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#feedback

5/28/2015 1:11:17 AM
9

Destinys RPG issue.

I should preface this that I am mostly talking about the stats and how the effect PvE challenges. Yeah its long, I'm sorry it got so out of hand, TLDR at the bottom. It seems bizarre that a game so entrenched in the gear grind seems to give so little importance to the stats of said gear beyond the equally boring "light" stat. For example, the Defense stat of the game is very much useless, its normalized across all armor and classes and exists only as an extension of the light level damage reductions. There are no armor pieces you take for more survivability despite that stat being listed as a way to improve said survivability so really what point is there in having it other than listing a useless number? Lets look at Strength next, Another fairly useless stat for all but maybe Blade Dancers taking advantage of escape artist, melee is fairly weak in this game the damage is rarely if ever worth the effort. A max str scale reduces melee cooldowns from 60s to 20s but you would be hard pressed to find any player using melee enough to ever see this benefit weighed out. At the hardest content of the game melee can be all but written off entirely, using it pretty much guarantees death as it does a paltry amount compared to any amount of weapon damage that close but leaves you vulnerable to the near 1 shot return hits of any unit. This leaves str as easily the least desirable "stat" of the game as melee is so underpowered its left unused in the vast majority of content. Next lets talk about Discipline. Discipline is used to reduce the cooldown of grenades on the same scale as Str, it goes from a default 60s to 20s at 100% reduction. Discipline fairs a bit better than Str but not by much, its benefits are that they are usable at range and are usually large aoes allowing for damage comparable to large heavy weapon bursts if landed correctly. They also can come with some fairly nice perks like the Titan flashbang or the Warlock heal when specced for it which are generally very valuable in certain situations. For most specs however they are fairly inconsequential benefits, the most popular PvE specs for example being Defender/Sun Seeker/Gunslinger all have no real benefits tied to their grenades beyond damage, damage largely irrelevant in most situations. And then there was Intellect. As with Discipline and Strength, Intellect is a passive stat used to simply reduce another cooldown, the particular cooldown happens to be your class super. At 100% effect it reduces your default super cooldown from 5 minutes 30 seconds to 3 minutes 55 seconds for a total of 1:35 shaved off your cooldown. Intellect also provides you with TWICE the amount of super energy per skill at max effect. Intellect is by far the most valuable stat of the 3 although it doesnt make it any less boring, another CD reduction with no real affect on the ability itself. Again the benefit of this stat also hinges on the fact that your build takes advantage of your supers often enough to enjoy the cd reduction. Because of no real effect on the actual supers themselves the stat does not allow them to scale, due to the inability to scale many of the abilities get left behind, fist of havoc for example barely harms enemies at max level and only leaves the Titan vulnerable to being killed near enemies who easily survived his super. Finally, Light. Easily one of the most boring stats in a video game, this is essentially a gear check stat similar to an ilevel in other RPGs. It has no real effect on the game beyond what reductions enemies have when facing you and nothing else. Because of Destiny's scaling system it doesnt even effect the rest of the game beyond 3 different stat states which are lower than, even with, higher than. The conclusion really is that the stat portion of gear is incredibly boring and could outright be ignored with very little change in playstyle, fairly counter to the idea of stats in the first place. Lets talk about perks now. Destiny actually does a decent job of this with Weapons, they are numerous and a lot of them can really change the feel and playstyle of a gun loadout. Black Hammer is one of the more unique weapons in the game, a non exotic that can completely alter the way you play compared to other snipers so long as you have the skill to wield it. Another favorite is Fatebringer, arc damage, firefly, outlaw, these perks make the gun handle significantly different compared to most other guns and they help alter the gameplay from weapon to weapon. Then there is Armor. We'll start with Helmet perks, increased attack speed, increased grenade throw distance, increased super energy from PvE kills (intellect in disguise), increased grenade/super/melee energy from melee/grenade, then there are a few benefits tied to orb pickup like health from pickup or melee/grenade energy from pickup. This issue here being again that all these perks tie back into CD reductions for abilities largely unused and helmets are by far the most diverse in terms of armor perks which is almost sad to say. Next up is Gauntlets, there are really only 2 different perks packs here, increased reload speed, and then 4 of the same perks you got on Helmets already (melee/grenade energy, grenade distance/melee speed). Something worth mentioning is that two perks on gloves (grenade distance/attack speed) do not stack with the same helmet perks at all leaving many stat combos redundant going from doing "next to nothing" to doing simply nothing. Reload speed is the only thing worth looking at here, in combination with other weapons this can significantly increase reload speed and remedy some weapons biggest deficiency. I'm combining the last two simply because they share the exact same perks, Chest and Boots simply come with more max ammo additions, outside of Heavy these stats can be almost completely written off as design of the game works to never have you go empty and when you do it simply gives you more automatically. Overall these Armor perks offer nothing in terms of gameplay alterations, excluding reload speed on gauntlets. Lastly we are gonna tackle exotic perks/raid perks, Exotics range from near no effect to minor changes. Compare these to weapon exotics and you see just how little effect they have. Red Death heals you each and everytime you land a killing blow with it, it also dramatically speeds up reload speed and suffers less recoil when the user is under fire. Then we have Young Ahamkaras spine, its perk is simply that tripmine grenades last longer when placed. Thats it. Knucklehead Radar allows you to keep your radar when using ADS with primaries only, many primaries already come with this perk leaving it entirely redundant. Crest of Alpha Lupi, you resurrect teammates faster and spawn more orbs. I trust you see the pattern. And then there are raid perks, largely these perks are useless additions to armor for raids you already completed. Increased damage against Oversoul? More orbs from killing hive a specific way essentially tying back in just more CD reductions, one of if not the weakest reload perk. These perks offer additional convenience to raid mechanics you already beat without the assistance of. Its similar to how Destiny gives you the Stranger Rifle at the end of the game where the majority of players have already advanced past the part of it being relevant and helpful. The new raid items perks work only in the raid effectively making something you already completed easier and nothing else, they also tie right back into CD reduction yet again. Now I'm not one to poke holes without offering some kind of solution, Destiny need only look at its own weapon designs for a bit of inspiration for a Armor stat overhaul. Something like Boot perks that increase player speed or jumping height based on headshots, armor that that provides your shield with different resistance similar to enemies (aka change your shield to solar making you mitigate Arc/Void better), Helmets that reduce sniper shots at the cost of radar range. Armor with less mitigation but maybe a much faster recharging shield. Instead of something like Strength reducing melee cooldowns it instead causes your melee to hit much harder and give you more resistance to all damage. Intellect could give you increased elemental damage and better elemental damage reduction but leave you vulnerable to kinetic or melee damage. You get the point I trust. [b]TLDR Destiny has a serious lack of RPG focus in regards to its armor stats/perks, it leaves Destiny's RPG depth puddle deep and gives zero purpose to a large portion of its grind/gear choices.[/b]
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  • Edited by ToughGuy051: 5/28/2015 9:38:05 PM
    Ive said this before. Allowing us to bring our gear into pvp and and balancing it all leads to boring stats and perks. Pvp and Pve gear should be seperate. You cant have anything fun and wild do to this balancing. Imagine thunderlord causing chain lighting amonst enemies. How cool would that be! But it would be OP in multiplayer. They also made a bad decision with light. Making every other gear stat mute due to a need for max level. I believe destiny is a fun game. Its a good shooter. Just alot of the design decisions are bad. They made alot of noob rpg mistakes.

