Keepin it simple: - buff AR's to pre-1.11 but keep a slight damage/range drop off. - increase acquired sniper ammo by 25% - reduce Heavy Ammo spawn to 1x/match - best suggestion for Thorn= No stacking Dots I think you should not be able to add a thorn Dot before the first Dot is done ticking. balance

Hand cannons do not need to be nerfed. They are supposed to be 2-3 shot kills because the rof is so slow. If someone is good at aiming and can get 2 headshots in a row then why fault them for it because you prefer to spray and pray with an auto rifle

[quote]I'd like to start a conversation amongst people who are regular PvPers as to the current state of weapon balancing. This isn't to say non-PvP players can't offer thoughts, but I really want to hear from the people who spend a lot of time in the Crucible and have used all the weapon classes in it. My overall take on balancing can be found here https://www.bungie.net/en/Forum/Post/114553028/0/0 So after getting in and playing quite a few matches last night, my initial impression of 1.1.2 is that I didn't really notice the reduction in special ammo. Now I'll qualify that by saying that I mostly use primaries and switch to a Fusion Rifle in close combat situations. Someone using strictly special weapons may find their play more affected. I do know some snipers have commented it's worse for them. Overall I think that, for average use, the effects are minimal which surprised me. Now going beyond the special ammo change and looking at overall weapon balance in 1.1.2, here's my thoughts. 1) ARs should get some (if not all) of their 2.5% back. The main issue with ARs was effective range and so having damage fall off at range should have been the only fix. 2) Scouts need a slight buff. Nothing to the level Pulse Rifles were buffed, but definitely a nudge up (or slight boost to impact across the board). 3) Hand Cannons are the new Shotgun. By that I mean that they're the controversial flavor of the month for the nerf babies (though Thorn's always been). My take on Hand Cannons is that as a class they're damage output is fine and Thorn's DoT is 100% not OP. My only issue with Hand Cannons is I think they're a little to close to scouts (meaning about even) in terms of effective range. I have no problem with hand cannons 2 shotting me, but I don't think it should happen standing on complete opposite sides of The Anomaly (and halfway down the ramp from B). I don't think they need to be radically brought in, but I do think they're accuracy at that range needs adjusted or a slight damage drop off. 4) Pulse Rifles. I think overall they're in a decent place. I'm not sure they needed quite a 9% buff, but I also don't find them OP at this point. 5) Fusion Rifles. I think they're perfect. I find they're just as effective as pre 1.1.1, but I don't see any of the ultra cheap half a map away kills anymore. 6) Shotguns. I think they're perfect as well. I've never seen the issue personally. They do exactly what they're supposed to- dominate in close quarters and easy to stop at any kind of distance. Radar and walking backwards. Never been hard. 7) Snipers. As far as weapon performance I don't think there's much to say. They're great for campers and annoying for everyone else, but 100% fair. My 2 cents on Final Round (the only real sniper point of contention) is that I'm fine with it. I've always thought if someone was willing to risk emptying all but one round and taking that risk, more power to them. There's enough risk involved to justify the reward. 8&9) Rockets and Machine Guns. Don't know that there is anything that needs said about either. Maybe just give your teammates at least 5 seconds to get to the ammo lol. So that's my take on our current weapon balance. What are your thoughts on where each weapon class sits at the moment? Keep it clean and be nice to PvE players who weigh in. [spoiler]Until they say something like Gjallarhorn is OP. All bets are of then.[/spoiler][/quote] Tbh if they fix things for pvpers they break the game for pvers so this weapon balancing can only be done if they separate pvp and pve that way you unlock your gear separately in pvp than in pve my 2 cents right there

Remove aim assist in crucible.

I really enjoyed Mixing it up with primary and sniping. Now they wrecked the sniping part. I can probably adapt and figure out that it's still good. But my opinion today, is that they made the game WORSE! And thorn... WHy the -blam!- make that Even more powerful with your screen going GREEN!!??? Really Bungie??? REALLY!???

Handcannons need to be addressed--particularly the exotic tiers. Reductions could be made to their range, and that would work. It would, however, have to be significant. Currently, we see crucible saturated with exotic handcannons because of the high effectiveness of these weapons across a myriad of situations. Legendary handcannons are perfect. We shouldn't penalize legendary tiers because of discrepancies with the exotic tier versions. [b]I know you disagree with this, but I think this is how you balance PVP[/b]: Reduce Thorns DoT to prevent two shot capability. Reduce TLW range significantly. Increase Hawkmoon's magazine by 1-3 to dilute the lucky bullets. These weapons would still be used but it would promote weapon diversity in the crucible. Edit 1: Scout rifles don't need impact increased--that wouldn't do anything. If you increase impact too much, you'll make a 4 shot kill scout a 3 shot kill scout. That would be too much of a jump in terms of TTK. Rather, ROF needs to be slightly increased.

