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Edited by MC 077 Lasombra: 11/11/2021 5:41:43 AM
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It won’t be a race. The Final Shape is what still survives when everything else is dead. That’s why it’s called The [i]Final[/i] Shape. A race that exists now, when there are still plenty of species kicking, can not be called the Final Shape according to Sword Logic. It’ll be the Winnower. It’s the final dlc, so it can’t be a minion. That’s why the Taken versions are considered to the final form for species that get Took. Being Taken is basically the Winnower/its power possessing you. So they are perfected by the grace of the Winnower. The Winnower thinks whatever the Final Shape will be will come from it’s ideal. Which it’s hoping will be itself. Make zero mistake. The Sword Logic demands everything fight until only one is left standing. Which means whatever minions it has are meant to be killed. By us, it or someone else. So since the Final Shape is the end of the Dark and Light Saga, we have to finish off the big baddie. This happens on Io (shown in the base D2 ending) and I’m betting it’ll follow Ulan-Tans theory. Why else Io, where they added the Ulan-Tan cave. All the other theories were dropped in game. I called it years ago and will stick with it. The Gardner is already dead, so why not take the Winnower with it out of the cosmos. That’s why the first scene in D2’s ending, before the final showdown, shows the Dark and Light alone together.
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  • [quote]It won’t be a race. The Final Shape is what still survives when everything else is dead. That’s why it’s called The Final Shape.[/quote] An interesting theory, but nothing to actually substantiate that claim. The idea behind the final shape, left open, is to be able to fit the criteria for the species involved. The best way to say this is the word race which is a population within a species (in this case any species) that fits the mold of the final shape. We'll see if your theory pans out to be correct. [quote]can not be called the Final Shape according to Sword Logic.[/quote] It's ironically the exact opposite if you follow the definition of [url=https://omniversal-battlefield.fandom.com/wiki/Sword_Logic]Sword Logic.[/url] All the final shape is? A state of being. You can be of bomb logic and the final shape or of sword logic and the final shape. The idea is that of struggling to exist specifically tied to the Ascendant plane. [quote]It’ll be the Winnower.[/quote] That's the battle to end light versus dark. It's possible the winnower faction will be helpful and/or the final shape (too soon and lack of details), but it's also possible they are the ones seeking the final shape. [quote]Winnower/its power possessing you.[/quote] Stasis can be argued to be more in line with the final shape than Taken. The winnower is a being we need to keep tabs on, but the neutrality of one and the finality of another shape I think has yet to be determined. I think cosmic forces are yet to be revealed and will determine what is missing. [quote]The Sword Logic demands everything fight until only one is left standing.[/quote] Actually sword logic says to exist is to struggle. Big difference. You don't need an opponent for that which is a clue as to why the Hive has power? But not enough power to defeat us. You change that logic to be the meaning of existence though? And now you have a problem with the capabilities of letting the cosmos change you from light or dark perspectives entirely. [quote]So since the Final Shape is the end of the Dark and Light Saga, we have to finish off the big baddie.[/quote] Too soon to tell. And so we end back at the question: [quote]Well, what would you ideally want in the final race to be presented if you could fight them tomorrow?[/quote]

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  • 1. I don’t see any support for your rebuttal. Meanwhile the fact that the Darkness and it forces have, for literal eons, expressed the Sword Logic in only violence, supports me 100%. It is a philosophy, for the most part. Sword Logic is cosmically law only acknowledges the contest and its results, regardless of the nature of the contest. I mean show me where they allowed anyone to survive that couldn’t beat them in a fight? Where did they have a contest that wasn’t fighting? Not one single instance. There is no demonstration of the Logic being applied in any way besides violence. Even Savathuns trickery is a means to enact violence and commit genocide. Her subverting it to allow deception as a method shows Law and Philosophy aren’t the same. The end result has had a single consistent outcome. Every contest between civilizations ends in extermination. Contests between Hive leadership ends in violence. 2. “Out in the world we ask a simple, true question. A question like, can I kill you, can I rip your world apart? Tell me the truth. For if I don’t ask, someone will ask it of me.” “Those who do not exist cannot suffer and are of no account to any viable ethics. If the true path to goodness is the elimination of suffering, then only those who must exist can be allowed to exist” - that is the sword Logic. Now if the Sword Logic says you have to ask the question “can I kill you” as opposed to “can you survive along next to me”, I don’t see how I’m wrong. I think your mistaking the forces of the Winnower working together with there being no ‘fight to the last survivor’ mentality. Which is patently wrong. Hive history is littered with in fighting. Even when they were in a bad position. You’re also ignoring the fact where Bomb Logic has no place in Sword Logic. Bomb Logic is meant to the opposite of Sword Logic. Sword Logic dictates a Final Shape. Bomb Logic excludes that possibility. How did you think Bomb Logic could fulfill Sword Logic final shape when it’s polar opposite to it. 3. It either has to die or be contained. And the BoS shows containment only results in the cycle repeating. So no, it’s not a leap at all. The Winnower wants to burn the cosmos. Only an idiot doesn’t kill or else utterly disable such a threat. Especially after being proven that containment isn’t the solution. 4. You’re question is inherently flawed because you are saying a race when we have no evidence there is a race that makes up the Final Shape. You cited no support for it. I’d like you to hold yourself to the same standard you hold others. As for what the big bad minions will be. Humans. Probably scooped up a long time ago. I was always curious why a god that existed before humans pattern existed in the Flower game, choose to make statues of Humans.

