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Bearbeitet von KaptainWilly: 7/16/2019 12:53:39 PM
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The Menagerie is Fine, and Here's Why (Feel Free to Change My Mind!)

Hey everyone, Time for another post! I'm taking a controversial stance here, but feel that this needs to be said. I actually wrote this as a reply to another forum post, and wanted to make it more widely viewable. The original poster was arguing that Bungie took all of the fun out of Menagerie, and killed the mode. A lot of recent posts have conveyed this, saying its no longer "fun" to play Menagerie, and it ruins the experience for casuals while only catering to hardcores. This was my reply: I understand your frustration, I really do. I want to pose a question to you though, because I think it'll help you understand the issue here. Lets take two players: a casual, 10 hour a week guy, and pair him with a "hardcore" that we'll say plays 40 hours a week. What your asking is for Bungie to make things more attainable for the 10 hour guy, and again, I understand why you say that. However, if Bungie builds everything so its attainable easily for the 10 hour a week guy, what is the 40 hour player going to do with their time? There will be nothing left to chase, no goals to work towards, and this will lead to a decrease in playing. You're saying Menagerie isn't worth doing because your chances of a god-roll are low, right? There's one question that nobody arguing from your side has been able to answer: will Menagerie be worth it [i]after[/i] you get that gear? From all of these posts, it seems that people didn't care about the activity itself, but the massive piles of loot they could earn. If the player gets their god-rolls in 10 hours of play, then what would keep them playing? You've already said that with no worthwhile rewards, the mode isn't worth doing, which causes your argument to collapse on itself. If you get all of those rewards right away, then there [i]still won't be any worthwhile rewards[/i], so using your logic, the mode isn't worth doing. That's the root issue with the arguments against this patch--the "fun" being described isn't based on the actual activity, but on the piles of "stuff" people can get from it. Nothing will change that makes it more playable after you get good rolls, and in the long run casuals won't play any [i]more[/i] because of it, so they will cater to the hardcore players that are more willing to spend time and money on their game. This is my take, and its an opinion! However, I believe the logic is sound--I've said similar things on multiple posts, but to this point there hasn't been a player who can answer either of the questions I posed. I am [b]not[/b] saying this with the intent of insulting anyone, and do not want any player to feel attacked. What I [b]do[/b] want is for everyone to enjoy the game for what it has to offer! Anyone who has followed my posts over the months knows that I have not had an easy time with RNG, but learned that loot is only part of the game, and there are so many ways to have fun outside of getting a good drop. I feel like the community would be much happier if we focused on what we do have instead of what we don't. [b][u]***EDIT***[/u][/b] As expected, this post was downvoted to 0, but I think that's cuz a lot of players are missing my point. I get it, everyone is fired up, and wants piles of loot (I wouldn't say no to tons of loot either, mind you). This post is about The Menagerie [i]as an activity[/i], not its loot. I'm basically saying that everyone is throwing away a great activity because they don't get heaps of gear each time they run it, which is a sad mindset to have (especially after the initial reception of Menagerie by the community which was AWESOME). I wanted to add this as well: In my original post, I asked two questions that hadn't been answered (and still haven't been). I'm placing them here, along with a couple more...if you want to change my mind, then answering these in a way that both supports your case [i]and[/i] is logically consistent with your argument is the key :D 1.) If Bungie builds everything so its attainable easily for the 10-hour-a-week-guy (casual player), what is the 40-hour player (hardcore) going to do with their time? *2.) Will Menagerie be worth it [i]after[/i] you get the gear that you want? If players won't play the activity as it stand because it "doesn't offer worthwhile rewards", and the player gets their god-rolls in 10 hours of play, then what would keep them playing The Menagerie, given that there are no more worthwhile rewards to earn? *This is the big question that needs answering. 3.) Menagerie is the focal point of the Season of Opulence--its the big new game mode that was given to us as the main activity of the season, similar to Forges in Black Armory, or Reckoning/Gambit Prime in Joker's Wild. Why is it a problem if casual players need to spend 6-8 weeks or so grinding Menagerie to get the rolls they want, given that the content is supposed to last a season? Why do players need all their god-rolls right away? 4.) What is wrong with Bungie patching the exploit, after giving us a fair warning and 5 weeks to farm it?

