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Edited by Xii Alpha iiXx: 7/15/2016 10:32:50 AM
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People are so flipping stupid. They wanted so many primary weapons nerfed. They got it and then complain about the the g0d damn results. Oh I can't kill them with my primary so snipers must be overpowered and a problem.. When in reality the lack of primary power is the issue. You sucked the joy out of pvp already. Seriously stop encouraging nerfs. The descope thing is absolutely the dumbest desire the game has ever faced. Snipers have no Hip fire reticle. They would become useless in pvp but mainly in pve. The flinch is still very high but with .8 primary kill times players have more time to counter the flinch. If they didn't have time to reset. It wouldn't matter. You people have to be year 2 players or Year 1 players who are just horrible at pvp. Not only that but if you actually took the time to do your research you would see that shotguns are used for more then sniper rifles. According to Guardian.gg this week more people use shotguns in most play list besides skirmish and Trials. This is the case most of the time. Shotguns are used more than snipers. In control snipers are normally around 10 percent while shotguns are around 19 percent. Shut up and stop trying to destroy pvp further because you are bad or don't understand how this game works.
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  • How about we try and fix the problem rather than suit your primary weapon.

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  • ......what?

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  • Snipers have been a problem since day one and almost nothing has been done. It's about time they finally fix them and put them in their intended range. Fixing the problem at hand is what's needed. We don't need them to just I gnome the problem so that it better suits you're needs. Snipers are a problem and need to be fixed, end of story.

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  • Edited by Xii Alpha iiXx: 7/15/2016 2:59:25 PM
    But the sniper problem isn't reflected in the numbers. But nerfing them isn't suiting nerfherders and crybabies needs? The nerf people want to snipers is based on selfish needs. I am so against it because of the horrible effects it will have on PvE. I spent 60 plus days in pvp and finally gave up on it. I won't play it anymore. But I do not want to see a nerf because it will be horrible for PvE. If people accept reasonablitiy for dying or that they will die a lot, this crazy sniper nerf post would diminish. The numbers do not show that it is a problem. Until snipers start to outshadow shotguns and many primary weapon classes the problem isn't real.

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  • Just because people don't use them doesn't mean they aren't broken. Many people like myself only pull them out when we are tiered of being paired up against people abusing them. Just look at MW2. Newb Tubes were obviously a problem in that game. The thing is, almost nobody abused them. People actually had respect for others and decided to avoid the OP weapon. More people actually didn't use them than people who did. Numbers aren't always everything. Just like KD doesn't mean a thing when abusing shit like Newb Tubes or Snipers. Snipers are OP because they are effective in any range. They can one shot in close, medium, and close range without any drawbacks. There is almost no flinch, Aim Assist is very high compared to other shooters, and they are more mobile and effective than Shotguns at close range. Close Range Sniping and QuickScoping are the main problems. Remove these and add flinch and they would be fine.

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  • Beta and day one player here. You're right about the cause of snipers being OOB. But the fact IS that they are OOB. No way should someone be able to walk into a mid-range fight....take three scout rifle rounds off their head....and still be able to OHK someone with a head shot. That's not "skill"...that's a broken weapon system because the primary weapon TTK is too long. I agree, the solution is not to nerf sniper rifles (and not ruin PvE by having snipers "descoped"). But you hve to do something, and that something is to buff other weapons back tot he point where they are once against a credible threat to snipers.

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  • I agree. Snipers don't need to be touched. Primaries should be buffed.

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  • If you took time to do research, you wouldn't have posted that.

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  • Edited by Xii Alpha iiXx: 7/15/2016 12:47:47 PM
    June 1st 2016 to now. Xbox Trials Snipers 22.44 - 38.16 Shotguns 14.38- 24. 6 Rift Shotguns 13.62 -15.51 Snipers 11.24 - 13.3 Rumble Shotguns 17.47-23.25 Snipers 4.27 - 8.53 Clash Shotguns 13.19 - 18.04 Snipers 8.48 - 12.3 Salvage shotguns 16.62 -19.42 Snipers 10.15-12.72 Control Shotguns 14.65 17.56 Snipers 7.27 10.92 Skirmish Shotguns 14.46 - 18.3 Snipers 13.74 -19.56 The only play list that Snipers are dominate is Trials. Guardian.gg from June 1st to now. The numbers clearly show snipers aren't nearly an issue people claim them to be. Even the highest sniper peak in Control, salvave, clash and Rift don't overcome the lowest usage of shotguns. I didn't even mention Rumble but that playlist is more of a shotty like playlist. It makes sense. Just like Trials it makes sense that snipers are dominate.

