asking for it standing in a big open area with no means if defending yourself. Also remember that Halo Reach will have Armor Abilities, which could go a long way in giving infantry more of a chance against vehicles.
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Thank you Hylebos for making a valid arguement. I read the posts (all three) all the way through, and i regret nothing.
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Balanced vehicle and counter-vehicle gameplay is the core of the Halo experience. The spartan laser significantly shifts this balance towards the counter-vehicle side, thus making the game off balance. OP is right, the Spartan Laser will not return.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] retired17801 -deleted link- there ya go[/quote] Someone didn't read the OP. Protip: edit out that link before you get banned.
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they may be fakes, but they look kinda real but also fake. hopefully some1 can find this out