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  • Bearbeitet von TJM99: 7/16/2019 6:30:46 PM
    Was the exploit "wrong"? Yes. However, the best middle ground that's come up is rewarding a chest for each "flawless" encounter You'd get 3-4 if you played better. 2 from perfect encounters 1 from boss kill And I think meeting the boss triumph condition should give another, sorta Then there's the lack of reason for Heroic, which the suggestion of more in there lies. Bungie should have patched it right away if they didn't want it to become a 'thing', but they didn't. Now the player intentionality behind it is based in several drops since getting what you want is low chance anyway, getting more bang for your buck. Imagine if they fixed Riven today, how many people are even going to run that now? Can guarantee a lot less. They gotta meet halfway here, more loot that has to be earned through performance fits perfectly, it worked with the Revelry.

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  • The Black Armory forges are more rewarding -Guaranteed weapon -Curated weapon can also drop -One of the two exotics can drop le monraque and jotunn can drop -Argumented weapon bounties can be completed and guarantee weapons -Random reprised y1 weapons can drop -Guaranteed armor drop -Powerful Gear rewards Black Armory Forges are more rewarding then menagerie [spoiler]Change my mind[/spoiler]

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    2 Antworten
    • Well written and well sad. I completely disagree with people saying Menagerie is dead. I've played 4-5 runs this past week, no problem with match making, was able to get some power drops and have a good time. But I do agree that the activity, isn't nearly as farm able now. But that isn't a knock on menagerie, that applies to the game in general. No other activity offers as much replay variety and such a consistent farm. Farming a nightfall for a drop takes about the same amount of time, and there is no guarantee to the drop. Black Armory forges almost take longer, with all the hopping around prep work and they can't guarantee armor or masterwork stats. I hope that Bungie takes the principles of menagerie and applies them more moving forward.

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      • Well the main body of the argument is that getting that God roll is incredibly rare Like when mtashed farmed for his waking vigil it took him 130 tries to get his ideal roll It's taken me nearly 100 for my austringer and I still haven't gotten it It's the rarity in the God rolls and that's what made it special There were so many good guns in the loot pool that 95% of the community didn't have all of them (let alone God rolls)

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        • Yea, people complaining were enjoying the extrinsic rewards. But even with the glitch fixed, managerie is still the most rewarding activity as far as loot is concerned. The issue is just that people became habituated with crazy amounts of loot in a short time period and the one drop they get now pales in comparison.

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        • Definitely a TL;DR post... but the menagerie is fun with or without the chest exploit...I like blowing stuff up.

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        • 1. Did the 40 hr a week guy pay more money than the 10hr a week guy? Nope. How many 10 hr a week guys are there vs 40hr a week guys? I'd argue there are a lot more 10 hr a week guys. Why should you cater completely to the hardcore group they have literally proven they will play no matter what you do and its not creating any more revenue. 2. It's up to Bungie to add enough loot for us to chase. Just because you have a god roll on one gun doesn't mean there aren't others to pursue. That's not counting getting armor with perks you actually want. I'd argue its their job to make everything enticing. 3. The way it currently is makes it not worth it to bother with 95% of the loot available. Be real outside of 1 or 2 guns who cares about the rest? The way it was made you willing to chase any and everything. I will admit that I think the answer lies in the middle. It was too much loot to start with and now its too little loot. 4. They handled their announcement fine I don't think anyone can logically argue that. That doesn't mean I have to agree with the decision. ***This is a looter shooter. This game type requires it to rain loot. There are 5 armor pieces and 3 weapons. That is 8 pieces of gear that I could create a build with. I'm not going to even bother with armor in it's current state and once I get 3 weapons why should I care about the rest. Catering to the 40 hr a week is too extreme a pendulum swing. Somewhere in the middle for both groups is an answer.

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        • I think the problem is alot of ppl quit after CoO, came back and dont have the funds. That's my predicament at the moment, but it's alright I'll manage eventually I guess.

