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ursprünglich gepostet in: Banned for being a programmer
Bearbeitet von Swixel: 11/4/2017 10:41:45 PM
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tl;dr: I doubt it's just "I had stuff open", I suspect it's more likely people are reporting players and Bungie are reviewing, potentially misinterpreting certain applications, and then issuing the bans. If it were automatic I'd have been banned in the first week. --- I'm putting this here because it might help for context. I haven't been banned (I closed my latest session before starting to write this reply), and my system is loaded down heavily with programming, debugging, and reverse engineering software. I need this software for work related reasons, so removing them is a no-go. I gave myself a quick read-through of the FAQs before I started, and things seem to be okay. I suspect there's more going on here than just "I had things open", because I've played a fair amount of Destiny 2 with mates, and alt-tabbed, written some code (with Visual Studio 2017 open), and even left a suspended process attached to windbg, VS2017's debugger, or other debuggers. Sometimes they need to go AFK for a few minutes (or more), so being able to do this is great (though these days it's usually Rust or Go, so it's VS Code, which is lighter, but that isn't so much the point beside it not being an IDE). I've even had terminal sessions open to other systems, and a VM running Kali Linux actively hammering a networked node as part of extended fuzzing. (The terminal sessions are relevant because they were moving a lot of encrypted data, albeit over LANs, and in two cases, a corporate VPN.) The big difference here I think is the community. I avoid PvP unless it's to get my crucible progress for the week. Most of the time my PvP games are atrocious: people warp, don't take hits, but somehow hit me (complaints further on this really belong elsewhere, so I won't drone on). My connection is fairly standard for where I am (which is to say I maintain 900-1000 kbps upload), which is more than sufficient to meet the minimum 5kbps per-other-player to not look like I'm skipping around. I've even monitored people using a second monitor (running on the Intel GPU) which displays NetLimiter (blocking, limiting, and priorities disabled), and it seems to be fairly standard where I am to have 5-10kbps being the range of transfer (I don't manipulate it, I just notice/watch it). As a result, despite my very occasional domination of opposition, I seriously doubt I'm being reported for cheating or bad network connections. However, I do report people who have a bad connection (usually benefit of the doubt, though when it's clear they're manipulating because the graph display shows spikes that are irregular and match their number of kills, it goes to network manipulation so Bungie can investigate that). I do not grief, or mess around with, anyone who isn't on my fireteam. This isn't to say I do it to/with them either, but rather, if we're mucking around with emotes, or seeing "what would happen if", we do it with consent of one another. Again, there'd be no evidence of that, and it's hugely unlikely I'd have eaten a report. Save for Day 1, I haven't launched Battle.net (and thus Destiny 2) as administrator. I am painfully aware of [url=https://us.battle.net/support/en/article/24075]the Battle.net policy of requiring administrator rights[/url], but, as long as you don't have Destiny 2 (or other Battle.net games) inside a folder which is restricted, you can get away with ignoring it (save for initial firewall nonsense for Destiny 2 on launch day, which was super weird). I have experienced network issues. A lot of network issues. I've gotten too familiar with various error codes (the recent one being baboon since the patch), where at certain times (typically as certain regions are likely to come online), I get punted back to orbit or I'm forced to reload into strikes. However, and perhaps to my own fortune, this has only been in PvE; if it happened in PvP I'd likely leave (I don't play competitive unless a quest requires it of me, so my team can pick up new members if I leave, and they'd have a disadvantage if I stayed). All of this said, I've never had anything inject into the game, nor have I run anything that could. Nothing runs as administrator that shouldn't, and I keep my system patched (it's Windows 10 and I let it update constantly). Regardless, I suspect the bigger issue is user reports. So I have the following two questions for those who are posting as programmers or developers, as I assume you're going to understand my logic/reasoning: - Has your internet connection had issues that could cause false positives for network related cheating (bad links to other players, either due to your own equipment (including software firewalls), or due to your ISP)? - Have you been in a situation where players are likely to have reported you for anything that is remotely ban worthy? --- For Bungie, and my own thoughts, I'd like to ask if it's possible to at least give a category(s) and/or number of reports issued against the user when they get banned. I know that most anti-cheat setups are designed not to give the information away (so that people making cheats can't just sidestep it), but at least knowing you got X reports (particularly if you were told which modes (Cruc:QP, Cruc:Comp, Trials, Raid:Lev, etc.)), it might give you some idea as to what it is you're meant to have done. As it stands I'd imagine that if the bans continue at this rate it's probably going to land in class action territory in certain countries. Being uneffected, despite running a lot of background software (which doesn't interfere), makes me suspect the community element. I hope that some/any of this helps certain people, even if it's just about writing reports/tickets and requesting information. Please be sure to ask Bungie if it was user reports, or automated, because if it was automated despite their assurance the bans are manual, it means there's a problem in their manual system.
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  • This is possible, and if it's true, then Cozmo's comment about saying people were using cheat tools "multiple times" is nonsense, because I've only played two matches in the crucible with no noticeable connection problems and immediately in a row and I was shortly banned afterwards. I don't have any cheat tools installed on my computer at all, so I have to assume one of my other programs was wrongfully flagged as a cheat, but given that Bungie gave no warning and just immediately banned me, I have no way of even knowing what it could be.

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  • I posted a hardware survey thread, and it kind of supported my suspicions... https://www.bungie.net/en/Forums/Post/237634674?sort=0&page=0 Love to have smarter eyeballs than mine on it.