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  • Snipers are bullshit. If you think that changes the fact that they're a problem, you're mistaken. In year one snipers worked fine in PvP, but year 2 things changed and there are many reasons for that Trials Nerfing primaries Lack of CQC year 2 map design Better aim assist/lower scope sniper rifles to work in King's Fall -blam!-ed over Fusion Rifles Nerfed Grenades The list probably keeps going, but the fact is that year one you were getting sniped by a few guardians from specific areas of maps. Behind C on Shores, from the stairs on The Asylum, from the outside rooftop into the hallway on Delphi, atop the awning on Blind Watch, looking across from upper heavy on Twilight, from the water tower on Rusted Lands... Snipers existed and functioned, but could be stratagized against and countered. Year 2 there are no sniper zones on maps because they're effective literally everywhere. It doesn't matter what corner you round in Destiny now, there is more often than not a sniper waiting for you and able to drag scope you from 5 feet just as easily as 200 yards. Anyone that can sit and try to say that sniping in Destiny requires skill is full of shit too. Anyone who's used them in PvP year 2 knows that they're easy mode and the AA means just getting in the vicinity. Snipers don't have to stop, zoom in and aim, they're able to slide out from a corner and drag their reticle without aiming and it's a kill 9 times out of 10. I'm not saying nerfing snipers is the full answer here because again, map design is -blam!-ed year 2 as well and changing other weapons played a part, but the fact is that snipers are the one weapon in Destiny that currently has no equal or counter and that's from almost any distance so yeah, they're -blam!-ed and something needs to change. As for shotguns, until fusions are reverted to 1.1.1 and primaries fixed, those numbers will never change. The last thing is my research comment was not about your numbers, look up my post history, it's linked in a tag.

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  • Edited by Xii Alpha iiXx: 7/15/2016 1:41:53 PM
    First off the aim assist values for year 1 and year 2 are pretty much the same. As well as the scopes expect scopes got zoomed in a tad in Year 2. Nothing major there. Aim assist for some Year 1 Snipers The Supremacy 63 Her Benevolence 40 Shadow of Veils 68 Eye of Sol 61 Black Hammer 14 Average 49.2 Aim assist for Year 2 1000 Yard Stare 56 Defiance of Yasmin 69 Her Fury 54 Eirene 21 Longbow 68 Average 53.6 That covers only a few but the averages are very similar. That 4.4 isn't really going to make or break any hit detection. Second. If Snipers were as big of a Problem as people think they are the numbers would reflect that. If there truly was no counter the majority of the playlist would show more people using them There is only one Playlist that snipers own. Trials. How can people justify a nerf when snipers are only dominate in one playlist? Because it's Trails. People who are good can go into Trials with a shotty and wreck. I know many players who use a shotty when they are "feeling lazy" (their words not mine) Map design in Year 1 was mostly designed for cqc. While there were some bigger maps most maps were shotty heaven. The only acceptable way that snipers could be nerfed is if shotguns were nerfed to the point of being useless. Why? Because shotguns already dominate most og the normal playlist. If snipers were nerfed shotguns would be completely out of control. The only way to fix this imaginary issue without making snipers useless is to buff primary weapon times so kill times weren't god aweful.