My opinion here I just got done the crucible portion of the thorn bounty which people said was impossible because of the new ammo system. Ammo system is fine you shouldn't be able to shotgun and snipe all game. I like the heavy ammo indicator coming up early and the pickup being larger radius. All changes to ammo are fine. Hand Cannons I agree are the new shotguns everyone uses them and they're becoming a slight issue but not enough to warrant a nerf. Pulse rifles are fine I think the red death was slightly over buffed it can 2 burst you but I digress it does take some skill to pull this off. Special weapons. Snipers rule the pack now with the recent nerfs to shotguns and fusion rifles. This is ok since they were an issue to start and snipers have always been exactly what they are. Heavy weapons. I do believe rockets are slightly overused truth to be specific the proxy detonation perk needs to be adjusted slightly. Machine guns are machine guns they do what they're made to do. Auto rifles are near useless. I saw less than 4 in the 4 or 5 hours I played last night which is insane. They need a buff. Not so big they're the only thing people use just make them usable again. My take on the current standing of PvP.

The current Meta: HCs, HCs and HCs...

Reply please for a marker. Love this thread and want to have it on hand.

If a crucible is a melting pot, why are they letting the crucible contents spill out of that container? Confine gun changes to PVP. UNLESS THEY ARE TRULY UNBALANCED ACROSS THE BOARD. (Prepatch VEX Mythoclast is the perfect example of this. Its an environment drop who's changes came primarily because of PvP.) I don't PvP at all anymore. I loved it before Crota. Now its complete garbage that gets worse by the minute. Honestly, as proliferated as cheating is, I wouldn't be surprised at all if they just turned off PvP completely for a month or so. Don't say it won't or can't happen... That is my take overall in regards to ALL gun changes. [b][i][u]Imo, the gun isn't the problem.[/u][/i][/b]

Dirty Dan's take on weapon balancing: •Auto rifles need that "2.5% damage " back •Scout rifles need an actual 2.5% damage buff along with a slight increase in RoF •Thorn is not OP, for the argument listed below [spoiler]Let's consider some points shall we •The Thorn bounty is the hardest exotic bounty in the game. It requires the most time and skill out of the exotic bounties. Therefore, it is only for that theI don't think Thorn is OP. Let me make that clear. I believe the only thing left to balance the crucible is buffing the auto rifles. That's it. The best weapon be rewarded for the hardest task. •Red Death can kill a guardian at full health with two pulls of the trigger, just like Thorn. There's a counter. •The Last Word does 77 damage I think per headshot and there's a glitch where it can possible do around 111. That means the last word can two shot you and with the rate of fire being twice as fast as Thorn's, it's an easy counter. •Two [b][i][u]precision[/u][/i][/b] shots can kill someone when using Thorn. Let me ask you, doesn't a steady hand need to be rewarded when playing the crucible? If you allow a Thorn user to land two headshots on you, then you've been out played. You could have killed him first, dodged the bullets, or simply avoided the encounter. To blame your death on the gun is irresponsible, and frankly childish. Blaming your lack of skill on the opponents weapon. And yes you can say "Look at my KD! I have skill!" But if you lack the competence to interject one of those three methods, you have no skill. •If you want to get technical, it takes three headshots to kill someone with Thorn. Considering the burn will kill you with two headshots, allow about 3 seconds for the opponent to get off a couple of rounds at you. Considering the Thorn user didn't ambush you, you should be able to kill him before the burn kills you. Again, considering you have skill. •Thorn was meant to be a long to mid range weapon, rivaling that of some scout rifles. To nerf the range of Thorn would render the weapon useless, because that's where it was intended to excel. •Nerfing Thorn's signature perk would reduce the weapon down to a standard handcannon. Making it not worth the exotic slot. •Thorn isn't an RNG drop. You are welcomed to pick one up yourself since it's so "overpowered" in your eyes. If I were you, I'd pick one up instead of whining about it like a Christmas noob. •No land beyond, universal remote, three little words, red death and Hawkmoon can all kill you in two shots or less. And if you take in the glitch, so would the last word. So to say there isn't s counter for the weapon would be idiotic to say the least since I counted 6 weapons off of the top of my head that kills just as fast. •If you are going to nerf Thorn because of it two shoting people, by fairness, you should nerf the weapons mentioned in the previous bullet point. In conclusion, stop putting your head in the way of the poison daggers. Guaranteed 100% foolproof solution to your problem.[/spoiler] •The Last Word needs no nerf what so ever. The range balanced the damage and the mag size balances it's rate of fire. •Red Death is fine •Mida multi tool, SUROS, Hardlight and Nechrocasm needs a buff desperately. •[b][i][u]The timer for ammo needs to be removed.[/u][/i][/b] •Supers should regenerate a tad bit slower for PvP to reduce the amount of one shot kills. This one isn't a problem, per say, just a suggestion that I think would make the crucible a better place. This change would be PvP only. •Remove adding points for reviving dead teammates after a suicide in skirmish and salvage. •Have some dedicated servers. •Make fusion rifles prevalent again. As an added note I want to say this: Don't blame a gun for your death. It is almost entirely your fault and to blame a weapon is irresponsible and childish. Thanks for reading.

