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ursprünglich gepostet in: What *is* love?
Bearbeitet von Cozyman Cam: 2/27/2020 12:00:38 AM
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On my commute into work the other morning, I started thinking about the materialist's explanation for love. They explain it as certain chemical reactions occurring in the brain. If this brain chemisty is the cause of love, then it would be possible to fabricate love within an individual. Such fabrication is, by definition, fantastic. Love potions are objects of fantasy fiction. Amusingly, materialists could reasonably believe that such potions can exist. I assume most would initially ridicule the thought, even be offended at such an assertion. I do agree that it is a ridiculous idea, although I don't agree because love potions are fantasy. I agree because brain chemistry is not the cause of love. Love is the cause of the brain chemistry. It is much more sensible to recreate certain sensations and brain activity associated with love than it is to fabricate love. I'm sure most materialists would agree with the previous statement. There are no fantastic potions or magical spells necessary; only biochemical manipulation. The materialist has it backwards. They observe the effect and call it the cause. It seems as though there are a lot of things that are backwards, upside down, flipped. The correct pieces are there, they're just in the wrong order. Another issue with claiming love to be caused by brain chemistry, and it's possible fabrication, is that love is no longer real. It is a fiction. Such love is, of necessity, very fιckle, always conditional. It is not at all as Paul describes in 1 Corinthians 13: [quote]"If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing. Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love."[/quote] For the materialist, this chapter is a lie. It must be. Love is as fιckle as brain chemistry, and just as easily manipulated. It can even be fabricated. Unconditional love is a fantasy. Why? How can this be reconciled as a spouse, as a parent, as a child, as a sibling, as a friend? I am incapable of doing so. For myself, it is the same as trying to reconcile 1+1=2 and 1+1=3 while 2≠3. It cannot be done.
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  • All sorts of drugs can induce all sorts of different emotions and feelings in people by acting on the chemistry in the brain - from fear, happiness, depression, ecstasy etc. So presumably a “love potion” could potentially be created. In fact people who take the drug ecstasy often report feelings of love as one of the outcomes of the drug. I can’t see how anyone could deny that emotions are a byproduct of neurological processes in the brain. If feelings and emotions [i]weren’t[/i] produced by chemistry in the brain then how could certain stimuli (like drugs) produce certain emotional responses? If they were produced somewhere separate from the body (in the “soul” for example) then anything done physically to the body shouldn’t effect emotions at all. This doesn’t happen though - which suggests that emotions [u]are[/u] a product of chemistry in the brain.

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  • [quote]If they were produced somewhere separate from the body (in the “soul” for example) then anything done physically to the body shouldn’t effect emotions at all.[/quote]Why?

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  • If emotions were not produced by the physical brain then they should not be effected by things that happen to the physical brain. Brain injuries, drugs, mental illness and electrical stimulation for example should have no effect on emotions or personality if they are produced by the soul.

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  • [quote]If emotions were not produced by the physical brain then they should not be effected by things that happen to the physical brain. Brain injuries, drugs, mental illness and electrical stimulation for example should have no effect on emotions or personality if they are produced by the soul.[/quote]Repeating yourself does not answer why this ought to be the case...

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  • [quote][quote]If emotions were not produced by the physical brain then they should not be effected by things that happen to the physical brain. Brain injuries, drugs, mental illness and electrical stimulation for example should have no effect on emotions or personality if they are produced by the soul.[/quote]Repeating yourself does not answer why this ought to be the case...[/quote] I’m not sure what you’re not seeing. If the soul is not physical and the soul is the source of our personality and emotions then how could changing the chemistry of the brain (through drugs) alter our personality and emotions? The only two options that I’m aware of are: a). The “soul” is a physical thing that exists as a part of the brain that can be effected by physical things like chemistry and physics. b). The soul doesn’t exist and there is only the physical brain. If there is some other option that I’m not seeing maybe you could point it out.

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  • [quote]If there is some other option that I’m not seeing maybe you could point it out.[/quote]The universe is both spiritual and material. If that is true, then they must influence each other. They must interact if they coexist. You are working from a solely material universe. That is why your options are limited.

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  • [quote][quote]If there is some other option that I’m not seeing maybe you could point it out.[/quote]The universe is both spiritual and material. If that is true, then they must influence each other. They must interact if they coexist. You are working from a solely material universe. That is why your options are limited.[/quote] So you are saying that physical things CAN effect the soul? So now you are conceding that a love potion could theoretically be made? If someone has a permanent brain injury that radically alters their personality (which happens) does that also change the personality of the soul? What about people that develop dissociative identity disorder (split personality)? Does the soul also develop multiple personalities? Which personality goes to heaven when the body dies?

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  • [quote]So you are saying that physical things CAN effect the soul?[/quote]Yes, I did not claim otherwise. [quote]So now you are conceding that a love potion could theoretically be made?[/quote]No. Please reread my initial post. I said we can "recreate certain sensations and brain activity associated with love." [quote]If someone has a permanent brain injury that radically alters their personality (which happens) does that also change the personality of the soul? What about people that develop dissociative identity disorder (split personality)? Does the soul also develop multiple personalities? Which personality goes to heaven when the body dies?[/quote]I do not know. I just know that if the universe is both material and spiritual they must interact. If they do not, then universe is as you believe it to be, solely material.