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  • This is pretty much my situation as well.

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  • I, for one, haven't been banned. I run Destiny 2 in usermode, don't let anything near it, and make sure that if I do suspend debugging in the background it's from tools I trust (at least enough that they won't jump onto other processes). I also still don't have anyone on my friends list who has been banned. I'm curious as to what Cozmo means in [url=https://www.bungie.net/en/Forums/Post/237680204?sort=0&page=0&path=1]this post[/url], and I'm really hopeful that it turns out to be some virus scanner or anti-malware scanner trying to access something and tripping a (false) flag.

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  • Usermode? You just execute the game and play or you do something before you play the game?

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  • Which is to say that I don't launch Battle.net as administrator, nor do I launch it via anything that elevates Destiny 2 to administrator status. Nor do I have UAC set to auto-elevate (it prompts if it needs it, or wants it). Yes, there are bypasses and all sorts of exploits that malicious third parties can use (which is to say bad actors), but those require time and effort, in contrast to setting the security level to nil and letting anything run as administrator as it pleases. --- The "Usermode" term isn't so much from Windows, and is probably a hint at what I do, more than anything else.

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  • Ohh okay I understand. I don't run battlenet as admin either, I don't think it makes much difference though other than it runs as admin and that might help with security. Not sure though.

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  • It's more that if certain users were running it as administrator to bypass restrictions (I had to do it on launch day to force a firewall rule to appropriately enable UPnP), it could explain how other applications injected (i.e. if they'd lowered the UAC bar to auto-accept instead of prompt).

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  • Yeah that could explain the injection of applications too I guess. You have a good point man xD I think we'll have to wait to see if Bungie comes out with an official response to all of this, they need to be more clear with what they're doing.

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  • Man, I've done Crucible exactly twice and performed like utter garbage, I don't normally take part in competitive elements in MMOs; way too stressful. Don't use in game chat beyond saying "Thanks for having me!" or something like that. If it's due to non-technical reasons it's gotta be some griefer having a laugh at my expense :(

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  • The sad part is, that wouldn't surprise me if it turned out to be people griefing the report system. If they're following literally every report and assuming most are valid (i.e. from that one tiny snapshot), you'll get an insane number of false positives. I'm hoping there's more to it, or they've got some background process checksum collision (like CheatEngine and some version of NOD32 sharing the same CRC32, though why you'd use CRC32 over SHA512 or better for something this important, I don't know).

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  • Bearbeitet von Aeric: 11/5/2017 3:18:06 AM
    I wouldn't be surprised, I tend to take the easiest way out when I'm monitoring BYOD in my workspace and only investigate when I receive an incident ticket. Better safe than sorry right?

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  • Thank you for the very helpful and insightful post... I can't think of anything that'd warrant a ban, I once said leavers are terrible people, and swords are bullshit, in 2 separate crucible matches, otherwise I can't think of anything community-wise. I don't have severe lag issues in any games (or, at least not consistently, apparently some of the backbone servers in central texas are connected with a tin can and a string and one mousefart can take them down), but when I'm experiencing that kind of problem, that's my last game until the connection rights itself. I blame the "I was running ____" because that's the only thing I could think of, I don't perform exceptionally in crucible, or PVE, but I may have been running something that COULD inject. But it didn't, and it merely being open preceded the ban by many days, maybe a week+, it hadn't occurred to me that it may have been a wave. But I'm still absolutely not cheating, and 100% confident that they could spectate me at literally any time and have zero suspicion. I've brought up my long and ban-free history with other companies related and not related to bungie a few times, I won't spam them again, but I do not cheat in or modify multiplayer games. I've kept my chat and voice interactions minimal, and I believe if you're banned for conduct, they email you about it, or warn you first. No hacking, no exploiting, people I play with are untouched, so autoban is the only thing I can come up with that is logically consistent with my experience. And the complete communication brick wall I've received in attempting to tell anyone from Bungie about it is absolutely infuriating. I've had a more hands-on helpful approach from an indie team of like, 5 whole people, who took time out of their day to investigate. (It was a technical issue, not a ban, but still, I don't see a tech support ticket system here either, or an email, and their twitter is locked to DMs, and... you get the idea).

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  • I suspect that's the case for a lot of people. I had a look around the forums to see when the new ban complaint spike started. The patch is looking like it's done something weird to the community, or maybe to the network/game performance. I disabled vsync and hoped my cvar-based limiting would be enough (it made some performance difference), but it got me thinking (as I stepped someone else through it) that it may be appearing to be something shonky (I recall Battle(non)sense talking about frame being tied too closely to game logic).

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  • Hah, I love that guy - (Battlenonsense), and I've noticed of the few people who post about their out of nowhere bans almost exclusively seem to be using NVidia 10xx series hardware, could be coincidence, because extremely small sample sizes, but I consistently get over 120-140fps, so if it's tied to game logic I could see that causing a helluva spike in packets or some kind of network traffic. Excellent observation, it may be neither a community/behavior issue or a running programs thing. Actually, we should survey the recent false bans and see if there's a consistent thing here. We'll have some bad data, as I'm sure *some* people were actually doing something wrong and got caught, but the huge spike in reports of it seems weird, and like I said before, I'm more inclined to believe it after being on the receiving end. And then we could objectively test it if the data gives us cause to do so.

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