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8/30/2016 4:54:59 PM
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Yep. You didn't strafe effectively or use your nade to force him to un scope and dodge.
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  • [quote]Yep. You didn't strafe effectively or use your nade to force him to un scope and dodge.[/quote]

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  • Shooting him three times in the face should've forced him to unscope imo.

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  • descoping mechanics wouldn't fit in destiny's current design.

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  • And the current sniper mechanics don't fit in destinies design.

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  • Kind of do though. They are agile and snappy. Fits with destiny's quick paced nature.

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  • But they are also great at sitting back and hardscoping. So they can just do everything. And that makes sense to you. Did you forget there are 3 other special weapons in the category that no where compete with the usefulness of a sniper.

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  • Just because something is capable doesn't mean it's doing the best. A shotgun/fusion rifle are much better at cqc. Unless you're like some no scoping god. Pretty sure you're just salty.

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  • [quote]Just because something is capable doesn't mean it's doing the best. A shotgun/fusion rifle are much better at cqc. Unless you're like some no scoping god. Pretty sure you're just salty.[/quote]

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  • Look dude. When it comes to gun Balance. It's all about skill. Having skill and tactics. Let's look at players with skill with these special weapons. Now if you have skill with a shotgun or fusion, you basically have 3 courses of action, risk running in, sitting and waiting, or baiting. A shotgun requires you to get extremely close. There's nothing you can do about that. Great shotgun skill requires great rushing skills. But literally just backing up and looking at your radar and using a primary can easily defeat a shotgunner. It happens to me all the time. Handcannons are great as well as autos for taking out that rusher. Then you have fusions. Fusions with the right role can ohk from a little further than shotgun range, and some of them have quick charge times making it almost as quick as a shotgun. So naturally these are great shotgun counters as well. But still, you must be clos3, being shot will most likely throw off your aim and you won't get the ohk. Also there is still a second or two of charge that allows the other player to dodge and strike back. Sidearms, well live in the shadow of other ohk specials. So things seem kind of balanced so far. Both have major pros and major cons. So we get to the sniper. Traditionally in games, if a sniper is even seen, they're most likely dead. But then came quickscoping, allowing you to run it offensively. Then came destiny. The dumbest balancing of snipers I've ever seen. So snipers have many opportunities in gamestyle to play with. Stay out of sight, hardscope from the back. Stay at one point and block an entire lane, forcing a team to use another. Run in with quick scoping. Stay at close distance and use 1 body shot, then quick switch to tlw and 1 body shot. These are the gamestyle issues that allow someone with skill with a sniper to effectively use it in all of these ways. I started to have a problem with snipers in this game when I was consistently being sniped from about 10 feet away like it was no problem. Now let's look at the weapons themselves. So snipers come in a wide variety. And the wide varieties let you pick one best for your playstyle. Isn't that awesome. Where as a shotgun let's you slide a little further, all you want is distance and impact. But the right sniper, can get you an advatage in any battle that you try to set up. Quick shot snipers allow 2 rapid body shots with a faster death rate than any gun. Unflinching, improved target aq, snaoshot, long scopes, low zoom scopes. Snipers perks and scopes literally take away the counters of traditional sniping mechanics. So much so, that the perks you want on your sniper are effectively to create a high aim assist weapon. Unflinching, allows the sniper to take his time in any battle and basically win, an, single, gun fight. Against any gun. The only guns that present a problem are other specials. And as long as the sniper can either a put himself in a good position, which everyone knows the good sniper positions now, or can keep putting space between him and rushing shotgunner, he will always have the advantage. So while I lay in 2 or 3 headshots, and strafe, he gets about 2 or 3 seconds to line up his shot, and fire. Even without Unflinching recoil all behaves consitantly which means once you get used to a certain snipers recoil pattern, recoil barely does anything. Low zoom scopes and quicksnap allow you to quickscope from about fusion range. So the distance sniper is now effectively a ohk scout rifle with a slower rtf. Having to get 1 headshot in a matter of 3 seconds is easier and quicker than getting 4 headshots in 3 seconds. That's just logic. And it makes sense for distance, but not against an auto rifle in range. Lastly let's look at the actual Balance of sniping. Put every special weapon in the hands of a great player. Not elite, but just anyone who picks up and actually practices with a weapon. Shotguns in great hands, can not fire any further. They are still limited to their core mechanics of close combat. Same goes with fusions, they can't be more accurate just because the user is good. Their charge rate and spread stays the same. They both have the same, constant counters. If you can counter 1 great shotgun rusher, you can counter them all. But snipers have so many ways of being effective in destiny, in order to.counter a sniper effectively, you must fist learn how they play and what they are capable of what type of skill in the sniping tree do they use. This usually takes a fair amount of trial and error or observation time. We'll in a game, you don't have that time. You stick your head out and die. Now you know they're good at distance. Next round he rushes. So you charge with your shotgun, clearly having the advatage. Turn the corner, boom, headshot. Sniper took you out from 10 feet away. OK now you know he's good at quickscoping. So you decide to challenge hum in the distance game with your mida. You jump around the corner he's aiming at, start getting off heashots, 3 shots down, boom, headshot. Do you see where I'm going with this. What you're looking at here, is a required tactical plan and the use of abilities to gain any advatage on a decent sniper. Which is not required to counter any other special. The reason snipers are op is because the vast usefulness. They advatage to sniper skill versus any other weapon skill in the game. Because once a sniper has gained his skill. He's effectively a 1 hk from any point on the map in just a couple of seconds, effectively making the sniper a counter to any and all weapons at any greater than 5 feet. People always think others who complain about close combat with snipers, are referring to be constantly no scoped from point blank range. No we complain about being quickscoped or hardscoped from just outside of shotgun range, because it's easy for a lot of people, not luck, like it should be at that distance. I see it all the time. Those who rely on their gun skill, are basically useless against a decent sniper who can be effective at any range. Snipers are not impossible to beat. But it requires alot of guess work, luck, and usually another sniper. I didn't talk about team tactics and abilities because it become too complicated to balance. Gun skill needs to be balanced in itself, and so on. That's how you reach Balance in a game. Destiny is not balanced in any way, across guns, abilities, subclasses, classes, maps. They don't even switch sides in trials. Come on now

