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Edited by suggestedpigeon: 2/23/2016 3:08:38 AM
101

A Fair Compromise on Snipers

Agree (please bump)

214

Disagree (please explain)

188

TL;DR Go to the bold part that says "The Solution" Basically by making only certain scopes available based on sniper impact, players will have to choose between rez sniping with a long range scope or getting closer sniper kills with a lower impact sniper. Calls for sniper nerfs are currently abound. With this much outcry Bungie is likely to respond in some manner. However the solutions the community are posing stand the risk of pretty much dismantling snipers of any functionality in pvp and worse yet some proposals would be even more disastrous in pve. As much as I dislike playing sniper peekaboo I actually don't want to ruin more weapons. Descoping, for instance, would mean the death of snipers if something like a stray AR bullet from across the map hits for 2 damage and causes you to descope. It would also be a major pain in pve where a large amount of damage comes in the form of aoe. Have fun sniping golgoroth when you have to rescope every time a cursed thrall nicks you for some damage. [b]The Problems:[/b] [i]Lack of Clear Design Goals for Sniper Rifles[/i] Bungie's design goals for sniper rifles is the classic "effective in long range, significantly more difficult to use in medium and close ranges" which is honestly as vague as you can make a design goal. Is long range across skyshock? Or is long range from the water tower to the lake spawn on Rusted Lands? Good luck trying to define medium range or even close range. But even with vague definitions of what medium and long distance means there's a pretty solid gut feeling that snipers are still very effective as weapons that you can swap to and pop a head down a small hallway once you see red on your radar. [i] Lack of Variety of Snipers Used [/i] Another problem is the lack of variety in sniper rifles. It's quite easy to see why and it's not because of aim assist. A sniper rifle with 31 impact or higher can one shot kill any guardian even if they have an overshield and max armor or are in a damage resistant super. Any sniper in the 22/16/13/10 impact range is pretty much worthless unless you are specifically going for double taps. There are some outliers like Defiance of Yasmin and Praedyth's Revenge that can't rez snipe but either have a really nice clear scope or are pretty much two shot scout rifles. [i] Only Three Effective Scopes [/i] Ambush SLH25, Shortgaze SLH10, Tacsys SLS15 There are eighteen (legendary) sniper scopes if you include the Hakke and Omolon exclusive ones. Ambush and Shortgaze SLH10 are generally considered the "best scopes" because they have the lowest zoom (4.5x) of all other scopes. Preference between the two is largely dependent upon how much you believe aim assist helps you. Some people swear by the Tacsys (6x) and it pretty much seems like the "I didn't get Ambush or Shortgaze but I like the roll" choice of scope. These three problems combined is what I believe to be the root of the problem with snipers in their current state. Only having a couple of snipers that are immensely powerful in that they can rez/super snipe as well as roll with low zoom scopes while all other snipers get scrapped without a second thought because of their impact stat is a problem. [b] The Solution [/b] 1. Clearly define the role of snipers based on their archetype. 2. High impact snipers can only roll with longer ranged scopes, Low impact snipers can only roll with low range scopes, thereby providing a motivation to use low impact snipers without actually messing with how snipers work. I went on a really neat site that laid out all the scopes and magnifications currently in destiny. 31+ Impact snipers: Their role is to be heavy hitters, capable of taking out powerful foes with overshields and supers with a single headshot from far away. They should actually take more skill to use in medium distance encounters than they currently are. You hold up from a safe place and you take your time. You know map flow like the back of your hand and can predict where enemies will be before they even know. You take advantage of this with every shot and every shot further when they rage and try to get you. You hear a hammer clang or a stormtrance activation and know that your aim is true enough to take them down when they round that corner. Scope choices: Eagleeye SLR20-9x Sightsys SLS20- 8x Longview SLR20-7x Hawkeye SLR15-6x Tacsys SLS15-6x ATB Long Range 5.65x (hakke) WildHawk SLS20-5.5x Aquilla SS4 5.5x (Omolon) Corvo SS2 5.5x (Omolon) ATD Raptor 5.15x (hakke) 29- Impact snipers: This archetype is for your run and gun hyper aggressive snipers. The first to rush into a hallway, aim down sight, and start firing, quickly swapping back and forth between weapons. Body shot one guy, finish with half a mag of last word, start shooting second guy with the remaining last word mag, follow up with a body shot, get another body shot on another guy follow up with the throwing knife. That kind of stuff. Scope Choices: Longview SLR10-5x Viewtac SLH20-5x Yepaki SS2 5x (Omolon) Condor SS2 5x (Omolon) Faucon SS1 4.8x (Omolon) ATA Scout 4.65x (hakke) Shortgaze SLH10- 4.5x Ambush SLH25- 4.5x What I hope that this will achieve for snipers is that players will actually have to make choices based on their playstyles. If they like to run and snipe aggressively they may want to put down the 1000 yard stare and maybe pick up a Tao Hua Yuan with Ambush. If they like to rez snipe and hardscope doorways then they will need to get used to longer ranged scopes and play more conservatively from a bit further away. Personally I think these changes actually help snipers as a whole by playing to their strengths rather than outright nerfing them into submission. Please bump to support the thread.

