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originally posted in: Iraq requests US air support
6/19/2014 2:14:57 PM
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I honestly don't see the point in trying to intervene anymore. We aren't going to stop the thousands of years of sectarian conflict in the middle East, and we wasted way too much of GDP over the last decade thinking we could. Let them figure it out.
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  • I have never agreed with anything you've said more than I agree now.

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  • What if the goal isn't to "stop the thousands of years of sectarian conflict in the middle East", but to insure that the conflict stays over there and not here? What happens if ISIS takes Iraq? Think they'll stop there? How long until someone over there thinks it a good idea to lob a few nukes? Iran may feel the need if Iraq falls to "radical" Sunni Muslims. - Der

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    [quote] What happens if ISIS takes Iraq? Think they'll stop there? How long until someone over there thinks it a good idea to lob a few nukes? Iran may feel the need if Iraq falls to "radical" Sunni Muslims. - Der[/quote] Taking and holding land are two different things entirely. ISIS is dangerous yes, but it is also at war with virtually every state and non state actor around it. Its troop numbers are relatively slim and it is reliant upon expectations that Sunnis will join it and disregard its harsh treatment of Sunnis and non-Sunnis alike. You're extrapolating a bit too far with Iran's reaction. It is highly doubtful that Iran would resort to developing nuclear weapons to deal with ISIS. If it were to be developing nukes, the rationale would not be for such a narrow and unfeasible goal.

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  • [quote]It is highly doubtful that Iran would resort to developing nuclear weapons to deal with ISIS. If it were to be developing nukes, the rationale would not be for such a narrow and unfeasible goal.[/quote] Iran is developing nukes as we speak. If their resolve matches their rhetoric I wouldn't put anything past them. - Der

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    So Iran is without a doubt pursuing nuclear weapons? Lol Nuclear weapons are completely useless in fighting insurgencies/restive populations. Ask South Africa

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  • They work wonders as deterrents. - Der

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  • Edited by DB5: 6/19/2014 6:56:46 PM
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    Against state actors they do. And even then only to an extent

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  • [quote]"radical"[/quote]What the hell is this supposed to mean? They ARE radicals. They're marching through the streets straight to Baghdad like it's some sort of crusade.

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  • Could easily turn it around and ask what happens if we stop ISIS from taking Iraq and one of the 40 other groups waiting in the wings does the same? It's never ending. So ISIS takes over and suddenly we're back to Sunni control of Iraq bordering many Shia neighbors that hate them. Back to the norm before invaded in the first place.

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  • Shia neighbors? Iraq is a Shia majority country. ISIS is going to force them to convert or slaughter them.

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  • [quote]Shia neighbors? Iraq is a Shia majority country. ISIS is going to force them to convert or slaughter them.[/quote] It may have a Shia majority, but Iraq had been a Sunni controlled country until we deposed Saddam. Which is why I said back to the norm. As for slaughter, it doesn't really matter. Either Sunni and Shia continue to slaughter each other as they have, or we kill one side for them. Either way, lots of people will die and they'll just hate each other all the more for it.

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  • America has to get involved. It's pretty much America's fault.

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  • Not really. They are the ones murdering each other after being given a real chance at peaceful self-determination. America's big mistake was in not realizing that the sectarian mobs are far worse than the dictators we deposed in the ME ever were. Saddam was a terrible person. So was Gaddafi. So is Assad. But, it turns out, they are rather tame compared to the the various sects they oppressed. We really don't have any business jumping into the middle of a thousand year old fight they aren't willing to let go. Let them sort it out the way they have over the centuries. Not worth the time and lives we spend thinking we can change it.

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  • [quote]America's big mistake was in not realizing that the sectarian mobs are far worse than the dictators we deposed in the ME ever were.[/quote]That's exactly what I just said. Not to mention America put Saddam in power. [quote]We really don't have any business jumping into the middle of a thousand year old fight they aren't willing to let go.[/quote]Nothing to argue about there. What we shouldn't let is anybody start committing mass genocide.

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  • Edited by Obi Wan Stevobi: 6/19/2014 9:41:15 PM
    ISIS doesn't seem to be creating a higher death tool than already existed. They have been killing each other pretty heavily even while we were there, we just don't hear much about fights that US troops aren't involved in. Several reports put civilian casualties from sectarian violence in the hundreds of thousands, and even millions, since 2007. So yeah, ISIS is violently killing people who don't match their ideology, but so is everyone else there, so it's hard to say we should intervene with them and not every other party involved. It's part of a greater conflict between Sunni and Shia that will continue no matter what we do.

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  • [quote]It's part of a greater conflict between Sunni and Shia that will continue no matter what we do.[/quote]That's true. But these other groups you speak of, they don't have the manpower, gear, and resources ISIS has. They're a much larger threat.

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  • Edited by Der Todesengel: 6/19/2014 2:51:42 PM
    Whack-a-Mole. Deal with them as they come up. What-if isn't a good way to run foreign policy. We made a mistake leaving Iraq, they weren't ready. [quote] So ISIS takes over and suddenly we're back to Sunni control of Iraq bordering many Shia neighbors that hate them.[/quote] I'd rather not have that particular brand of Islam in charge of anything. It's possible that once they had control they would moderate. After all, ruling is more difficult then just murdering people who don't agree with you, but I won't be holding my breathe. - Der

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  • I guess it depends on how many trillions in debt you're willing to add, and how many American kids you want to die for the idea that democracy might eventually work in Iraq. We've spent at minimum $1.7 trillion so far, with ~4,500 US soldiers dead, and we can't really say we've accomplished much of anything. There is no end in sight if we decide to play whack-a-mole, and we aren't even sure which side we even want to take, because there are people we really don't like in every faction.

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  • Eh, what's a trillion more, we have deficits as far as the eye can see anyway. - Der

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