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  • Bearbeitet von Knight Raime: 8/31/2016 8:31:32 PM
    Perfect balance doesn't exist and will never exist in a decent thriving game that plans to have any kind of longevity. Also it's a little hypocritical of you to acknowledge skill plays a huge part in gun fights yet you refuse to accept that those who can consistently quick scope are not skilled. And that it's just EZ mode. Few problems with your statement though: 1) A sniper body shotting someone and following up with a primary is not a sniper issue. You're not killing them with a sniper. That would be like me calling a shotgun over powered because the storm caller can shotty melee farther than anyone else. 2) You recognize the variety in play for snipers but you refuse to acknowledge other specials have variety as well. Fusions have 3 groups. Fastest charging, medium charge, long charge. Fastest charging is the equivelant of your perfect sniper example. Removes all of the downsides of a fusion to make a panic weapon that can OHK decently far away. Then you've got mediums which require a bit of pre charging but require less leading and have a farther OHK range. Slowest charging ones require the least bolts to land and the least leading but require you to master pre charging. Shotguns have 2 groups. Fast firing low impact and slow firing high impact. The former usually runs with perks that let you get in close easier and allow you to hold the trigger and get an easy kill. Trade off is range. The latter has a farther OHK but has a big penalty for messing up and not being as accurate as possible. Both shotguns and fusion rifles can be modified to bend their engagement rules and push their roles out farther than by base design. The numerous nerfs to both should be evident to this. 3) Side arms ARE good. They compliment AR's very well. Pair nicely with NLB/UR, and are also very good at dump trucking the lazy shotgun rushers. People really underestimate them. 4) Snipers have a natural counter besides other snipers. Scouts. I challenge with a mida all the time. Used to with my IB scout when it was light relevant. Some pulse rifles can as well. And since we're talking about how snipers are supposedly good at all ranges that means at each range there are proper counters for them. cqc no/quick scoper? Shotgun, fusion, hand cannons, bullet hose autos. Medium range hallway snipers? Pulses, scouts, Slower firing ARs, First curse/hawkmoon. Corner hard scoper down far distances? Snipers, scouts, grasp of malock. 5) People talk about how you can't challenge a hard scoper. Even if we ignore my last point people are forgetting something. Their nade. If you place a good nade and then challenge they've got 2 options. Stay and try to kill you in hopes for a trade. Or un scoping and running away in hopes to fight another day. Warlocks have axions and tracking scatters. both will push someone out especially if you've already started firing. Titans have lightning grenades, incendiaries, and suppressors. Hunters have skips, smoke, fire wall, trips, and incendiary. All of those nades are good for tilting the favor for challenging a sniper. You are right about one thing. Destiny isn't balanced. There are still a few issues. No doubt we will have a few more problem weapons when RoI drops. But it is the best it's ever been. I truly believe anyone who thinks snipers take no skill and/or are too good at the moment just want the old year 1 back. where any primary could challenge a sniper because we had no damage drop off and TTK for most weapons was melty.