hey PvP, stop ruining the game for us PvE players, all u do is whine about everything, but Bungie basically hands u everything u guys want on a silver platter. if u want PvP, go play CoD or Battlefield and stop -blam!-ing up the game for the rest of the 90% of us. stupid, annoying cry babies.

Only thing I think, is that if they make changes, it should only affect pvp. Not pve.

Let me preface by saying that I don't PvP unless I need to for an exotic bounty or there is a decent Iron Banner weapon available, so these are the observations of an outsider looking in. To my mind the main trade-space when selecting a primary weapon is range/safety vs damage/TTK. Unfortunately Destiny doesn't handle this as well as some other games because there seems to be an attitude that range/safety makes the matches too long. This results in map design where every weapon has to function reasonably well in close quarters to be viable, with improved range adding additional versatility. Since mid-to-long range primaries must be competitive in close, close range only weapons gain little from their specialization and feel gimped. But if close range only weapons were significantly superior up close, players could take advantage of the map design and drastically reduce the viability of longer range alternatives. The balancing issue is not simply a matter of numbers, but also a matter of how player strategy changes if weapon X is better than Y, or vice versa. Finally, on the issue of SUROS Regime, Planet Destiny did a comparison of the pre- and post-nerf versions of the gun and found that the TTK had been increased by one (that's 1, as in the Roman numeral I) single shot. That so many people regard that one shot as the difference between a great weapon that was undeniably overrepresented in Crucible and a weapon that is unusably bad is probably proof that a lot of bad players were being carried by an overpowered weapon, and that the nerf was spot on.

Very refreshing to read a constructive post as opposed to the usual screaming for hand cannons to be nerfed! I agree entirely.

I like you. I agree, I don't believe the special ammo change has been exceptionally game changing, however, I am noticing fewer blink - shotgunners (praises be to the PvP Gods) and fewer consistent camping snipers. While I always relied on my primary predominately, I am finding myself more concientious of my special ammo and adjusting the paths I'm taking on certain maps accordingly and when I'm using it based upon my radar. AR'S need a slight buff, I'd say give them back at least half of what they lost and do it on the same sliding scale they used for the reduction. I agree with the target TTK Bungie has for weapons and if it's done together with the PR adjustment I list further down, they should be equal. Given the recoil associated with Scouts, compared to Hand Cannons, I would agree they need a slight impact boost, or a slight recoil reduction. They can get pretty squirrely if you use them at their max RoF, which is often necessary to get a kill, so either of those solutions would make them more viable contenders. As a Hand Cannon user, I think Hand Cannons in general are fine. Thorn's DoT is fine, it's RoF is fine, I would however like to see its aim assist and/or recoil retuned slightly though (and I do mean slightly). I believe it lacks the skill level learning curve that other Hand Cannons demand from a player. If I move from Hawkmoon to Thorn, I feel like I switched to easier mode. Thorn in the hands of a skilled player is deadly and should be, but it shouldn't be just as deadly in the hands of an unskilled player. I think a small rework on that weapons handling would do the trick. Pulse Rifles need a small decrease in damage consistent with an increase in AR damage to put them on level playing fields. The 9.7% buff was a bit much, perhaps dropping that by 2% or even 1.5% on a sliding scale would do it. If they rebuff AR'S and bring PR's down just a tad, they can still maintain their target TTK preserving both weapon types and our PvP fun. Fusion Rifles, Shotguns, Snipers, LMG'S and RL, I agree 100%. In truth, my new favorite game is making snipers waste and deplete their ammo reserves by bobing and weaving between cover on long range maps while still hitting them with a scout and letting them take risky shots then killing them anyway. Camp that my friend.