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  • Eh, let's resurrect this thread.

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  • While this is a reasonable argument, it's not realistic and isn't applied in any other shooter that I've played. Everyone in those games had to deal with people being able to use whatever scope and having to try and adapt in order to counter this. Therefore, everyone in this game should do the same thing, learn to counter it and adapt.

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  • [quote]TL;DR Go to the bold part that says "The Solution" Basically by making only certain scopes available based on sniper impact, players will have to choose between rez sniping with a long range scope or getting closer sniper kills with a lower impact sniper. Calls for sniper nerfs are currently abound. With this much outcry Bungie is likely to respond in some manner. However the solutions the community are posing stand the risk of pretty much dismantling snipers of any functionality in pvp and worse yet some proposals would be even more disastrous in pve. As much as I dislike playing sniper peekaboo I actually don't want to ruin more weapons. Descoping, for instance, would mean the death of snipers if something like a stray AR bullet from across the map hits for 2 damage and causes you to descope. It would also be a major pain in pve where a large amount of damage comes in the form of aoe. Have fun sniping golgoroth when you have to rescope every time a cursed thrall nicks you for some damage. [b]The Problems:[/b] [i]Lack of Clear Design Goals for Sniper Rifles[/i] Bungie's design goals for sniper rifles is the classic "effective in long range, significantly more difficult to use in medium and close ranges" which is honestly as vague as you can make a design goal. Is long range across skyshock? Or is long range from the water tower to the lake spawn on Rusted Lands? Good luck trying to define medium range or even close range. But even with vague definitions of what medium and long distance means there's a pretty solid gut feeling that snipers are still very effective as weapons that you can swap to and pop a head down a small hallway once you see red on your radar. [i] Lack of Variety of Snipers Used [/i] Another problem is the lack of variety in sniper rifles. It's quite easy to see why and it's not because of aim assist. A sniper rifle with 31 impact or higher can one shot kill any guardian even if they have an overshield and max armor or are in a damage resistant super. Any sniper in the 22/16/13/10 impact range is pretty much worthless unless you are specifically going for double taps. There are some outliers like Defiance of Yasmin and Praedyth's Revenge that can't rez snipe but either have a really nice clear scope or are pretty much two shot scout rifles. [i] Only Three Effective Scopes [/i] Ambush SLH25, Shortgaze SLH10, Tacsys SLS15 There are eighteen (legendary) sniper scopes if you include the Hakke and Omolon exclusive ones. Ambush and Shortgaze SLH10 are generally considered the "best scopes" because they have the lowest zoom (4.5x) of all other scopes. Preference between the two is largely dependent upon how much you believe aim assist helps you. Some people swear by the Tacsys (6x) and it pretty much seems like the "I didn't get Ambush or Shortgaze but I like the roll" choice of scope. These three problems combined is what I believe to be the root of the problem with snipers in their current state. Only having a couple of snipers that are immensely powerful in that they can rez/super snipe as well as roll with low zoom scopes while all other snipers get scrapped without a second thought because of their impact stat is a problem. [b] The Solution [/b] 1. Clearly define the role of snipers based on their archetype. 2. High impact snipers can only roll with longer ranged scopes, Low impact snipers can only roll with low range scopes, thereby providing a motivation to use low impact snipers without actually messing with how snipers work. I went on a really neat site that laid out all the scopes and magnifications currently in destiny. 31+ Impact snipers: Their role is to be heavy hitters, capable of taking out powerful foes with overshields and supers with a single headshot from far away. They should actually take more skill to use in medium distance encounters than they currently are. You hold up from a safe place and you take your time. You know map flow like the back of your hand and can predict where enemies will be before they even know. You take advantage of this with every shot and every shot further when they rage and try to get you. You hear a hammer clang or a stormtrance activation and know that your aim is true enough to take them down when they round that corner. Scope choices: Eagleeye SLR20-9x Sightsys SLS20- 8x Longview SLR20-7x Hawkeye SLR15-6x Tacsys SLS15-6x ATB Long Range 5.65x (hakke) WildHawk SLS20-5.5x Aquilla SS4 5.5x (Omolon) Corvo SS2 5.5x (Omolon) ATD Raptor 5.15x (hakke) 29- Impact snipers: This archetype is for your run and gun hyper aggressive snipers. The first to rush into a hallway, aim down sight, and start firing, quickly swapping back and forth between weapons. Body shot one guy, finish with half a mag of last word, start shooting second guy with the remaining last word mag, follow up with a body shot, get another body shot on another guy follow up with the throwing knife. That kind of stuff. Scope Choices: Longview SLR10-5x Viewtac SLH20-5x Yepaki SS2 5x (Omolon) Condor SS2 5x (Omolon) Faucon SS1 4.8x (Omolon) ATA Scout 4.65x (hakke) Shortgaze SLH10- 4.5x Ambush SLH25- 4.5x What I hope that this will achieve for snipers is that players will actually have to make choices based on their playstyles. If they like to run and snipe aggressively they may want to put down the 1000 yard stare and maybe pick up a Tao Hua Yuan with Ambush. If they like to rez snipe and hardscope doorways then they will need to get used to longer ranged scopes and play more conservatively from a bit further away. Personally I think these changes actually help snipers as a whole by playing to their strengths rather than outright nerfing them into submission. Please bump to support the thread.[/quote] No thanks, id rather have them make other scopes better or make more