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  • So you brought in some arguments involving abilities. Leave them out. We're not talking about abilities. But to your point, yes brining in warlocks melee range to a shotgun discussion would be a relevant issue if we were discussing abilities as well. And you're right, scouts should be a good challenge to snipers. But I constantly get killed by a sniper after 2 or 3 precision shots. That was one of my arguments about flinch. I only find these issues to be problematic in trials with snipers. Also, quickscoping does take skill. As I can't run out and start quickscoping without practice. Ez mode or not it's part of the game. The argument about sniping mechanics is not what it can't do, but what It can do. Every distance has effective gamestyle to use, and with skill can most likely beat any other weapon in most situations. Snipers need a across every style a common and consistent counter. Like fusions. Low charge still gives you a second to change direction, or hit the player and throw off his aim. No matter what weapon we talk about there is a counter for it. But a sniper with an agile scope, unflinching and high target acquisition in skilled hands has no effective counter. Since they can beat a scout or pulse or auto consitantly. Someone just made a post with a video showing how he hit 3 direct headshots with a mida, then got sniped by the same guy. Because they can do that. The other day in trials me and friend got 1hk headshot by a sniper 10 feet in under 2 seconds because it looked like he was rushing, and they can do that. So if they can be effective from 10 feet against a skilled rushing shotgunner, and they can also be effective against a skilled scout rifle at long range, or mid range. Can you please tell me their effective counter. Because what you mentioned is not a counter. It should be, but it's not as my experience and alot of others can't counter it in the way you said. I fell like you're not even trying to understand my point, but just arguing like I'm a whiny baby. I'm not bias. I love snipers. But not in destiny. There are too many pr9blems with them to even discuss. Destiny needs to change 1 aspect of the sniper to make it fair. And there are so many singular aspects they could change. Right now, bungie is at the point they don't know what the sniper should be in destiny. They're still beta testing it, like they did with everything else. They will change. I promise. They tried changing ammo, it didn't work. They will try something else.

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  • Counters mean something is effective against them. Even if we disregard guardian abilities and focus only on the weapons I listed they still ring true as counters. You view a counter as a hard way to 100% stop something. Or at least that's the feel i'm getting from you. Countering only looks at things on paper. Doesn't involve player skill. So on paper what I listed is effective. When you account for player skill this changes things. I've literally had this same argument with people in overwatch. Using a counter doesn't mean you will win. it just means you have an advantage. The player still has plenty of room to beat you providing they have the skill. So I ask you. Are you arguing with paper? Or are you arguing with skill? Because on paper my solutions are counters. If you argue from skill there is no definitive counter other than player skill. Like your shotgun example where someone rushes you down with one. You say that the player has time due to the range constraints to react quick enough and gun them down with a primary. This sounds like you're speaking on paper. But if the player who's being rushed is not smart enough or the player who is rushing chose to imploy some tactic to let him win he's got an equal chance of winning despite being in the disadvantage. You are saying snipers "can" be used in all ranges. Well so can any primary. But is a sniper effective in cqc? No. Just as hand cannons are not effective at distance. Players with skill can bend these rules of engagement. But they don't dictate them. Which is what you're doing. In terms of Bungie's actions you're right. They probably will. They will probably continue to make changes to pvp until Destiny 2 is released. Does this mean it's the right course of action? No. And they've already tweaked snipers quite a bit. They changed their zoom in and out times as well as the zoom levels of the low level scopes. I know they made at least one more or 2 more changes. Point is they've done stuff to them. While It may seem like I view you as a whiny baby I don't. I just don't agree with you. A majority of the time i've been sniped it's been by someone who's peaking a lane. I've hardly ever been beaten by them close range or even medium. And I'd be willing to be that for the majority of the player base this is the same. Trials is a special example because you get the cream of the crop people. And while Bungie should be looking at the most skilled players when considering balance they shouldn't use that as the only avenue. If people were quick scoping in average games on a consistent basis I'd agree with you. But I don't believe someone sitting at the end of a hall and sniping someone real quick before dropping it as a quick scope. When I picture quick scoping I picture someone running a sniper at max OHK shotgun range sniper already out just banging out headshots. Destiny is a game that gives players plenty of tools to work with and allows us to dictate our situations. So using outside logic doesn't really apply. Primary weapons do not mean they are the weapon you should have out 90% of the time. Just as special weapons do not mean they are only pulled out on occasion. If this was how things were meant to be we wouldn't spawn with 3 weapons. And we sure as heck wouldn't have the freedom of movement that we do now. If Bungie decides to nerf snipers again it's not going to change how they are used. Players will still run them over other specials because the current overall meta favors not running in blindly. It favors more cautionary play where you peak corners and start engagments with an ability rather than a weapon. Just as shotguns will never go away because so many maps feature cqc gameplay. The only way Bungie can truly rule in the special game is by removing special ammo from everyone across the board and never let us spawn with it again. They would cut down on the box spawns and increase the time on how long they will be out before spawning again. I will concede that snipers are the most flexible special weapon. But I only agree with this because player skill allows this to be true. Without it the sniper would only be effective in lanes and long distances. Which unsurprisingly is where it's used most often.

