Still not convinced those ships are directly The Darkness.
The Darkness/Deep has been called the formless one. For example from the 'Grasp of Eir'
[quote]At the beginning, they stood in thrall of the Formless One, and they offered themselves to its depth.[/quote]
or Worm God's Boon
[quote]They had a choice. They chose the hunger. They chose the Formless One. They chose the Worm Gods.[/quote]
Calus also seems to have encountered this formless one, 'a nothingness' he encounters at the edge of the Universe.
[quote]At the edge of the universe, I stared into the infinite deep. It stared back, and was pleased. I would become the herald of its victory, and bear witness for all creation.[/quote]
We also have the Leviathan of Fundament that tells us
[quote]++We live on the edge of a war—
—a war between Formless and Form++
++between the Deep and the Sky—[/quote]
Rasputin does not refer to the force that he encountered as a fleet of ships, his term for the Darkness is IT and also Queen of Final Shapes.
There is also the anomaly that was detected by Titan scientists, which appears to be around the time the Traveler left Io and just before they started to evacuate Titan.
[quote]Send a deep-space probe toward the anomaly. I want to know what it is.[/quote] —Dr. Shanice Pell
English
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I don't think the darkness is nothing. http://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/kairos-function-3?highlight=The+darkness+is The unenlightened wonder at my so-called “fixation” upon the Vex. They believe our gravest existential threat is the Hive, for those beings have made a pact with the Darkness itself via the medium of the Worm Gods (according to Toland, at least, and I see no reason to doubt him in this). But Darkness is not merely absence of Light. Darkness is an entity unto itself. [b]Put simply, Darkness is not Nothing.[/b]
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Calus encountered some kind of entity at the edge of the universe, one that he did not understand, could not define, so he labelled it 'a nothing', and he would herald its arrival. It is not too dissimilar to Oryx saying that he had conquered his way to the edge of the Deep and that it told him to come inside. Both the Darkness/Deep and the nothing are talked about in the same way, formless and nothing. Ulan Tan tells us that it is Light that keeps the Darkness from entering the space between stars, which implies that it also prevents it from entering the universe as the universe is full of stars. So both the Darkness and Calus's nothing are both outside the universe. The Hive, the worm gods, Toland, even Osiris himself have never mentioned a third power.
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Yes but the darkness is not nothing as Osiris said. Nothing is not darkness. Nothing is worse than darkness as darkness is something. Then formless is something.
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<Hear me out, what if... The main ship, the biggest one in the Illuminati Fleet, is the Darkness itself, or holds it. The way the Traveler (according to Osiris) holds its own god. So the Darkness has its own... "incubator" or sorts. The other ships and even the main ship were built by the proxies of the Deep in order to make it a form. To make the Darkness something. Even then, the Darkness is something. But it has a formless shape on its own, so the mothership gives it a form. On its own it is everything and nothing. This would make most of its names make sense. It would be the Formless One because it doesn't take a direct form on its own. It would be the Darkness because it's the opposite to the Light and is another cause for the "Dark Future". It would be the Deep because it once resided in the [u]deep[/u] oceans of Fundament. It would be IT because it's hard to explain. It would be the Flower-Eater because the Traveler makes things grow and prosper, while IT destroys. It would be the Queen of Final Shapes because that's its logic and end-goal, to bring the universe to one, final, shape.>
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Edited by Ghost593835: 12/21/2017 2:48:08 PMMy only problem is that Osiris say the dark isn't the embodiment of nothing. For example. Chaos from the greek world embodies nothing. The personification of nothingness from which all of existence sprang. Depicted as a void. Initially genderless, later on described as female.
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[quote]The personification of nothingness from which all of existence sprang. Depicted as a void. Initially genderless, later on described as female.[/quote] <So... the Darkness? It's initially described as IT and has no gender. Though Rasputin calls it the Queen of Final Shapes and a data-mined quote from Lakshmi-2 references "Tenebra" which is a feminine Latin word for Darkness.>
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Edited by Ghost593835: 12/21/2017 3:11:16 PMExpect Osiris straight out says its not nothing. He says it's something. Something can not embody nothing, the darkness is the embodiment of death. The darkness is death itself and the traveler is life. The darkness wants the strongest life to exist. The Nothing wants everything to not exist.
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Yet Calus also says that this nothing exists. If it exists then it too is something and can not embody nothing. There is something else that Calus says that has bearing on the end. [quote]Now I've seen everything. We were all so wrong. All of this—the machines, the Eliksni, the worms, the Light, the Nine. All of it meaningless. This galaxy is tumbling towards a singular conclusion and there is nothing—no one—that can stop it.[/quote] He lists everything else except the Darkness. He even states that the worms have got it wrong, implying that they have been manipulated or lied to about the end of the universe.
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Fair point fair but the darkness is still something not nothing.