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  • I was myself while doing the 32 PoE lamenting at how pointless melee is. I feel there are maybe 3-4 cases of value: Storm Fist, Flame shield, Energy Drain, Force Barrier (sometimes?), Escape artist, (Weird middle ground of) Throwing knives. Now I mention those few cases but lets start with the few that fall out. Force Barrier only works on kill, granted if you don't kill it isn't used, but hey that melee trade that left them with a sliver of health, and no shield, just got you killed. No timer, and no damage reduction. Granted with a super restrictive limiting build you can give yourself an overshield for a good amount of time, but to the failing of pretty much every other team based facet. With energy drain you run into a weird dilemma again, use the on hit, which is good for a duration buff or essentially waste the "bonus" effect of your melee any number of times. Storm fist is a bit of a weird one, with transfusion and the inclusion of shoulder charge, which already does more damage, you can get it outside of a melee "skill". Overload seems to be the most useful as it gives you a second shot at the higher damage melee attack kill, but it again doesn't amount to much. Discharge is kind of nifty, but does minimal damage to all but the weakest enemy. Throwing knives are a one off and pretty nifty, but most of the time they can go off when you don't want them, and fail to do so when you need them. Melee in this game is a joke, a sham, and even a lie. In PVE in all but the rarest of cases it always ends in a hit trade. This is ridiculous. Sure punch a shield be rewarded with a punch back, but how is it that every single enemy we face is trained in the art of cross counters? If there were a system in place that shields reduced the melee damage, then you could break their shield and then either stagger their ass or one shot them. I mean the Titan's armor is supposedly heavy enough to break stone just by dropping it, and punching enemies is like a freight train hitting you, but why does it feel like I might as well be hitting them with a pillow? To be honest if the melee cooldown was increased but became an almost always one shot kill, for your special melee, against everything, but bosses, the system might work better. Maybe give or take with the whole shield thing. As in it doesn't one shot if the enemy has a shield. Side note. Every boss being able to melee blast as an action cancel regardless of stagger? That is stupid. Have them melee you back, repulse you, or put up a shield if you come into melee range, but just blast damage as a free action is lazy and stupid. I would like to put one more point on the table. They said that Destiny was supposed to be a bit more lethal than Halo and it was expected to play faster, at least in PVP, but why did you have to make PVE feel like a long slog up a muddy hill.