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  • Missed the point. The issue is not the number of snipers being used. The problem is that primary weapons have been nerfed to the point where snipers can fight them at practically any range....and not be at any sort of credible disadvantage. I had a guy last IB quickscope me with NLB from freakin' SIDEARM range. Shocked the hell out of me so bad, I just sat there gaping at my TV for a minute. People are tired of putting multiple rounds off the head of snipers----within their own weapons dominant range----only to get one-banged by a sniper. Because primaries kill so slowly, that the sniper had forever to fight through the flinch and drag scope you with a high AA weapon. Peopl.e are tired of the unrealistically high accuracy of these weapons have against moving targets. I'm an average sniper on my BEST day....but I routinely snipe people out of the air with head shots in the Crucible...and on Memento I even cross-mapped a guy in the split second his head appeared between two cars. I felt sorry for the guy. It was such a ridiculous shot, and I'm sure he had to be thinking that I was lagging and shot him THROUGH one of the cars. People are tired of the suppressive effects that multiple snipers running around at all ranges have on other play styles.

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  • But the numbers don't show snipers being a dominate force besides Trials. If snipers were really that broken the usage and kill rate would be much higher. In Control, Salvage, Rift and Class the lowest shotgun kills is still higher than that of the Highest sniper kills. That shows that snipers while frustrating aren't broken. If they were the kills on them would over shadow other weapons. While they do overshadow fusions and side arms that's a completely different issue. When it comes to some of the examples you stated, airborne players are sitting ducks. Unless it's a Titan with Garrison their movement pattern is beyond perdictable. It is easier to sniper a floating warlock then a straffing warlock. Their ability to accurately fire airborne vs the flinch that happens when facing a straffing warlock is much easier. Cross mapping someone with a sniper even it was lucky is just a nice shot. It also is how snipers should be. In Year 1 kill times were on average .26. It was either quickscoping and kill or die. Now with .8 kill times someone who is good at quickscoping because they came from a meta that required quickscoping they will dominate. That is obvious. But, even then, snipers kill less the lowest usage of shottys and primaries over most play list. The mechanics aren't broken. Other aspects of weapons are broken.

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  • Snipers are never a numbers game. In real wars there are two kinds of soldiers who never see the inside of a prison camp. Machine gunners...and snipers. That's because both have the ability to induce such terror and carnage on ordinary infantry, that they many soldiers don't even consider them to be legitmate combatants...and the result is there being many eyewitness accounts of them being captured and summarily executed. Snipers are part terror-weapon....part area-denial weapon. They are so widely used in real wars because a good sniper through a combination of stealth and precision shooting can project a fear of sudden, random death over a such a wide area, that he can pin down a force many, many times larger than himself. In shooter games, a small number of snipers can so thoroughly dominate the game's traffic lanes that they make it difficult-to-impossible for other players to get around the map.....or for people to play other play styles. TLDR: I'm a mid-range player. Put me in a 6v6 match with agains 6 shotgun rushers...and my playstyle is unaffected. I can still get around the map freely. I can still engage at my preferred range. I just need to make sure that I can deal with a rusher looking to close the distance to his own weapons range. But put me in a 6v6 match against 6 snipers...and they lock down the map. If try to close to mid-range, I risk getting head-banged anytime I moving along or cross any long sight line. Even when I do mange to close, I still don't have any advantage because my weapon has been nerfed to the point where most good snipers have the time to fight through any flinch....and have a good change of drag scoping me. ...and every time a weapon crops up that IS an effective counter-sniping weapon, Bungie promptly nerfs it. Make the sniper problem even worse.

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  • While you are correct with the real world application of snipers and their role there is are major differences in Destiny. We have radar. And by now we know where most of the snipers are going to setup. We also have tracking grenades to move people from sniper lanes and or prenade then use vertical space to kill said snipers. We have supers. When I actually played pvp, I knew to slide, duck, and so on constantly. I didn't just do it sniper lanes. I did it every where. If I wanted to get to A to B, I would remain behind cover and limit the lines of sight on me, even when I was sniping. I rarely got sniped in normal playlist. It is much easier to counter and prevent snipers from getting kills. Don't challenge lanes, if I see a red scope, why on earth would I go that way. Unless it's a mid range situation I have no reason to challenge that person. At all. Find a way to get behind them, a way around or prenade them. I know you are there. If I see a red scope and pull out my sniper and choose to challenge and die [i]I made a bad decison.[/i] You can also dance, sit down and wave to see around a corner, I see that you are sitting there hardscope. I can prenade, huge the walls, stay low and gun you down. It's not hard to counter a sniper. If it was the kills on snipers would be much higher. How can you argue snipers are broken when kills with snipers aren't drastic? How can the numbers not be a clear indication that snipers aren't broken?