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  • What if you like long range scopes on low impact snipers

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  • Shut a -blam!- up :) ..I..

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  • [b]Skill-based matchmaking [/b] One reason that may be overlooked towards the dominance of snipers is skill based match-making. Chances are if you're good with a sniper, you will be up against others that are good with snipers. Many may disagree with this, but shotgun rushing is also a good "intro to crucible" mechanic where as its a great method to start moving up on the leader-board while getting adjusted to PvP. My early days of PvP, i would get so frustrated by getting clipped left and right that I grabbed my shotgun, camped a corner and waited till the next sap came around. See a sniper and charge at him with felwinters. [b]Snipers are a high-skill weapon. They take practice and shots like quick-scoping are either obtained through practice or rare luck. The better you play, the more likely you'll be in a lobby full of good snipers - the more likely you'll be quick scoped without the right defense. [/b] i think players need to ask where they were when they got sniped and caused them to go full tilt. Was it a map like shores of time when the team controls the B/C half? Were you carrying a shotgun or a hand-cannon? Did you keep trying to rush them to get your revenge? Most good snipers can attest that the increased flinch factor is significant in this meta. [b]That 4 MIDA shots can be more effective than 1000 yard stare and high impact shot-gunners still blink, bounce and crouch around the map without their primaries[/b]. Because you're getting sniped more often is because you're playing better people more often.

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    3 Replies
    • Quit bitching about snipers they haven't changed since year 1 shut the -blam!- up about it and stay out of sniper lanes

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      • What they need to do is nerf body shot damage on snipers so that they are two shot kill. They now reward precision shots which can reduce the a using of body shot then one shot from your primary.

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        • Trust me when I say that it won't make that much of a difference. I can get close distance headshot a with the Ice Breaker and Black Spindle. You think it makes a huge difference, but it will barely affect a semi-decent sniper

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        • Edited by [SiN]大き氷: 3/1/2016 2:23:38 AM
          A neat idea if they don't do anything about ammo, if nothing else. Though I'm always going to prefer that special ammo changes. That is, act like heavy did before.