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        • I think your logic here is a bit off. [quote]What your asking is for Bungie to make things more attainable for the 10 hour guy, and again, I understand why you say that.[/quote] Not really. In nearly every post that compares "hardcore" and "casual" players, what people are really asking for is return on time invested. THAT is what keeps both types of players playing. Being rewarded appropriately for the time put into a given activity. Consider that the 40hr a week guy is going to get more loot regardless. They will, by virtue of playing more, get more/better rewards for the amount of time they invest. The 10hr a week guy will never see a portion of the content. And overall, the likelihood of them farming up the perfect rolls on the gear they get is limited. And that, in and of itself is how things should be. More time, greater reward. But the base reward, needs to match the time invested. For ALL players. So the complaint is not one of making something "easier". The complaint is one of making things rewarding. And in this case, SOME players don't feel that the rewards match the time it takes to complete the activity. This is a common practice with Bungie. They make a change to add "impact", based on how easy it is for the "hardcore" people farm a given activity. Problem is that they are basing these things on players who will make the "impact" trivial with their ability to farm endlessly. For the average player WAY too many activities FEEL unrewarding. That is a design problem, not a player problem.

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          • Let me first say this, The Menagerie glitch was intentionally put there by Bungie. It boosted players numbers with all the loot you could get from it. As with the Enhancement core glitch proved and with Anthem's on off again loot drop problems showed that players would be willing to play a game for the increase in loot drops. After the failure that was The Reckoning, players would be less likely to run the Menagerie if only 1 drop of loot was the case. For the 3 weeks or so Menagerie glitch was available players have running it just for 5-10 drops they could get. After the fix, player numbers I am sure have tailed off. Now, everyone keeps talking about the weapons in the Menagerie. Everyone forgets about the armor. Since Armor can drop with so many different roles, that getting 1 drop per run to find that roll you want is a fool's errand. Players who were looking for certain weapon rolls still didnt get them due to too much RNG in the drops. Try running it for that Enhanced perk on armor, good luck, RNG is not on your side. So now that Menagerie drops 1 piece of loot, and there is sooo much RNG on the types of rolls you want on weapons and armor, the Menagerie is no longer a good way of getting loot with the rolls you want. The glitch provided players with alot of loot but it also gave every player to get that certain roll on a piece of armor or weapon you wanted. Now that is no longer the case. Armor runs are pointless and weapons, yea, you might get a decent roll but not that perfect one anymore. All Bungie is proving that they are stingy when it comes to loot drops. Players who 40 hours a week doing Menagerie have stopped playing it. So those players that play 10 hours a week have longer wait times and arent playing with the hardcore anymore, those guys moved on. Samething happened with EP, the hardcore farmed what they wanted then moved on and left those 10 hour a week players on their own. The Glitch needed a fix, but it should have been 2 drops if you complete a run, 3 if you complete each sector, and 4 to 5 drops on heroic. Or the timer should have been taken down to 150-200 seconds. The timer is still at 300 secs, lol, so players can find scannables, like any playets are actually doing that.

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            • Anytime Bungie sees players having fun, Bungie takes it away. Menagerie has joined the ranks of Zero Hour, Rekoning 2&3, Gambit Prime and Black Armory. “How much time can the player stay DEAD?”””

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              • The guy playing 40 hours a week should probably take a break or play other games, its not a casuals fault that certain players are obsessed with destiny and cant drop their remotes and get some sun. Sure some hardcore players play destiny to get paid because they stream but we have so many different games out there that they can expand and play other games. If that one person unlocks everything in one week then thats a bungie issue, not a casuals fault. Bungie is fixing that problem by introducing an actual mmo element to the game by adding more mods to armors and possibly weapons in the next expansion. That right there is enough reason to keep playing, penalizing a casual player is not the right call