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  • [quote]1. I don’t see any support for your rebuttal. Meanwhile the fact that the Darkness and it forces have, for literal eons, expressed the Sword Logic in only violence, supports me 100%.[/quote] The Sword Logic is a logical form worshipped to mean existence is to struggle. That doesn't mean existence is to conflict like the Hive practice. It merely shows their understanding is based on struggling under the weight of Fundament. Your theory is fine, but it's limited in its scope. I keep a broader perspective and look for better examples to detail this out. [quote]Sword Logic is cosmically law only acknowledges the contest and its results, regardless of the nature of the contest.[/quote] One change: It isn't cosmic. The power of the cosmos is a lot higher than simply gaining strength in reality through the win of sword logic. Paracasusal power has limitations on the reality bounds. The only form, to date, which is more powerful than sword logic is ahamkara wish magic which makes what couldn't exist before possibly exist today like how throne worlds can be formed. The ahamkara is the most powerful being to date with that power. [quote]I mean show me where they allowed anyone to survive that couldn’t beat them in a fight? Where did they have a contest that wasn’t fighting?[/quote] In the earliest days of Fundament, they were incapable of combatting all the forces which were killing them. The factions which split and ultimately allowed the three sisters to take power before meeting the Worm gods is a prime example of how Taox could very well become an ally through the understanding of humanity and bomb logic. Remember that until we actually met her? Caiatl was seen to be like her father, but then saw us win at the proving grounds ritual combat and now has a truce with us. The old barriers about sword logic are also something of a gateway for Hive and guardians to work together and yes, the conflict Taox has been losing at? Is because she has been searching for a group to be aligned with. Strip sword logic down to the core and you still have losers who don't want to die. They will gladly take new form (touch of malice, whisper of the worm, etc.) to avoid it and thus gain in the form of bomb logic all of a sudden. The big question about sword and bomb logic is what events, wish, etc. occurred to allow those powers to manifest. Humanity has a shared history somewhere along those lines and it's not present yet what that past connection is... but it is there. [quote]Not one single instance.[/quote] Taox. She runs from the fighting and merely shows intelligence to those she meets in exchange for sparing her. Nokris is another btw. [quote]There is no demonstration of the Logic being applied in any way besides violence.[/quote] Taox has actually done the exact opposite. With no worm of her own and long lifespan? She has never had access to para casual power. She has a higher form of intellect and capability to recognize what she needs to do to survive much like bomb logic for humanity allows. [quote]Even Savathuns trickery is a means to enact violence and commit genocide.[/quote] Any current Hive, including Savathun, utilize their worm to gain their strength. Savathun source strength is her brood to get her worm sacrifices higher and the curse on the dreaming city. It is less an act of violence on her part and more on enacting tricks to gain power. She, herself, has not killed so far as we actually know. Her power lies in her formation of the tools to utilize by her brood. The genocide of her brood you indicate? Is still just a token for the worm to not devour them. Big difference. There are no brood members I have seen thus far which would indicate they are about conflict and more about using an excessive force coming from an opponent against them. The choices are still VERY much there which can be eliminated. Taox has no such claim to a worm and is, therefore, free of this restraint or need. [quote]Every contest between civilizations ends in extermination.[/quote] Humanity does not yet hold the capability to traverse worlds the same as Hive. Guardians/Worm Hive with direct assistance from other beings do. Therefore no. There is a sizable barrier preventing any conflict besides the smaller one from occurring. You would have a para casual barrier be torn down to achieve the losses you are speaking about. Humanity is not so easily defeated and the hive is clearly in the same boat. [quote]Now if the Sword Logic says you have to ask the question “can I kill you” as opposed to “can you survive along next to me”, I don’t see how I’m wrong.[/quote] The sword logic above is incorrect because you still gain power from using other forms of logic without violence. Guardians do not need to practice violence to have a super for example, merely access to the light. Hive magic, so long as your worm is satisfied, have the same bargain point. This is the issue with Taox. The sword logic has not stopped her from using her observational skills to gain power and evade the Hive sisters for centuries now. She has access to sword logic without the worm. This is troubling because clearly, she taught a different approach about the necessity for violence (and lost), but still has enough to extend conflict for hundreds of years during the Books of Sorrow details. This means the sword logic is not correct. Just because you can be killed doesn't mean your existence is suffering based and likewise that doesn't mean your non-existence is not suffering based. The actual definition for Sword logic in the Hive currently is a logical fallacy (translation: a statement that seems to be true until you apply the rules of logic. Then, you realize that it's not.)