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    • I agree with most all of your post. The only thing I disagree with is I actually use melee in PvE as sunsinger with the shield trait when my health is low, usually when I'm being mobbed by 50 enemies. I use melee, get a shield, then run away until my health recovers. It gives me maybe 5 extra seconds to play with. Granted it only works if there is an enemy in close enough range but not enough so I have room to escape.

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      • Well... we're screwed.

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      • Great post. I had a feeling the light levels and damage mitigation would cause some issues when I saw footage after the alpha. Well hope they can figure out the issues in the sequels.

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      • Edited by DRG JupiterIvan: 5/28/2015 8:28:31 AM
        This has got to be one of the most well written and comprehensive posts in this feedback forum. Bravo... *tips non existent hat*

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      • this analysis is very well written and civilized, but its inaccurate. you fail to provide any evidence for the uselessness of these perks. There was a point where i didnt understand much about the perk system and how stats worked. by watching streamers and experimenting i learned that they can make sizable difference in performance. Like watch people who dont have access to these perks and stats you call redundant and compare their performance to those who understand the importance of certain perks. Are certain exotic perks like knuckle head radar useless, yes. but that is what we think, fact of the matter is that it could mesh with someone else's playstyle perfectly. I also dont know whether you are using this analysis to speak about pve or pvp because i could maybe kind of see these rolls not mattering as much in pve but for pvp they could be a game changer. I do however agree with you about light level and if you notice in their recent expansion, bungie has made it really easy to reach max light because they too realize that this kind of stat should not have a big effect on gameplay. If you would like examples specifically tailored to what you call useless you can ask me but if i were you i would compare pve and pvp performances of those who dont have access to these perks or have little knowledge of how these stats mesh together to those who utilize these stats to increase performance drastically

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        • Like the post and it's detail. I agree with your main point. Which is that destiny isn't really an rpg?

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          • Pve i would agree. I mean lock and titians can get buffs from mellee so i would not call str garbage all together, but pvp i will say have low cds is pretty useful...same with reload speed and all that.

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