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  • No I'm not talking about numbers in a game. I'm talking about real life player usage. Which yes, is not about paper. Mathematically I don't know enough about destiny's coding to figure out what mechanics and processes beat eachother. I can look at a bunch of footage and see patterns and turn those patterns and observations into logical realizations. It's just common sense. A sniper is simply a single bullet gun that delivers a powerful shot at any distance. The same in every single game ever. In every game, almost, a bullet from across map, or from an inch away is powerful enough to kill. So games make it harder to use up close just like in real life. Destiny, does not. It's all about skill. Because if I don't quickscope, and if I picked one up. I won't do well. If I practice, eventually I will be good. Which will allow me to use that skill to gain an advtange. This, right here, with skill, is where Balance needs to take place. When you have skill with a certain gun or tactic, they need to balance out, so the war, and guns are free to use. If a gun can't kill faster than another with skill on both guns, then 1 gun is useless. Do you see what I'm saying. And this is where snipers are running into. Now you can find plenty of people who went flawless with no snipers. Because it's possible. But I guarantee the most used weapon and highest kills weapon in trials is the sniper. For a reason. On most maps. I'm not here to say snipers are cheaters or scrubs. I'm saying the balance of the sniper in destiny is too forgiving and gives the sniper skill too much advatage in too many situations between weapons.

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  • I don't see how Destiny snipers are easier to use compared to your typical FPS. Unflinching doesn't give anywhere near as much benefit as say the perks in cod that reduce flinch. and the shorter scopes are not as short as some other games. Especially some games which lets you run iron sights on snipers. Battlefield is the only common FPS i'm aware of where sniping is noticeably different. Trials again is a poor example because the best players use the best gear. Doesn't mean said gear is a problem Trials also is a lot more about a single life and on a much smaller scale. So anything that's beneficial at range is going to be favored. I understand what you're saying. I have been this entire time. I just don't agree.

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  • Well see every game does something to give other weapons a chance. A loophole in the sniper system. For example, halo, like 1 2 and 3, not the dumb new shit with classes. Same as destiny. 1 head, 2 body. Allows for easier no scope, but descope on hit. It was an op gun, so they only gave you very very limited ammo, and you had to fight for the 1 between 2 teams. But when the team had it, the other team always looked out for him because it was an easy kill. I was amazing at halo sniping. Having to move the reticle the same speed as the body till you got the right shot. Cod, until quickscoping. When ads, reticle wouldn't line up perfect Center of screen. Required aiming, and had sway. Had to time taking a breath. If an enemy with an smg came up, you were screwed. Possible to no scope. But unlikely, and only a lucky shot. Once quickscoping was found out with one weapon in cod, it just became popular, because it was an easy 1 shot kill if you put the guy in the center of your screen. Then they started making snipers specifically for the quickscope community, dialing down the skill. Now look at it, that have like rail guns that 1 hit kill and pistols. There's no real skill involved any more. Half the aiming is wild sporadic fire that some how is an amazing kill. Back in my day, when that was my final kill cam, I was embarrassed. Everyone was, and apologized to everyone else for the ugly kill. Battlefield, nuff said really. Don't gotta describe that one. I dn. I've always been a sniper, until quickscoping ruined the fun.