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  • Edited by MC 077 Lasombra: 11/12/2021 2:39:59 PM
    1. The Sword Logic is the philosophy of the Winnower, based on its role in the Garden. It’s explained in BoS and Unveiling. It’s also a law of the cosmos, that’s why you get strength from killing, learning and reaching milestones. There is no open mind. It’s already been defined and displayed in practice. 2. It is cosmic. If Sword Logic wasn’t cosmic then it wouldn’t apply to things that don’t follow it or the Darkness. It may only apply to paracausal beings but post Dark and Light, the Sword Logic won’t go away. Unless you think we won’t gain strength from killing anymore? As the Gardner said, paracausality is a cosmic law that can’t be tampered with. Unveiling again. 3. Taox escaped. She was not allowed to live. They tried to hunt her down and kill her. Failing to kill someone isn’t allowing them to live. That’s Sore loser argument there. Taox knowing humanity doesn’t make her an ally either. All she can do is tell us about Fundament and the Ecuemene. She’s been in stasis the whole time since, as she was close to the end of her life to begin with. Also, Bomb Logic isn’t “learned” it’s a principle. Complexity. Opposite to Swords simplicity. It isn’t a skill to be learned. It also doesn’t apply to non paracausal entities. You seem to be confusing the philosophy with the cosmic law. 4. I don’t recall saying the Sword Logic was right either. It’s both a belief system and a cosmic law. The belief can be wrong all it wants, the cosmic law can’t be changed. This explained in Unveiling. 5. Oh and trying to rebut my point about the clash of civilizations solely by citing humanity’s inability to travel is insane. For one, we can. And two it ignores the entire history of Destiny lore. I was talking about adherents to sword Logic. They don’t let other civilizations survive. Humanity doesn’t follow it so why did you bring it up? The philosophy is more complex then the cosmic law. Remember in unveiling the winnower said it was responsible for our evolution and cited the sea floor creature eating another? That’s the law. Survival of the fittest. So on that note, since you seem confused and ill informed and then pulling crap that like certainly doesn’t endear you any. I’m losing patience with this.