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        • Just bumping again ;)

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        • Just no rez snipes every thing else is a matter of skill and preference

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        • I think that if any player who is trying to snipe that ends up loosing his Shield, any damage taken afterwards always forces a player out ADS.

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        • This guy gets it. Well said my man. I posted today about how bungee essentially forces players to use 1 specific weapon per class.

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        • Make a precision damage threshold, where the sniper unscopes, ie. 60 damage within ~1.5 seconds removes the sniper from scope.

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        • Bump

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        • I'm a sniper and think this is a good balance

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        • Bump

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        • Snipers ruin the pvp anyway. Just sitting there and wait someone runs into their scope. Delete the snipers from pvp like that players need to fight with their oponents again. Snipers are the biggest noobs and nothing will change that.

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        • Yeah, this sounds good.

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        • Snipers do not need a nerf the real snipers that need nerfed are shotguns...again

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          • Why wasn't this a problem in year 1? It's because of shotguns and fusion rifles were king (Fusions rifles to some degree), now that they have been nerfed, snipers are top. Buff primaries. I read on a forum post to buff shotguns (Comzo replied and said he will pass this feedback along), and buff fusion rifles and we will have our problem fixed. The idea of only having long zoom scopes on high impact snipers are ridiculous. Not to mention unnecessary, because I, like many people, don't want to be forced into using low archetypes sniper so they can succeed. I want the option of if I want to two-tap to the body someone fast with the low-Impact sniper or if I rather go for headshots so if a roaming super comes along I can kill it. Lack of snipers? Well, I am so sorry that I can't use my LDR in Trials, or my still piercer on my titan. It's the only sniper that everyone can use on any class and that doesn't have weird scopes like the omolon one. Honestly, if you get sniped close range, then it's just that the other person is better and they outplayed you. It's is still hard to use to the sniper as it doesn't pull your trigger towards the enemy, if you got quick scoped or no scoped then the other player has a quick response time and has practiced a lot to perfect it. It's all muscle memory. Like shotguns you get used to it and you can do crazy things. In sweaties I see more shotguns than snipers so that in itself should tell you something. A bad player will always complain and whine about unnecessary things because the better player outplayed them, but a great player will learn to counter-attack the opponent. If you want my advice, stop running out of corners without checking first. Stop challenging a sniper when he is set up and is waiting for you to peak. Play smarter.

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            • Edited by Darches: 2/25/2016 11:28:34 PM
              BTW you're wrong about scopes. The good scopes are... [u]Close(r) quarters scopes[/u] [b]Ambush SLH25[/b] (4.5x zoom, -15 range, +20 stability, +10 reload, +12 handling, -10 aim assist) Trades much aim assist/range for stability/handling. Popular among pros. [b]ShortGaze SLH10[/b] (4.5x zoom, +5 range, +5 reload/handling, +20 aim assist) The gold standard of low zoom scopes. No real drawbacks. I'm relating other scopes to this one. [b]LongView SLR10[/b] (5x zoom, +8 range, -5 stability, +5 reload/handling, +30 aim assist) Slightly more zoom, more aim assist. More versatile/superior at longer ranges. Considered better than Shortgaze by some. [u]Mid range scopes[/u] [b]TacSys SLS15[/b] (6x zoom, -10 range, +15 stability, +5 reload/handling, +15 aim assist) Trades a bit of range/aim assist for more zoom/stability. Best combo of aim assist/stability. Will perform better at long range than a low zoom scope. [u]Long Range scopes[/u] [b]SightSys SLS20[/b] (8x zoom, +15 range, +8 stability, +35 aim assist) Superior zoom/range/aim assist. The king of long range combat. [u] Omolon scopes[/u] [b]Faucon SS1[/b] (4.8x zoom) Omolon low zoom option. Probably has +?? handling and +0 aim assist. The Omolon snipers tend to have poor aim assist to begin with, so beware! [u]Hakke scopes[/u] Doesn't matter, Hakke's weapons are basically garbage minus Arminius-D.

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            • To long writings to accept anyone

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              • I just use shotguns and kill them up close.

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              • Snipers are fine the way they are. Stop trying to ruin them because of pvp.

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