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  • Its easy to not to get sniped if only one or two people on a 6v6 match re running snipers. The games other weapons have been nerfed to the ppoint where it is not uncommon to have 3 or 4 snipers on a side in 6v6....and you'll even see teams where EVEYRONE is running them. At that point any notion of a "sniper lane" is a laughable absurdity. A "sniper" lane is where THEY decide it is. Round any corner...and you may see three people hardscoping it. Close to the range of your own weapon...and you'll have two snipers start trying to strafe and drag-scope you. You may put down the one....but you aren't going to outgun both....and you aren't going outrun both either. Sniping in PVP right now is broken...and its broken because the game's primary weapons are simply not a credible threat to any decent sniper....and they know it.

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  • I agree that primary weapons need love. But snipers aren't broken. That example clearly isn't happening more than people using shotguns. If in 6v6 most people had snipers equiped, then how can shotgun kills be higher than the highest sniper kills? And in a 2v1 the chances of winning even when you have a 1.5 to 1.9 k/d aren't in your favor. That's also the fault of the one player. Good players learn how to position themselves so only one of those people is a creditable threat. True Vanguard talks about that constantly. Control how the multiple people engage you. While you can't do this every time good players are able to do this. Snipers [i]aren't broken.[/i]

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  • I didn't say "Snipers" are broken. I said "SNIPING" is broken. Its not the sniper rifles fault that Bungie wants this game to have the same TTK as Halo, despite the fact that it has a Call of Duty weapon system. its not the sniper rifle's fault that every other weapon in the game around it has been nerfed into the ground. But the fact is---despite all that-----that SNIPING in this game is badly out of balance, and snipers are badly out of balance as a result. The solution to the problem is not to nerf snipers...but to buff primary weapons back up to being a credible threat to snipers. But you can't fix aproblem if you refuse to acknowledge that problem.

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  • I agree. We see it differently. Like reading the same page in different languages. Things don't always translate the same. I feel that sniping isn't broken. If it was the numbers would be much different. I will say, at least someone gets that this game although made by Bungie isn't anything like Halo. That the weapon system in this game requires faster primary TTK times. Although C.o.D does have faster ttk then even year 1 Destiny. How Year one was setup was great. Snipers couldn't body shot minus Final Round but ttk were slightly slower which allowed for a meta that required headshots. Now we have a meta that kills so frickin slowly whether you use a sniper or a shotgun, your chances at getting a kill with either or is way to high. I'm not sure why people feel nerfing is the answer when. Nerfing is why people think snipers are a problem.

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  • ...and the first thing you have to do whenever you set out to measure something is to determine if the RULER you're using is actually measuring the thing you are looking for. In this case. they don't. Shotguns exert less of an impact on play (unless you're a sniper) than you would expect from their numbers. Snipers exert MUCH MORE of an impact on everyone else, than their numbers would suggest. Depending on the map, as few as three snipers can lockdown that map, and frustrate anyone's efforts to get from one side to the other....or to engage at anything other than long distances. IOW, Snipes can force you to play the game their way....whether you want to or not. Shotgun rushers can't force me to become a shotgun rusher myself. People feel that nerfing is the answer, because that's the first instinct of any PVP player to a frustrating play experience. Nerf it...and make what's pissing me off go away. But nerfing isn't always the best answer. This game will NEVER achieve any balance between primary weapons and ANY of the games special weapons.....as long as the primary weapon TTK is this long. This game will ALWAYS have a special weapon spamming problem until weapons get buffed. In Destiny, If I put two bursts into your head as sniper, you still have enough health to fight through what little flinch (post nerf) I'm able to inflict....and head shot me. In Titanfall, you're dead on the ground and waiting to respawn after two head bursts from a Hemlock If I've spec'ed it for CQC....you might even be dead after the FIRST head burst. Which is why TF doesn' t even have to treat snipers and shotguns as "special" weapons. You can run with either of those as your primary weapon. Good luck...you'll need it if you do.

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