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  • What does it mean that the universe is spiritual? I think we have a colloquial understanding but what does it really mean? Material can be explained in terms of matter and energy, for instance, and can be demonstrated to exist.

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  • Bearbeitet von Cozyman Cam: 2/29/2020 10:48:38 PM
    [quote]What does it mean that the universe is spiritual? I think we have a colloquial understanding but what does it really mean?[/quote]I would say that it means there is a purposeful will behind it. Will comes from the spirit. [quote]Material can be explained in terms of matter and energy, for instance, and can be demonstrated to exist.[/quote]Yes. Why must we limit reality to be solely what is demonstrable? We know some things have not always been demonstrable. Viruses, bacteria, maggots coming from fly eggs, etc. were at one time incredible. Were they not reality until they were demonstrated or were they reality all along?

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  • How can we determine/conclude that there is a purposeful will behind all this?

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  • [quote]How can we determine/conclude that there is a purposeful will behind all this?[/quote]What means is there if the scientific method is insufficient for the task? I think that is where the Christian virtue of faith comes into play. Faith is believing the incredible. The incredible is that which we cannot prove or demonstrate.

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  • Why would you believe in anything that you can’t prove or demonstrate?

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  • Bearbeitet von Cozyman Cam: 3/1/2020 2:00:10 AM
    [quote]Why would you believe in anything that you can’t prove or demonstrate?[/quote]Well, when was the atom first thought to exist and when was it first demonstrated to exist? There are numerous examples of this. Those who thought something believed it enough to prove and demonstrate it to be true. Some examples only took a few years and others took centuries. Were they wrong to believe it before it could be demonstrated? Regardless of whether or not atoms had been demonstrated and proven to exist, they always existed. They were always reality. I consider truth and reality to be absolute. If it is limited to what can be proven or demonstrated, then it is subjective. It's not absolute. It is dependent upon our ability to rationalize it, demonstrate it, percieve it, explain it, prove it, etc. Truth and reality are then fabricated in our minds rather than outside and independent of us.

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  • Are you saying that love is not the product of one's brain? Physical components such as neurochemicals clearly have an effect on all sorts of feelings and emotions. And sadly, so does the deterioration of one's brain (as I unfortunately witnessed with both of my grandfathers).

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  • Bearbeitet von Cozyman Cam: 2/28/2020 10:17:56 PM
    [quote]Are you saying that love is not the product of one's brain?[/quote]Yes, I am. If it were, we could easily end divorce. We just prescribe a pill and, ta-da, the spouses will love each other again. We could easily end any conflict. Again, prescribe a pill and, like magic, everyone will love their neighbor and enemy. No more wars, no more murder, and no more cruelty. All are products of the brain's activity. Just swallow this [i]love potion[/i], pill, and everything is hunky dory. It's an absurd idea that only exists in our fantastic imaginations. [quote]Physical components such as neurochemicals clearly have an effect on all sorts of feelings and emotions. And sadly, so does the deterioration of one's brain (as I unfortunately witnessed with both of my grandfathers).[/quote]I do not deny that they have an affect. I deny that they are the feelings and emotions.

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  • So you’re saying that because we don’t have this hypothetical pill, that this means that love doesn’t exist as a product of the brain?

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  • I suppose you believe we can revive the long dead by own efforts. It only requires restarting all of the biological processes that have long since ceased. Just perform a blood transfusion to replace the coagulated blood in the circulatory system, attach some electrodes to the heart and brain, introduce the biochemical compounds to the brain to reactivate its biochemistry, use antibiotics to kill off microbial decomposers, attach an apparatus to simulate breathing, use whatever non-feasable technology is required to restart the digestive system, etc. We have now succeeded in Frankenstein's brilliant feat. Consciousness has been revived and your lost loved one is now back again, just as they were before they died, possibly even better. Nah, that's far too fantastic than any religious belief. Any miracle is more in tune with reality than that. We are not gods. Nietzsche's superman is no man at all.

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  • Cmon dude, I was actually serious about your ideas before you went Frankenstein-mode. Can you give another, this time serious, reply to mine?

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  • That was a serious reply. It's the same concept applied to another scenario. If you believe that Frankenstein scenario is ridiculous while the [i]magic[/i] pill is not, then you are attempting to say that 1+1=2 and 1+1=3 while 2≠3. It is not true. 1+1 cannot be both 2 and 3 while 2 and 3 are also not equal.

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  • Sorry, I read “Frankenstein” and immediately assumed you were being silly. If you could un-decompose one’s neurons back into their original state, then in theory I suppose you could make it work. Why wouldn’t it? I doubt we’ll ever have the technology to reverse that kind of entropy, but fair enough for the thought experiment.

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  • Bearbeitet von LZ2001: 2/27/2020 1:52:44 AM
    Double post

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  • Bearbeitet von LZ2001: 2/27/2020 1:53:02 AM
    Son of a...

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