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  • [quote]The Sword Logic is the philosophy of the Winnower[/quote] There is a theory about this, but no, it's not definitive yet. The Winnower is a bigger player faction which, for all the damage to its philosophies being proven wrong? Has allowed a repeat cycle which has occurred before. The only question I have for the winnower faction at this point is where does it see an opening. Because that is a path we should follow to gain insight. [quote] It’s explained in BoS and Unveiling. It’s also a law of the cosmos[/quote] Took me a while to sort through this too. Go back and reread BoS for example. It's defining the philosophy. Not curtailing it to the actual primordial concept it was and still is for Taox and the proto-Hive. All of our knowledge only stems from one pathway while Taox and Nokris have supplanted other knowledge from other aspects of Sword Logic. It's not literal to a sword or killing to gain that power. This is why it is a logical fallacy as I said. We need to know what we don't know which is why Nokris is just as vital still and Taox moreso. [quote] It is cosmic. If Sword Logic wasn’t cosmic then it wouldn’t apply to things that don’t follow it or the Darkness.[/quote] You are missing the point. Bomb logic, sword logic, and loop logic (IE curses like the dreaming city) are incomplete. Not one aspect encompasses what can be achieved from both ahamkara and guardian establishments already. The clue missing here is what will combine, overpower, or diminish all of that logic above into a final shape. The questions are still the same: why has the loop logic been at play our entire guardian lives? Why is it sword logic that has gained the power from the defeated? Why is it the complexity of the bomb logic has LOST to the sword and loop logic so many times? Nokris, Xol, and Savathun have the second answer: Loop logic works because it combines the complexity of bomb logic to ensure it continues TO the end result of sword logic being more powerful. These logical formations are very well combined. Almost like they have done this before. Where have we seen this popular culture-wise? The Matrix. Entirely different from that trilogy, but the end result of this is still interesting that we are not fully aware of why sword logic is still a thing. It clearly isn't the power of bomb logic. We have defeated sword logic time and again with NO throne world or power gained from it. Merely a light focus which made bomb logic stronger. [quote]As the Gardner said, paracausality is a cosmic law that can’t be tampered with. Unveiling again.[/quote] The quote you are referring to doesn't say that. It says: [quote]“No,” the gardener said, “I am the growth and preservation of complexity. I will make myself into a law in the game.”[/quote] Paracasaul power has lost before btw. Ontological weapons are reality warping weapons that have defeated paracasual power in guardians. This is a topic for another time. [quote]3. Taox escaped. She was not allowed to live. They tried to hunt her down and kill her.[/quote] lol. Taox has successfully erased her trail. The sisters do not even know if she is alive nor any other information regarding her and only that she wasn't on the planet they conquered. This, again, begs me to question why they gave up that search because I have a hunch Savathun is using it currently. [quote]Taox knowing humanity doesn’t make her an ally either.[/quote] We won't know that until that information reveals itself to us. [quote]It isn’t a skill to be learned. It also doesn’t apply to non paracausal entities.[/quote] Red War. Hawthorne and any lightless guardians who survived show this not to be correct. You are incorrect if you think a paracausal force cannot be harmed from a non-paracasausal one or that actions taken don't impact the overall game. [quote]Also, Bomb Logic isn’t “learned” it’s a principle.[/quote] When we defeated Oryx the Gardener statement became reality and, in a small fashion, powerful enough to gain from sword logic. The fact it became a rule outside of other rules means we are the ones meant to upset the natural order of rules within that game. The winnower does not have that power yet as far as we have seen deployed. [quote]4. I don’t recall saying the Sword Logic was right either. It’s both a belief system and a cosmic law. The belief can be wrong all it wants, the cosmic law can’t be changed.[/quote] The cosmic law of existence is to struggle is a principle chiefly and foremost. It's not cosmic law. That's the difference. If ahamkara made a wish occur, for example, which erased struggle from all existence? Your mind would still find SOMETHING to indicate struggle. That's the bare bones issue at play. The logic Destiny uses is not logical. These are choices that will continue regardless of influence. The question regarding the final shape: What is missing currently from those choices which has already been used before to defeat the gardener forces and what would you like that to entail?

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  • Edited by MC 077 Lasombra: 11/13/2021 3:41:32 AM
    You wrote a lot of stuff that makes no canonical sense at all.

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  • Edited by PhNx Hellfire: 11/13/2021 4:58:36 AM
    I get the complexity I'm explaining up there, but if you don't get it a better choice of words would have simply been: I don't get it. Have a good one. Back to the original question then: [quote]What would your list include?[/quote]

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  • It’s not complex, it’s total head cannon. I already answered that question by the way.

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  • Edited by PhNx Hellfire: 11/15/2021 10:23:02 PM
    [quote]It’s not complex, it’s total head cannon.[/quote] The lore is steeped in a lot of overall guesswork, in-game dialogue, and out-of-game lore. There is no... definitive collection of facts that go into detail about the similarities and differences between expansions, games, or otherwise. It's a solid theory after theory that is supported based on collaborative works. As I said before, we don't need to discuss this. It's complex for even me to say that everything is pieced together perfectly. We would need a fantasy novel to cover all the ground the Destiny universe has put out there. [quote]I already answered that question by the way.[/quote] [quote]As for what the big bad minions will be. Humans. Probably scooped up a long time ago.[/quote] [quote]What would your list include?[/quote] And what about ancient humans would you like to see?

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