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  • Descoping works for halo though because of the standard TTK in the game and how every weapon is effective without ADSing aside from snipers. Destiny you need to ADS for most weapons and it's TTK is much faster. And actually Black ops 3 completely removed aim assist on snipers. So it's the most skilled it's ever been in my opinion. Destiny is somewhere in the middle of those 2. and I feel they did snipers well.

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  • When I was talking about bops3 I wasn't talking about the sniping, I was talking about like the smg kills. Whenever I see a sniper kill it's pretty much on the guy. But in my opini9n, destiny did the sniper great for pve. And not bad for 6v6. But for trials, the sniper is out of place.

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  • My bad. I dunno imho smg's don't feel as good as they did back in MW2. I chalk that up to the nature of how trials behaves in general. Though there was a time when shotguns ruled trials. During the dark days of shot package of course.

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  • And during those days, I would have had a blast. But I wasn't there. I'm not the best trials player. But it's also because I'm not really competitive anymore. I used to care about kd when I was younger. Like mw2. Had a constant 2.7 ratio after more than a year of playing. Also played alot more back then. But I came into trials and got dominated by snipers. And over the past months I see a very familiar pattern in the players I face. Usually 2 snipers. 2 shotguns. 1 person running both. Or 3 snipers and 1 shotguns. But seeing only 1 sniper equipped is such a rarity, it's actually exciting for my team. We always, and I mean always recked them. But my team is not great at sniping, and I'm the only good rusher, but not good enough to face a 3v1, like I've seen. Also the hc, sniper loadout is extremely popular. I suck against hand cannons, but I know they're not op I play with the same guys every weekend. Our main problem is we don't play enough. Usually 2 to 4 cards a weekend. And I'm always high af, one of them is usually drunk and the third guy isn't good no matter what happens. Then we play against these incredible teams that just have an automatic response no matter what move we make. It's crazy to see haha. But we respect that. But as I've gone, I've tried everything against snipers, and constantly are amazed by the shots happening to me. Like if it was any other game, they were the woah, that was a lucky shot or that's an amazing sniper moments. It happened like one or twice a week when I played like 30 hours a week. Now I usually play like 3 hours a week, and it's happens every other game. It honestly takes the fun out of it. I love dodging sniper fire. I really am very good at it in every other game. Running, jumping, sliding, spinning, ducking. This game though, boom head shot. Boom headshot. Boom headshot. Like 5 minutes ago,I was playing on a small map, with the tunnels and great for shotguns. I'm running through the bottom left open door to get to c point. There's a guy on my radar, don't know where he is, don't care, but instead of running in, I jump and skate in at a higher level than if I was running. I'm going fast, and about 2 seconds after I'm in, charging at a diagnol line in front of him, boom headshot. That's why snipers need to change, getting a shot off like that, should be a miracle.

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  • Perhaps you guys need to learn how to deal with snipers. My team when we run trials absolutely rips apart a team once we figure out what they were bad at. This one match in particular these guys were dominating us when we tried to sniper v sniper. Once we figured out though that they absolutely could not keep that level of accuracy up when we pinch them VIA pushing in aggressively we just charged with reckless abandon and came back from a sure loss.

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  • See my whole thing with snipers isn't just because I have a hard time with them. I don't from a distance honestly. I'm able to get around snipers. Again, I don't think they're invincible. With my abilities and supers and friends sniping when we lose, we usually get outplayed. My whole "rant" is purely about how I see them used in comparison to the other specials. I chose my playstyke, run and gun. It's not the most effective without a good team behind you unless you're amazing. But I find it the most enjoyable. But it does agitate me when I lose a 10 ft battle constantly in a shotgun vs sniper battle. No matter how fast I'm going, or how high I am, they snipe me like I'm standing still from 10 feet away. It really does take away the alot of the fun.

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  • Yeah I can get that. I personally don't ever feel good when I get killed by a shotgun. Coming from a guy who used shotguns exclusively in year one. Really the only time I can recall being upset at snipers at all is when my headshots don't register. But that's more of a netcode issue.

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