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<But is the Nothing even something we have to be afraid of as a separate thing? What if it is just Calus trying to describe the Darkness but can't because he's a simple Cabal. I mean, he's not all powerful. The Nightmare Realm was created by Psions and he is pretty egotistical. Whereas the Hive and other powerful beings can describe it because they have seen that power in action and knows what it can do. Also who can say that there will be anything left after the Darkness swoops down and murders everything. The only thing with a chance of beating it is the Traveler but that's because it's pretty much its opposite. Humans were supposed to die if the Traveler didn't sacrifice itself, the Fallen were supposed to be wiped off the map but escaped with heavy losses. Every other species besides its servants have been destroyed to the point of extinction if not close to it. And whose to say that the Hive won't be destroyed, either? We've had a decent win rate against them recently. The Darkness may just murder them because of their failures. Also, the Hive will starve without things to kill, so the Darkness would probably wipe them off the map anyway.>
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This is the same way I am thinking, Calus encountered a force that he couldn't define. Whatever he encountered exists and therefore can not truly be nothing or embody non-existence. Calus also says something else [quote]Now I've seen everything. We were all so wrong. All of this—the machines, the Eliksni, the worms, the Light, the Nine. All of it meaningless. This galaxy is tumbling towards a singular conclusion and there is nothing—no one—that can stop it.[/quote] He lists the Light, Worms, Vex, the Nine, and for some reason the Fallen, but he makes no mention about the Darkness/Deep being wrong. It's something I've considered before, that the Darkness/Deep manipulated the worms, or outright lied to them about it's plans, its actual goal for the universe. We know from the Leviathan of Fundament that the war is between form and formless with the Sky charging the fires of existence and the Deep smothering those flames. The Deep talks about the universe guttering down, everything dying out, ceasing to exist.
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[quote]<But is the Nothing even something we have to be afraid of as a separate thing? What if it is just Calus trying to describe the Darkness but can't because he's a simple Cabal. I mean, he's not all powerful. The Nightmare Realm was created by Psions and he is pretty egotistical. Whereas the Hive and other powerful beings can describe it because they have seen that power in action and knows what it can do. Oh i believe calus is beyond just a simple cabal, i think he has paracasual powers. Trained probably by the pisons. Calus is something that uses the pisons, uses other races etc. Yes he has an ego but he is beyond that of a cabal. Why do think ghaul needed the light, to kill calus. Also who can say that there will be anything left after the Darkness swoops down and murders everything. The only thing with a chance of beating it is the Traveler but that's because it's pretty much its opposite. Humans were supposed to die if the Traveler didn't sacrifice itself, the Fallen were supposed to be wiped off the map but escaped with heavy losses. Every other species besides its servants have been destroyed to the point of extinction if not close to it. And whose to say that the Hive won't be destroyed, either? We've had a decent win rate against them recently. The Darkness may just murder them because of their failures. Also, the Hive will starve without things to kill, so the Darkness would probably wipe them off the map anyway.>[/quote] It will still be death, nothing is wiping out existence until its Nothing. Not even darkness is there. Just nothing.
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Even the nothing is something, it's an entity, it has existence, it has intelligence and purpose. It is something that Calus could not define or explain. Calus even says that if such a thing exists, then he too can become more. If it exists, then it isn't truly nothing. What Osiris says is deliberately obscure because Bungie want to maintain mystery.
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Until bungie says the darkness is the embodiment of nothing. We will never know. I still believe the Nothing is not the darkness but an entity the embodies nonexistence.
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Fun Fact: Bungie's response to the concept art of the similar ships in a IGN fireteam chat of 59 Destiny Concepts You Need To See (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1DHwcDqaQ_o), they responded by saying oh we are not going talking about these just yet.
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Still doesn't make them 'the Darkness/Deep' We still don't know what the Tenebrae are/is or where they/it fits in. We still have D3 and D4 to go (contractual obligation).
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Edited by Fal Chavam: 12/17/2017 7:29:49 PMI agree. I originally had thw darkness figured as a single, massive, lucid entity that resembled a black flame. Though that may still be true. The fleet could be creatures that have been corrupted beyond recognition.
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Edited by Haffoc: 12/18/2017 10:30:38 PMThis is just pure speculation, but still a possibility. We all assume that the worm gods are exactly as the Books of Sorrow say, but Savathun does graffiti the Books to say it is full of lies. What if the worms aren't actually moon-sized worms, but are advanced ships. Oryx claims he made the Dreadnaught from the carcass of a worm, but what if he actually just salvaged parts of a more advanced ship, it would add a whole new meaning to Yul's statement. [quote]Behold the hiving cities symbiotic with my flesh.[/quote] Those hiving cities would become crew. I've often wondered whether the Fundament Leviathan was actually a ship, from the way it's talk is portrayed and from the description [quote]And the Leviathan loomed over them, its brow as huge all the continents of their childhood,[b] its great array-fins crackling with the lightning[/b] of its life. Booming into the hull of the needle ship in [b]a microwave voice[/b]:[/quote] arrays crackling with energy, a microwave 'voice'... Perhaps that is what those ships are, the 'worm gods'. Just a thought.
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issue with the darkness being the formless entity, how do you fight it and how can it have a menacing presence if it's essentially just black space smoke
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Not smoke, but a fire. The Darkness is not killed, but extinguished.
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Edited by Haffoc: 12/18/2017 10:02:26 PMWith Light. So far the Taken are the closest we have to the Darkness. It's likely one of the reasons the Darkness wants to see the Light snuffed and the Traveler destroyed, it is the one force in the universe that can defeat it. Keksis, a Taken, states the Light is directly opposite or mutually incompatible with his existence. [quote]Pinions of [Light] surround me; they are antithetical to my being. I hate them; perhaps an echo of my forgotten directive. I kill them.[/quote]
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It's possible those ships are related to the alien minds that are twinned to the Awoken and possibly the Nine. From GF Legends 2 [quote]The Nine are survivors of the cis-Jovian colonies who made a compact with an alien force to ensure their own survival.[/quote] Xur says the Jovian colonies chose what happened to them, but the Awoken didn't - suggesting whatever changed the Jovians affected the Awoken too. Some of the other possibilities from GF Legends 2 have come true, nine ghosts and deep orbit Warminds. Perhaps these ships are something to do with all that. The alien force who made a compact with the Jovians, who now also linger inside the Awoken. It's a possibility.