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              • Bearbeitet von Hawx: 7/16/2019 3:42:25 PM
                1) Hi "hardcore" player here: I would go for titles and raid exotics which, you guessed it, I currently am doing. I am very close to Shadow and only need like 4 more triumphs all of which are from Menagerie 2) Menagerie was never really worth it (if we ignore the exploit) it was boring after a few runs and blue berries would always find a way to annoy you. Even with a team of friends the mode in itself got boring really quickly. Only fun encounters in Menagerie to me are: -Gauntlet cuz you can kill your friends -The 3 bosses cuz they are ok fights Everything else in Menagerie is goddamn annoying or just boring or both 3) No "casual player" will stick to an activity that earns you way too little for the time invested for 3-4 weeks. Players play games especially games like Destiny for gratification and grinding for something that is totally rng is not gratifying. It's vexing. I am STILL GRINDING FOR ANARCHY. Is it fun? NO, the raid boss is a -blam!- dumb -blam!- that can -blam!- you over for a few minutes through spinning around like a confused gorilla. 4) I dunno if you have heard about a similiar thing happening to a trainwreck called "Anthem". The loot bug actually made playing worthwhile. Just look up reddit posts about it. People were having fun for once. Then BioWare hotfixed it. And guess what? NOBODY ENJOYS SHIT LOOT THAT HAS WAY TOO FEW DROPS AND DEPENDS ON RNG Excuse my anger it is not directed at you or at Bungie. Oh no wait it is directed at Bungie.... Huh...

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              • No

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                • this is why i made the suggestion that menagerie also becomes a somewhat decent glimmer farm, providing 15 k each run. this would help keep it relevant after everyone has their rolls and participation drops off.

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                • Just a question, how many 10 hour players are there and how many 40 hours are there? I think you co do the math there but real question would be effort and reward balance. The reward doesn't justify the effort. I got mostly all I need from the activity so I don't really mind the chance at this point. However, ignoring the majority of the players what brought Bungie here, and I don't think Destiny would become more than it is now

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                  • Bearbeitet von DHawk12: 7/16/2019 8:06:51 AM
                    I play pvp and gambit for fun, idc about the rewards. I only play pve to level up and for loot to use outside pve. 5-6 runs of menagerie was fun but then ONLY the loot mattered to me. Same with the reckoning, it was fun for a few weeks then got incredibly boring but i wanted a full god roll invader set on each character. I got ~100 erentils but i never got the god roll. Id never do 100 runs to try to get that god roll but the possibility of wasting that much time blows me away. A heroic run should guarantee 4 chests and normal should drop 2 (without time ever running out).

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                  • -Once players obtain thier god rolls they wont play menagerie Yeah and? Until then they absolutely would grind it. Now you have a decrease in players running it anyway....

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                    • To get the the rolls I wanted I went through well over 250+ rolls. With the patch that would have been 250 runs let that sink in.

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                      • It is fine yes

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                      • Bearbeitet von Red Raider: 7/15/2019 10:09:18 PM
                        I think the patch with Menagerie is fine. Sure I'll run it a lot less, mainly just for my powerful reward runs and even then just for the mod drops. It also just seems to take awhile to go through for one reward, but that's just probably my mind playing tricks on me with the time it takes to travel between encounters. There could be some changes though I think could meet half way with people missing the loot and being able to get too much loot. One of the biggest changes that I think should be made is "Rune Bonus III", instead of a chance to drop an additional reward on opening the final chest it should be a guaranteed drop of a second item. Before the chest change this was most definitely the last perk on the chalice I went for just because it was only a chance and because you could farm the chest then. Now it can be more helpful, but still it's just a chance that isn't guaranteed. Another suggestion I could think of would be add in chests that spawn after encounters are completed fully with time left on the clock, award a job well done. Heroic Menagerie also needs to be improved upon since the extra effort just isn't worth it for the chance at a sword from the boss, or ship from the chest. Hell, add both my previous suggestions on ways to improve the Heroic Menagerie and if people complain about not enough loot for regular Menagerie you can at least say "go do Heroic if you want more loot".

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                      • Menagerie felt different when the chest glitch was in place. It seemed like more fun simple because of the chest loot mini game at the end. I'll play the mode regardless, but I feel like Bungie could increase the rewards without breaking the mode, and in keeping with the "opulence" feeling: Base the rewards on performance. Complete the activity in fewer encounters equates to extra chests at the end, with a minimum of one chest. Put an indicative the HUD showing something like 6 chests at the start. Reduce the number of chests by one for each encounter it takes to reach the boss. So a perfect run would mean 3 chests (lamp lighting plus 2 encounters). This fits the whole Opulence theme and fits Calus's pay for play, meritocracy, personality.

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